IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-10-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:50:38 [RRSAgent]
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13:52:15 [ircleuser]
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13:52:22 [ircleuser]
hi
13:52:25 [ircleuser]
damn
13:53:17 [tom]
how are you wendy?
13:54:24 [wendy]
hello. ok. you?
13:54:53 [tom]
not too bad. getting to grips with this apple mac.
13:55:41 [tom]
i just went to quite an interesting presentation from a guy who has been looking at the business case for accessibility and did some basic surveying with bobby on the tourist industry
13:59:01 [tom]
oh and i just sent you the source for what i did this morning on the gateway. I added in the text from a couple of the bugs to do with text equiv and made a few editorial changes
13:59:24 [wendy]
thx. i haven't had a chance to look at it, but I'll get back to you later today.
13:59:42 [wendy]
first, i've got to publish the latest html techniques draft.
13:59:51 [tom]
righto
13:59:55 [tom]
dialing in now
14:00:55 [bcaldwell]
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14:02:00 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:02:00 [Zakim]
sorry, wendy, I don't know what conference this is
14:02:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bcaldwell, tom, RRSAgent, Zakim, wendy
14:02:06 [wendy]
zakim, list conferences
14:02:06 [Zakim]
I see WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM, DI_DIWG()10:00AM, HTML_WG()10:00AM, SVG_WG()10:00AM active
14:02:08 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time is Team_W3M()8:00AM
14:02:10 [wendy]
zakim, this is WAI_WCAG
14:02:10 [Zakim]
ok, wendy
14:02:16 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:02:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2, ??P4, ??P12, [MIT342]
14:02:35 [Zakim]
+??P16
14:02:35 [wendy]
zakim, [MIT342] is Wendy
14:02:36 [Zakim]
+Wendy; got it
14:02:41 [tom]
Zakim, ??P2 is probably Tom_Crocher
14:02:41 [Zakim]
+Tom_Crocher?; got it
14:02:44 [wendy]
zakim, ??P16 is Jenae
14:02:44 [Zakim]
+Jenae; got it
14:02:52 [wendy]
zakim, ??P4 may be David
14:02:52 [Zakim]
+David?; got it
14:02:57 [wendy]
zakim, ??P12 may be Ben
14:02:57 [Zakim]
+Ben?; got it
14:02:59 [tom]
Zakim, Tom_Croucher is Tom_Croucher
14:02:59 [Zakim]
sorry, tom, I do not recognize a party named 'Tom_Croucher'
14:03:07 [tom]
Zakim, Tom_Crocher is Tom_Croucher
14:03:07 [Zakim]
+Tom_Croucher; got it
14:03:17 [tom]
Zakim, I am Tom_Croucher
14:03:17 [Zakim]
ok, tom, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
14:04:11 [Zakim]
+??P24
14:04:17 [wendy]
zakim, ??P24 is Chris
14:04:17 [Zakim]
+Chris; got it
14:04:52 [Zakim]
-David?
14:05:01 [tom]
what happened?
14:05:15 [wendy]
dunno - looks like you got dropped
14:05:27 [wendy]
can you dial back in?
14:05:31 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:05:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom_Croucher, Ben?, Wendy, Jenae, Chris
14:05:31 [tom]
i am
14:05:39 [tom]
you might wanna swap david an i
14:05:41 [rellero]
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14:05:47 [Zakim]
+??P4
14:05:50 [rellero]
Hi
14:05:55 [rellero]
Today I can follow only in irc
14:05:56 [wendy]
zakim, ??P4 is Tom
14:05:56 [Zakim]
+Tom; got it
14:06:02 [Zakim]
+Matt
14:06:02 [wendy]
zakim, Tom_Croucher is David
14:06:04 [Zakim]
+David; got it
14:06:09 [tom]
zakim, I am Tom
14:06:09 [Zakim]
ok, tom, I now associate you with Tom
14:06:16 [ChrisR]
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14:07:22 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php
14:07:46 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#518
14:08:22 [wendy]
consensus from last week: let's try to find accessible sources. where we don't send the site a message that tells them they are nota ccessible.
14:09:27 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#519
14:15:03 [wendy]
how would someone from html techniques find this reminder while working on html?
14:15:26 [wendy]
one idea: when generate html techniques, include pieces from gateway as necessary.
14:18:39 [wendy]
resolution: create checklist items for each technique is techniques gateway. link to these from (throughout) html techinques, i.e. mini-checklists embedded in html techniques that link to techniques gateway.
14:19:10 [chaalsBRS]
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14:19:49 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#524
14:20:48 [wendy]
design that used css to cause flicker.
14:21:26 [wendy]
is it offensive frequency?
14:24:10 [wendy]
several questions. we expect to have techniques docs for svg, ecmascript, and macromedia to produce flash. so, can point to those for specific issues related to them and flicke.r
14:24:21 [wendy]
however, gif, jpg, etc. would not have separate techniques documents.
14:24:33 [chaalsBRS]
why not?
14:24:45 [wendy]
charles - are you on the phone?
14:24:52 [chaalsBRS]
nope.
14:24:59 [wendy]
i won't carry on a separate conversation here. if you want to particiate in the discussion, please call in.
14:25:08 [chaalsBRS]
no can do. regrets
14:25:13 [wendy]
trace is working on a tool.
14:25:20 [wendy]
gateway - umbrella
14:27:48 [wendy]
we can have a technique in gateway that says it is tested, and list a variety of tools.
14:27:59 [wendy]
say that these tihngs can cause flicker, thus the tehcnique is to evaluate.
14:28:54 [wendy]
used to have a AAA item that addressed testing on slower equipment and hardware thatmight have processor-induced flicker. we threw out b/c so difficult to account for.
14:29:10 [wendy]
can't tell when machine will hiccup and cause flicker but can test author's end (design).
14:30:06 [wendy]
have a button to turn off flicker?
14:30:16 [wendy]
an introduction to flicker, types of technologies that would cause it.
14:30:33 [wendy]
if we have techniques, put in gateway.
14:30:47 [wendy]
is there anything unique to gif/png that would cause specific technique of own?
14:30:55 [wendy]
lump together with author intent.
14:31:09 [wendy]
if we want to do a technique that is not covered by own doc, lump into gateway?
14:32:24 [wendy]
gif - can specify how many seconds the frame appears. we can say don't set that at x which will cause flicker in dangerous range.
14:33:45 [wendy]
we could create "bucket tecniques" to collect pieces for technologies that don't have their own complete techniques doc.
14:33:49 [wendy]
otherwise, include in gateway.
14:34:33 [wendy]
depend on audience. are they technical? if so, then include in gateway.
14:35:16 [wendy]
or an appendix
14:35:51 [wendy]
people like appendix idea.
14:36:37 [wendy]
resolution: we'll put technology-specific information for techniques that don't have techniques docs of their own in an appendix in techniques gateway. but - will cross that bridge when come to it.
14:36:47 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#526
14:37:16 [wendy]
waiting for rest of group
14:37:16 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#527
14:37:19 [wendy]
already a likn
14:37:28 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#528
14:38:05 [wendy]
phrased as what was already done, not what should be done.
14:39:24 [wendy]
this is a checkpoint that has been pulled from the guidelines
14:42:04 [wendy]
structured by success criteria. applying html techniques structure to gateway?
14:43:33 [wendy]
atomic techniques w/in gateway?
14:45:17 [wendy]
discussing views, structure of gateway
14:47:01 [wendy]
links to technology specifics at beginning, then something that roughly follows guidelines (or link to a view that follows guidelines) for people who want to go through as they follow the guidelines.
14:48:33 [wendy]
currently, text is jarring b/c in past tense rather than current activity.
14:49:12 [wendy]
john is putting into active voice
14:49:23 [wendy]
there is stuff between headings that need to be filled in
14:50:24 [wendy]
does html techniques have this problem?
14:50:59 [wendy]
not so much.
14:51:07 [wendy]
it is more instructions/guidance.
14:51:59 [wendy]
are current html techniques written in checklist items.
14:52:47 [wendy]
some of them are true/false statements, some are not. i.e., we use "avoid" which we agreed to "avoid."
14:53:04 [wendy]
checklist items should be true/false
14:53:12 [wendy]
users might find that jarring
14:53:29 [wendy]
that could be in heading, but for a checklist to be a checklist have to say if it is true or fals.e
14:53:43 [wendy]
how about as questions?
14:53:50 [wendy]
yes/no instead of true/false?
14:55:06 [wendy]
include both
14:55:30 [wendy]
depending on if we are generating checklist or techniques document
14:59:10 [wendy]
if havne't looked at guidelines, will absolute statements make sense?
14:59:59 [wendy]
assuming people have seen guidelines. need to make sure that techniques will make sense on their own (to some extent).
15:04:31 [wendy]
action: tom to play with the strcuture of atomic techniques gateway techniques.
15:05:01 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#534
15:10:30 [wendy]
question about image replacement
15:10:36 [wendy]
using images for navigation
15:11:10 [wendy]
some people have recommended using text navigation buttons so that text can be enlarged.
15:11:43 [wendy]
designers need to use images - they want to use fonts and identity.
15:12:00 [wendy]
can't say "don't use image-based links"
15:12:26 [wendy]
image replacement one method to use css to replace images with text (swap images for text).
15:12:39 [bcaldwell]
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/
15:12:41 [wendy]
however, there are some accessibility issues with some of the image replacement methods.
15:12:57 [wendy]
although, tom and matt both claim to have accessible techniques.
15:17:44 [wendy]
we should have something that says it is better to use text-based navigation rather than graphical.
15:23:21 [wendy]
action: david write something that describes the benefits of using text-based navigation.
15:24:57 [wendy]
resolution of open issue: replace "submit buttons" with "graphical buttons"
15:25:29 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/core_issues.php#535
15:29:52 [wendy]
clarification of issue
15:30:07 [wendy]
there are a variety of issues, but the intent of this issue is how much information to provide?
15:30:25 [wendy]
object element: do you put a terse label or description.
15:32:16 [Zakim]
-Wendy
15:32:17 [Zakim]
-Matt
15:32:18 [Zakim]
-Tom
15:32:19 [Zakim]
-Chris
15:32:20 [Zakim]
-Ben?
15:32:20 [Zakim]
-Jenae
15:32:21 [Zakim]
-David
15:32:22 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:36:58 [rellero]
bye
15:41:42 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items:
15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tom to play with the strcuture of atomic techniques gateway techniques. [1]
15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-04-31
15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: david write something that describes the benefits of using text-based navigation. [2]
15:41:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-23-21