IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-10-22
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:50:38 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 13:52:15 [ircleuser]
- ircleuser has joined #wai-wcag
- 13:52:22 [ircleuser]
- hi
- 13:52:25 [ircleuser]
- damn
- 13:53:17 [tom]
- how are you wendy?
- 13:54:24 [wendy]
- hello. ok. you?
- 13:54:53 [tom]
- not too bad. getting to grips with this apple mac.
- 13:55:41 [tom]
- i just went to quite an interesting presentation from a guy who has been looking at the business case for accessibility and did some basic surveying with bobby on the tourist industry
- 13:59:01 [tom]
- oh and i just sent you the source for what i did this morning on the gateway. I added in the text from a couple of the bugs to do with text equiv and made a few editorial changes
- 13:59:24 [wendy]
- thx. i haven't had a chance to look at it, but I'll get back to you later today.
- 13:59:42 [wendy]
- first, i've got to publish the latest html techniques draft.
- 13:59:51 [tom]
- righto
- 13:59:55 [tom]
- dialing in now
- 14:00:55 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:02:00 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:02:00 [Zakim]
- sorry, wendy, I don't know what conference this is
- 14:02:03 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see bcaldwell, tom, RRSAgent, Zakim, wendy
- 14:02:06 [wendy]
- zakim, list conferences
- 14:02:06 [Zakim]
- I see WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM, DI_DIWG()10:00AM, HTML_WG()10:00AM, SVG_WG()10:00AM active
- 14:02:08 [Zakim]
- also scheduled at this time is Team_W3M()8:00AM
- 14:02:10 [wendy]
- zakim, this is WAI_WCAG
- 14:02:10 [Zakim]
- ok, wendy
- 14:02:16 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:02:16 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P2, ??P4, ??P12, [MIT342]
- 14:02:35 [Zakim]
- +??P16
- 14:02:35 [wendy]
- zakim, [MIT342] is Wendy
- 14:02:36 [Zakim]
- +Wendy; got it
- 14:02:41 [tom]
- Zakim, ??P2 is probably Tom_Crocher
- 14:02:41 [Zakim]
- +Tom_Crocher?; got it
- 14:02:44 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P16 is Jenae
- 14:02:44 [Zakim]
- +Jenae; got it
- 14:02:52 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P4 may be David
- 14:02:52 [Zakim]
- +David?; got it
- 14:02:57 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P12 may be Ben
- 14:02:57 [Zakim]
- +Ben?; got it
- 14:02:59 [tom]
- Zakim, Tom_Croucher is Tom_Croucher
- 14:02:59 [Zakim]
- sorry, tom, I do not recognize a party named 'Tom_Croucher'
- 14:03:07 [tom]
- Zakim, Tom_Crocher is Tom_Croucher
- 14:03:07 [Zakim]
- +Tom_Croucher; got it
- 14:03:17 [tom]
- Zakim, I am Tom_Croucher
- 14:03:17 [Zakim]
- ok, tom, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
- 14:04:11 [Zakim]
- +??P24
- 14:04:17 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P24 is Chris
- 14:04:17 [Zakim]
- +Chris; got it
- 14:04:52 [Zakim]
- -David?
- 14:05:01 [tom]
- what happened?
- 14:05:15 [wendy]
- dunno - looks like you got dropped
- 14:05:27 [wendy]
- can you dial back in?
- 14:05:31 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:05:31 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Tom_Croucher, Ben?, Wendy, Jenae, Chris
- 14:05:31 [tom]
- i am
- 14:05:39 [tom]
- you might wanna swap david an i
- 14:05:41 [rellero]
- rellero has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:05:47 [Zakim]
- +??P4
- 14:05:50 [rellero]
- Hi
- 14:05:55 [rellero]
- Today I can follow only in irc
- 14:05:56 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P4 is Tom
- 14:05:56 [Zakim]
- +Tom; got it
- 14:06:02 [Zakim]
- +Matt
- 14:06:02 [wendy]
- zakim, Tom_Croucher is David
- 14:06:04 [Zakim]
- +David; got it
- 14:06:09 [tom]
- zakim, I am Tom
- 14:06:09 [Zakim]
- ok, tom, I now associate you with Tom
- 14:06:16 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:07:22 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php
- 14:07:46 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#518
- 14:08:22 [wendy]
- consensus from last week: let's try to find accessible sources. where we don't send the site a message that tells them they are nota ccessible.
- 14:09:27 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#519
- 14:15:03 [wendy]
- how would someone from html techniques find this reminder while working on html?
- 14:15:26 [wendy]
- one idea: when generate html techniques, include pieces from gateway as necessary.
- 14:18:39 [wendy]
- resolution: create checklist items for each technique is techniques gateway. link to these from (throughout) html techinques, i.e. mini-checklists embedded in html techniques that link to techniques gateway.
- 14:19:10 [chaalsBRS]
- chaalsBRS has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:19:49 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#524
- 14:20:48 [wendy]
- design that used css to cause flicker.
- 14:21:26 [wendy]
- is it offensive frequency?
- 14:24:10 [wendy]
- several questions. we expect to have techniques docs for svg, ecmascript, and macromedia to produce flash. so, can point to those for specific issues related to them and flicke.r
- 14:24:21 [wendy]
- however, gif, jpg, etc. would not have separate techniques documents.
- 14:24:33 [chaalsBRS]
- why not?
- 14:24:45 [wendy]
- charles - are you on the phone?
- 14:24:52 [chaalsBRS]
- nope.
- 14:24:59 [wendy]
- i won't carry on a separate conversation here. if you want to particiate in the discussion, please call in.
- 14:25:08 [chaalsBRS]
- no can do. regrets
- 14:25:13 [wendy]
- trace is working on a tool.
- 14:25:20 [wendy]
- gateway - umbrella
- 14:27:48 [wendy]
- we can have a technique in gateway that says it is tested, and list a variety of tools.
- 14:27:59 [wendy]
- say that these tihngs can cause flicker, thus the tehcnique is to evaluate.
- 14:28:54 [wendy]
- used to have a AAA item that addressed testing on slower equipment and hardware thatmight have processor-induced flicker. we threw out b/c so difficult to account for.
- 14:29:10 [wendy]
- can't tell when machine will hiccup and cause flicker but can test author's end (design).
- 14:30:06 [wendy]
- have a button to turn off flicker?
- 14:30:16 [wendy]
- an introduction to flicker, types of technologies that would cause it.
- 14:30:33 [wendy]
- if we have techniques, put in gateway.
- 14:30:47 [wendy]
- is there anything unique to gif/png that would cause specific technique of own?
- 14:30:55 [wendy]
- lump together with author intent.
- 14:31:09 [wendy]
- if we want to do a technique that is not covered by own doc, lump into gateway?
- 14:32:24 [wendy]
- gif - can specify how many seconds the frame appears. we can say don't set that at x which will cause flicker in dangerous range.
- 14:33:45 [wendy]
- we could create "bucket tecniques" to collect pieces for technologies that don't have their own complete techniques doc.
- 14:33:49 [wendy]
- otherwise, include in gateway.
- 14:34:33 [wendy]
- depend on audience. are they technical? if so, then include in gateway.
- 14:35:16 [wendy]
- or an appendix
- 14:35:51 [wendy]
- people like appendix idea.
- 14:36:37 [wendy]
- resolution: we'll put technology-specific information for techniques that don't have techniques docs of their own in an appendix in techniques gateway. but - will cross that bridge when come to it.
- 14:36:47 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#526
- 14:37:16 [wendy]
- waiting for rest of group
- 14:37:16 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#527
- 14:37:19 [wendy]
- already a likn
- 14:37:28 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#528
- 14:38:05 [wendy]
- phrased as what was already done, not what should be done.
- 14:39:24 [wendy]
- this is a checkpoint that has been pulled from the guidelines
- 14:42:04 [wendy]
- structured by success criteria. applying html techniques structure to gateway?
- 14:43:33 [wendy]
- atomic techniques w/in gateway?
- 14:45:17 [wendy]
- discussing views, structure of gateway
- 14:47:01 [wendy]
- links to technology specifics at beginning, then something that roughly follows guidelines (or link to a view that follows guidelines) for people who want to go through as they follow the guidelines.
- 14:48:33 [wendy]
- currently, text is jarring b/c in past tense rather than current activity.
- 14:49:12 [wendy]
- john is putting into active voice
- 14:49:23 [wendy]
- there is stuff between headings that need to be filled in
- 14:50:24 [wendy]
- does html techniques have this problem?
- 14:50:59 [wendy]
- not so much.
- 14:51:07 [wendy]
- it is more instructions/guidance.
- 14:51:59 [wendy]
- are current html techniques written in checklist items.
- 14:52:47 [wendy]
- some of them are true/false statements, some are not. i.e., we use "avoid" which we agreed to "avoid."
- 14:53:04 [wendy]
- checklist items should be true/false
- 14:53:12 [wendy]
- users might find that jarring
- 14:53:29 [wendy]
- that could be in heading, but for a checklist to be a checklist have to say if it is true or fals.e
- 14:53:43 [wendy]
- how about as questions?
- 14:53:50 [wendy]
- yes/no instead of true/false?
- 14:55:06 [wendy]
- include both
- 14:55:30 [wendy]
- depending on if we are generating checklist or techniques document
- 14:59:10 [wendy]
- if havne't looked at guidelines, will absolute statements make sense?
- 14:59:59 [wendy]
- assuming people have seen guidelines. need to make sure that techniques will make sense on their own (to some extent).
- 15:04:31 [wendy]
- action: tom to play with the strcuture of atomic techniques gateway techniques.
- 15:05:01 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#534
- 15:10:30 [wendy]
- question about image replacement
- 15:10:36 [wendy]
- using images for navigation
- 15:11:10 [wendy]
- some people have recommended using text navigation buttons so that text can be enlarged.
- 15:11:43 [wendy]
- designers need to use images - they want to use fonts and identity.
- 15:12:00 [wendy]
- can't say "don't use image-based links"
- 15:12:26 [wendy]
- image replacement one method to use css to replace images with text (swap images for text).
- 15:12:39 [bcaldwell]
- http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/
- 15:12:41 [wendy]
- however, there are some accessibility issues with some of the image replacement methods.
- 15:12:57 [wendy]
- although, tom and matt both claim to have accessible techniques.
- 15:17:44 [wendy]
- we should have something that says it is better to use text-based navigation rather than graphical.
- 15:23:21 [wendy]
- action: david write something that describes the benefits of using text-based navigation.
- 15:24:57 [wendy]
- resolution of open issue: replace "submit buttons" with "graphical buttons"
- 15:25:29 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#535
- 15:29:52 [wendy]
- clarification of issue
- 15:30:07 [wendy]
- there are a variety of issues, but the intent of this issue is how much information to provide?
- 15:30:25 [wendy]
- object element: do you put a terse label or description.
- 15:32:16 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 15:32:17 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 15:32:18 [Zakim]
- -Tom
- 15:32:19 [Zakim]
- -Chris
- 15:32:20 [Zakim]
- -Ben?
- 15:32:20 [Zakim]
- -Jenae
- 15:32:21 [Zakim]
- -David
- 15:32:22 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 15:36:58 [rellero]
- bye
- 15:41:42 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
- I see 2 open action items:
- 15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: tom to play with the strcuture of atomic techniques gateway techniques. [1]
- 15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-04-31
- 15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: david write something that describes the benefits of using text-based navigation. [2]
- 15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-23-21