15:01:54 RRSAgent has joined #simile 15:02:21 RRSAgent, pointer? 15:02:21 See http://www.w3.org/2003/10/09-simile-irc#T15-02-21 15:02:51 marbut has joined #simile 15:03:39 kevins2 has joined #simile 15:06:30 mickBass: we need to take a decision about whether to hold the plenary in November or December 15:06:51 mickBass: I can't attend in November, but not certain I will be able to attend in Dec 15:06:57 q+ to remind himself to discuss Leonardo,da Vinci,1452-1519 example as an algorithmic means that several communities use to create a unique id for people 15:07:24 mickBass: couple of reaons why to move it - we need to get the data, this will help us refine the demo script 15:07:38 then have some working suggestions on what is required to drive this to completion 15:07:54 with the november date, we might have the script in the required state, but its a bit risky 15:08:08 q+ to make the point that xml2003 is dec 7-12 http://www.xmlconference.org/xmlusa/ and as such at risk for dec f2f meeting 7-10 15:08:13 the second objective is to do some planning for the project post demonstrator 15:08:33 re: eric's queue: we should be processing the values to extract composite information 15:08:38 so we need to review key learnings, contributions from the team members going forward 15:08:50 +1 AndyS 15:09:26 jse has joined #simile 15:10:16 marbut: key point, think its important to include the hires in the plenary, important to use the plenary as a way to bring them into the team 15:10:31 marbut: may be logistics issues wrt start dates, but we should try to work around these 15:10:58 marbut: suggestion of position papers to capture current thinking, interested in feedback from the team and PIs 15:11:16 karger: in Vancouver dec 9-10 15:11:48 karger: I am at NIPS from Dec 8 to the 13th 15:12:09 mickBass: lets fork discussion into 2 threads - we need to find dates that are workable 15:12:19 and we need to have a structure that is reasonable 15:13:06 so we would like feedback on 1) using position papers to stimulate discussion and 2) the inclusion of the new hires in this process 15:13:31 kevins2: I think day one issues are more important that day 2 issues, we feel off schedule, so we need to concentrate on getting 15:13:38 the demonstrator complete 15:14:14 invite rssagent 15:14:38 AndyS: I have a concern that we are trying to cram too much into day 1 15:15:00 mickBass: so I am hearing we need to allocate more time to the topics currently on day 1 15:15:47 AndyS: there are different people present on day 1 and day 2, this means we can't reschedule 15:16:24 mark: do we need the whole team involved in the demo discussion? 15:16:49 kevins2: maybe we could make more progress with a smaller team. I think the people we need are David, MacKenzie and Mick 15:16:58 we want a script of the user interface for the demo 15:17:10 the rest of us would slow things down 15:18:06 kevins2: the mapping, modelling, inference rules stuff is something Andy, Kevin, Mark could work on 15:18:22 but without knowing what the output is (the script) that could be hard 15:18:33 AndyS: we need to know what the script is 15:19:27 mickBass: so by having the plenary in december, we could enter with some solid confidence in the demo script 15:19:55 kevins2: there is a problem with Mick is not there, would Mark be filling in? 15:21:03 ericm: I like the ideas of pushing this to december, having the new staff in place, and doing it in parallel, and also like the idea of 15:21:11 using haystack to create user interfaces 15:21:37 there is another aspect of this: how these demos are compelling to a number of audiences 15:22:07 mickBass: I suggest Mark & I take this feedback and rework the proposal 15:22:32 wrt to dates, David you are out the week of the 8th, so are there preferences for week of the 15th or week of the 1st. 15:23:08 ericm: my preference is for the 1st, the 15th is slipping towards the beginning of the holiday season 15:24:05 david: I don't have a preference, but I need to check my availability first. If you put some candidate dates on the table 15:24:33 AndyS: also the 1st is near thanksgiving, we need to know soon because getting on flights can be hard 15:25:13 mickBass: I propose the 3rd/4th of december, or the 16th/17th of december. Please RSVP availability for those dates 15:26:18 mickBass: corpus data - Eric? 15:27:10 ericm: Martin (Doerr) is looking over the license agreement, he's also putting together a bundle of metadata in CIDOC. 15:27:17 mickBass: what are the next steps? 15:27:48 ericm: they haven't taken a decision yet, so they make a decision, they accept our proposal or modify our proposal. If they accept we 15:27:56 get the data, if not we have to come back to them 15:28:41 Martin has been very good at turning things round quickly, he's interested in participating in a more active way, either in 15:29:29 an intellectual way, or as a user 15:29:50 mark: so it would be good to get Martin involved in the SIMILE? 15:29:58 ericm: yes. 15:30:39 mickBass: eric, you're running the link here, can you make an introduction for Mark at the appropriate time 15:31:20 http://www.w3.org/mid/5EDF4B64-F347-11D7-B049-000A9582FD3A@w3.org 15:31:47 ericm: another quick status update: I'm making headway with the Getty folks, but I don't have specific numbers 15:32:12 I'm trying to understand who may be able to help us, and answer some questions. They are in a transitional phase of 15:32:31 providing their data in different forms, but they are not in consultation with any consumers. So part of it 15:32:51 is getting the data, then manipulating, then making services available based on their data, so I'm trying to find 15:33:00 out what we can/can't do, and the costs 15:33:13 I'm hoping to be able to give you an answer here by next thursday. 15:33:50 mickBass: I don't have an update from MacKenzie, apart from her messages to the list, not sure where we are on IMS metadata from OCW 15:34:29 I think the artstor people are working on getting the records, but not the thumbnails 15:34:56 ericm: there are ways around this, but I don't want to derail the conversation 15:35:41 we might be able to negotiate with individual content owners, to get at least a collection of thumbnails and perhaps images 15:36:09 mickBass: please send the suggestions to MS and myself, then we'll schedule a call if necessary 15:36:35 kevins2: I have a question of OCW - it looked like MIT have done a new release in the last two weeks. MS said that there 15:36:49 is more metadata available internally, is that going to be available? 15:37:23 mickBass: there is more metadata in the microsoft content management system they are using for publishing, but they don't have a good export mechanism for that metadata 15:37:42 we are trying to get hold of some examples 15:38:32 mickBass: I wanted to update the group on progress on getting haystack connected to Joseki 15:38:53 and hand off of the history system code from Jason Kinnear to the DSpace / SIMILE team 15:39:22 Jason needs to update the code to use Jena 2 / the latest version of Joseki. 15:40:04 Jason can do that work, and support migrating his installation from mySQL to Postgres which might be easier to deal with in the SIMILE environment 15:40:21 we are still working logistics, it looks like it might take a couple of weeks to get it done. 15:40:47 we are also trying to get an RDF/XML snapshot of several thousand triples of history data, so that the haystack team can start to explore 15:40:57 how to create a UI for the history data 15:41:39 AndyS: we need to separate the issues: MS raised the issue about getting a publically available server up, and we need to schedule that work, and 15:41:51 the kind of system that David would need for testing. 15:42:38 David: I sat down with an incoming faculty member at MIT, we looked at Jena 2 / Joseki. It looks like Postgres / mySQL can be tweaked for our 15:43:06 purposes. It looks like we may be able to use Jena / mySQL as the one RDF repository for Haystack. 15:43:26 mickBass: we have about 15 minutes left. 15:43:32 marbut: vra data 15:43:55 ... design decisions required to make a style sheet and schema for artstore data 15:44:04 ... in xml, have nested elements 15:44:17 ... these model three different things 15:44:26 ... 1. embedded classes 15:44:36 ... 2. superproperty/subp relationships 15:44:38 ... 3. context 15:44:41 ... 15:44:54 ... so key decision: which elements in artstor are classes? 15:45:36 ... decision: image, mediafiles/mediafile, collection, relation, and creator 15:45:40 ... are classes 15:45:41 ... 15:45:50 ... on subproperties: 15:46:35 ? 15:46:51 ... der suggestion - add a "qualifier" to your schema 15:47:32 andys: if title.variant is a subproperty of title, then IF title.variant is "blah" THEN title is also "blah" 15:48:07 q+ 15:48:32 +1 of Andy's point 15:48:42 eric can you capture andy's point 15:50:00 AndyS: series is a first class object 15:50:00 andys: my position is that there is a conceptual first-level object which is the series, which itself has a title 15:50:24 kevins2: I would have thought of it the other way round 15:50:42 kevins2: series is a virtual object, not a real object? 15:50:53 em: no, it's very much real, bought & sold, has ip rights etc. 15:50:53 ericm: you can think of series having a title, as well as the article having a title 15:52:36 andys: if series is a first class concept, then if article has title.series, it is not true that title.series == title 15:52:51 andys: second point (sorry missed it... Andy?) 15:53:54 andys: some vra elements are subproperties, some links to other objects, some I could not discern either way 15:54:06 andys: vra really a syntactic way of writing down certain info 15:54:20 andys: need an application profile for additional semantics 15:54:57 marbut: may have several instances of vra schema where individuals have made different decisions about usage 15:58:21 haystack rdf 15:58:21 oops 15:59:44 em: agree andys that different communities will use VRA differently 16:00:00 em: probably we'll need a transformation for each store or collection of data 16:00:39 andys: hope to get in common a vra vocabulary? 16:00:57 andys: particular transformations will be messy, hacky 16:03:41 ericm: artstor data should be quite consistent 16:04:09 andys: key question: how consistent will the data be? We have sample size of 1 - hard to make observations/decisions about modelling without risk of them becoming unstuck 16:06:15 em: artstor is an intermediary, so data has been cleansed/crosschecked 16:06:43 em: but especially wrt names, we may need to do some parsing on names to tease out e.g. name, birthday, death date 16:07:02 andys: this would ease the task of merge w/ non-image sources e.g. OCW 16:07:17 marbut: back to the point of first class objects for various concepts 16:08:01 marbut: on artstor leave data untouched, but also hav an entity "artStorName" with reference to a vcard with firstname lastname bdate deathdate etc. 16:09:20 kevins: don't necessarily want to bulk out, say, da vinci record with all the metadata from any of the sources 16:14:11 andys: here's what we can do now: 16:14:25 1. work thru vra spec and create an abstract spec of what's happening 16:14:40 ... what's clear and what's confusing 16:14:59 ... crosscheck vs. observations from artstor data 16:17:14 marbut: given larger dataset we can run a translate to DC, this will show up some of the errors that Andy's pointed out 16:17:29 kevins: we can discuss how we want to represent these crosswalks technically 16:17:45 kevins: gets at core problem of how to represent records from foreign sources 16:18:26 mark: rdfs for IMS already exists 16:18:41 mark: but we may find its not correct 16:18:52 imsproject.org/rdf (em) 16:20:03 q+ 16:26:21 Mark - sample CIDOC records http://cidoc.ics.forth.gr/data_transformations.html 16:26:31 from my previous email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-dspace/2003Sep/0062.html 16:36:17 ericm has left #simile