IRC log of tagmem on 2003-10-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:47:04 [RRSAgent]
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19:55:20 [Ian-BOS]
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19:56:00 [Ian-BOS]
Unfortunately, not.
20:01:05 [Ian-BOS]
May action items:
20:01:09 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has now started
20:01:10 [Ian-BOS]
20:01:14 [Ian-BOS]
Action IJ 2003/10/08: Add ed note to abstract that the abstract will be rewritten.
20:01:16 [Zakim]
20:01:19 [Ian-BOS]
Action IJ 2003/10/08: Draft good practice note for 4.4.
20:01:26 [Zakim]
20:01:32 [Ian-BOS]
Action IJ 2003/10/08: In 2.4, add story that shows how two classes of error can arise (inconsistency v. no frag id semantics defined). Frame story in terms of secondary resources.
20:01:38 [Ian-BOS]
Action IJ 2003/10/08: Split persistency section into two and move http redirection para there, with appropriate rewrites.
20:01:42 [DanCon]
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20:01:46 [Ian-BOS]
Action IJ 2003/10/08: Update OWL ref since in CR
20:01:50 [Ian-BOS]
Action IJ 2003/10/08: Add a future work section for identifiers that the TAG expects to summarize various URI schemes and what agents can infer from the scheme.
20:01:57 [Ian-BOS]
Not done:
20:02:04 [Ian-BOS]
Action IJ 2003/10/08: Starting from DO's diagram, create a diagram where the relationships and terms are linked back to the context where defined. Ensure that the relationships are in fact used in the narrative; any gaps identified? With DO, work on term relationship diagram.
20:02:06 [Ian-BOS]
(But progress)
20:02:08 [Zakim]
20:02:20 [Zakim]
20:02:24 [Stuart]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:02:24 [Zakim]
+Stuart; got it
20:03:24 [Zakim]
20:04:02 [ChrisL]
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20:04:08 [Stuart]
Zakim, who is here?
20:04:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see David_Orchard, ??P1, Stuart, DanC, TimBL
20:04:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisL, DanCon, Ian-BOS, RRSAgent, Zakim, Stuart, Norm
20:04:37 [DanCon]
20:04:42 [Stuart]
zakim, ??p1 is Paul
20:04:42 [Zakim]
+Paul; got it
20:04:46 [DanCon]
Zakim, Regrets hold Ian
20:04:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'Regrets hold Ian', DanCon
20:04:52 [DanCon]
Zakim, Regrets holds IanJacobs
20:04:52 [Zakim]
sorry, DanCon, I do not recognize a party named 'Regrets'
20:05:09 [DanCon]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
20:05:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see David_Orchard, Paul, Stuart, DanC, TimBL
20:05:34 [ChrisL]
zakim, dial chris-work
20:05:34 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisL; the call is being made
20:05:35 [Zakim]
20:05:56 [Zakim]
20:06:03 [DanCon]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
20:06:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see David_Orchard, Paul, Stuart, DanC, TimBL, Chris, Norm
20:06:19 [DanCon]
regrets: Ian
20:06:24 [DanCon]
??: RoyF, TimBray
20:06:56 [DanCon]
----- Convene, Stuart chairing, DanC as scribe
20:07:06 [Zakim]
20:07:10 [DanCon]
regrets: Ian, TimBray, PaulC (part)
20:07:25 [DanCon]
PC, RF endorse
20:07:31 [DanCon]
RESOLVED to accept them as a true record.
20:07:57 [DanCon]
-- 1.3 Accepted this agenda
20:08:11 [DanCon]
SW: mostly on versioning, yes?
20:08:44 [DanCon]
NW, DO: yes...
20:09:10 [DanCon]
DO: ... some stuff only just now sent out
20:09:39 [DanCon]
PC: not sure how to discuss stuff I can't see...
20:09:53 [DanCon]
SW: absent other ideas, let's try...
20:10:06 [DanCon]
-- Next meeting
20:10:13 [DanCon]
27 Oct 2003
20:10:21 [DanCon]
tentative regrets: PC, NW, TBL
20:10:52 [DanCon]
rather: next meeting 3 Nov 2003
20:11:20 [DanCon]
RESOLVED to meet 3 Nov, some regrets noted
20:11:34 [DanCon]
PC: we could discuss new webarch draft
20:11:58 [DanCon]
PC: not clear how stable that draft is, or when it might be replaced
20:12:20 [DanCon]
SW: not sure... [reads msg from Ian...]
20:13:07 [timbl]
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20:13:22 [DanCon]
--- TAG update at Nov 2003 AC meeting.
20:13:34 [DanCon]
Completd action DO, CL 2003/10/20: Produce draft slides for AC presentation
20:15:20 [DanCon]
DO reviews AC slide proposal...
20:16:10 [DanCon]
DO: it was very rewarding comparing the current webarch doc to the one 6 months ago; much more fleshed out.
20:16:32 [DanCon]
PC: presentation duration? main message?
20:17:02 [DanCon]
DO: I gather our slot is 60min; present for 40 to 55, allow 5 to 20min QA?
20:17:38 [Ian-BOS]
20:18:06 [Ian-BOS]
20:18:08 [Ian-BOS]
20:18:31 [DanCon]
^AC agenda, member-confidential
20:19:17 [DanCon]
PC: I don't see much about [... trouble capturing it...]
20:19:23 [DanCon]
ack danc
20:19:23 [Zakim]
DanCon, you wanted to ask why so much time on readily-available factual material
20:21:37 [DanCon]
PC: perhaps figure out some questions and work backward?
20:22:07 [DanCon]
DanC: a big question is: the TAG costs a lot; do you want to keep spending the resource that way?
20:22:26 [DanCon]
TimBL: what would you say to somebody in the corridoor?
20:23:40 [DanCon]
DanC: I found writing up the interaction with the Voice WG rewarding...
20:24:24 [DanCon]
DO: I hearw3452W5r'
20:26:22 [Stuart]
20:26:28 [Stuart]
ack DanCon
20:27:08 [DanCon]
[scribe needs help or something]
20:27:24 [DanCon]
DanC: I don't see any need to tell the AC what's in the document, I guess.
20:27:46 [Stuart]
ack Stuart
20:28:53 [DanCon]
SW: what's the coolest thing? I liked the interaction with voice... hmm...
20:29:01 [DanCon]
PC: we've delegated a bunch.
20:29:11 [DanCon]
... binary XML Workshop.
20:29:12 [timbl]
No affectr on i18n
20:29:22 [DanCon]
... bumping into I18N...
20:29:31 [timbl]
... 18n WG wouldn't take any notice
20:29:37 [DanCon]
... XML Core ID stuff.
20:29:54 [DanCon]
... plus VoiceXML
20:30:11 [DanCon]
TimBL: we stirred up RFC3023...
20:30:18 [DanCon]
Chris: IANA... media type...
20:30:30 [DanCon]
[several]: ... IETF in general
20:32:25 [DanCon]
DO: I think it's important to talk about the new text...
20:32:39 [DanCon]
... about how we've decided to get to Last Call ASAP, and what we've done about it
20:33:09 [DanCon]
DanC: hmm... the bulk of new text suggests to me that we're not headed for Last Call right away
20:33:54 [DanCon]
ACTION ChrisL: incorporate input on AC slides and produce another draft. ETA: Weds
20:34:49 [DanCon]
who will be there: SW, PC, NW, DC, CL, TBL. (not RF. Ian? Bray?)
20:35:16 [DanCon]
who will be there: SW, PC, NW, DC, CL, TBL, DO. (not RF. Ian? Bray?)
20:35:44 [DanCon]
=== TAG Nov face-to-face meeting agenda
20:35:50 [Ian-BOS]
I will be at AC meeting
20:35:52 [DanCon]
SW: pls send agenda input
20:36:05 [DanCon]
---- New issues list deployed
20:36:08 [DanCon]
SW: another time.
20:36:19 [DanCon]
=== Technical (75min)
20:36:27 [DanCon]
-- Review of 3023-related actions
20:36:48 [DanCon]
CL: I took the ball on a new draft, which prompted new input from Murata-san
20:37:12 [DanCon]
PC: summary?
20:37:32 [DanCon]
CL: deprecate text/xml due to charset foo; revises advice on when to use charset; ...
20:38:53 [DanCon]
20:39:01 [ChrisL]
RFC3023Charset-21: Do all "shoulds" of RFC 3023 section 7.1 apply?
20:40:01 [DanCon]
ACTION CL: draft XML mime type thingy with Murata-san
20:40:37 [DanCon]
20:40:44 [DanCon]
SW: let's skip 2.2 Review of Architecture Document writing assignments and come back
20:40:59 [DanCon]
-- 2.3 XML Versioning
20:41:36 [DanCon]
DO: Norm and I did some work on this last week and this; I sent a new draft just now...
20:42:38 [DanCon]
scribes thinks the relevant msg is "Proposed text for web arch section 4.5, extensibility and versioning"
20:43:12 [DanCon]
DO: intro/motivation text is new...
20:43:16 [DanCon]
... diagram updated...
20:44:06 [DanCon]
DO: I note the discussion of how to handle terminology sections; leaving that aside for a bit...
20:44:58 [DanCon]
[I'm confused; I see "1.x" but DO is saying "4.x"]
20:45:48 [timbl]
This note is proposed to be inserted
20:45:51 [timbl]
in th arch doc
20:46:00 [Stuart]
s/x.y/4.x+5.y (ish)
20:46:07 [timbl]
20:46:09 [timbl]
This is the text that we propose for section 4.5 of the webarch doc.
20:46:17 [DanCon]
DO: this text is shorter than the finding; xml-schema-specific stuff is left out
20:46:55 [ChrisL]
20:47:17 [DanCon]
CL: what to do with the schema-specific stuff?
20:47:18 [ChrisL]
ack chris
20:47:26 [DanCon]
NW: it's still in the finding, which we haven't updated...
20:47:37 [Stuart]
ack PaulC
20:48:43 [Stuart]
ack DanC
20:48:43 [Zakim]
DanCon, you wanted to ask to discuss the thesis
20:49:14 [Zakim]
20:49:19 [Zakim]
20:49:46 [DanCon]
DanC: I'd like to discuss the thesis; is this it? "The primary motivation to allow instances of a language to be extended is to decentralize the task of designing, maintaining, and implementing extensions."
20:49:58 [DanCon]
NW: that, plus you can't add extensibility later. gotta do it up front
20:50:31 [Roy]
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20:52:10 [Stuart]
20:54:03 [Norm]
ack stuart
20:54:05 [DanCon]
[scribe was discussing, missed a whole pile]
20:55:13 [DanCon]
SW: I see lots of good practice boxes; did you try to minimize those?
20:55:54 [DanCon]
NW: no; I promoted all the boxes from the finding; perhaps we'll lose a few
20:56:32 [Norm]
q+ to reply to Paul
20:56:42 [Norm]
ack norm
20:56:42 [Zakim]
Norm, you wanted to reply to Paul
20:56:46 [DanCon]
PC: this "nobody but the owner can change a namespace"... hm... Query added stuff to XML Schema namespace...
20:56:50 [DanCon]
DO: hmm!
20:56:56 [DanCon]
TBL: with knowledge/consent?
20:57:29 [DanCon]
NW: recall the Query WG decided users can't add functions to the fn namespace
20:57:48 [DanCon]
PC is excused at this point.
20:57:53 [Zakim]
20:59:57 [Stuart]
21:03:25 [Roy]
DC and DO: debate pro and con regarding definning terms on first use or separate terminology section
21:03:27 [DanCon]
[... on style of tems...]
21:05:56 [DanCon]
DO: we've spent a bunch of writing time on this; not sure how much more I'm interested to do.
21:06:42 [DanCon]
DC: I said when this versioning stuff came up "sounds like an interesting book"; I think we're maybe 1/3rd done writing this. I still have serious problems with the 1st sentence.
21:07:54 [DanCon]
SW earlier asked about whether to review it separately as part of the arch doc...
21:07:58 [DanCon]
[several]: put it in
21:10:13 [timbl]
q+ needs wordsmithing seriously
21:11:01 [Norm]
21:11:13 [DanCon]
DC: I shopped this versioning stuff around; it's quite popular. Folks seem to want it.
21:12:38 [DanCon]
TimBL: I think people want this set of terms nailed down; usage of "instance" in some places looks a bit informal in a way that might be misleading
21:13:32 [DanCon]
TimBL: also, how much of this is XML specific? [draws analogy between HTTP URIs and URIs ala XML formats and formats]
21:14:34 [Stuart]
ack Norm
21:15:36 [DanCon]
NW: I think tim is asking for more precision in this section than we've held ourselves to in other sections
21:15:36 [Norm]
ack norm
21:15:49 [DanCon]
timbl: there are a bunch of new terms here; they merit the same review as other stuff
21:18:10 [DanCon]
DO: how about: pls give us comments weds, NW and I do another draft by [missed it], then we hand to Ian
21:18:33 [DanCon]
Zakim, I am DanC
21:18:33 [Zakim]
ok, DanCon, I now associate you with DanC
21:19:07 [Stuart]
ack DanC
21:20:47 [Norm]
DC: extensibility and versioning are not cost free
21:21:19 [DanCon]
"The primary motivation to allow instances of a language to be extended is to decentralize the task of designing, maintaining, and implementing extensions."
21:21:41 [Stuart]
Hmm... here's a candidate for the thesis:
21:21:41 [Stuart]
The primary motivation to allow instances of a language to be
21:21:41 [Stuart]
extended is to decentralize the task of designing, maintaining,
21:21:41 [Stuart]
and implementing extensions. It allows senders to change the
21:21:41 [Stuart]
instances without going through a centralized authority.
21:21:52 [Stuart]
21:26:55 [DanCon]
21:26:57 [Zakim]
21:27:01 [Zakim]
21:27:02 [Zakim]
21:27:03 [Zakim]
21:27:05 [Zakim]
21:27:14 [Zakim]
21:27:26 [Zakim]
21:27:27 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has ended
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