IRC log of webont on 2003-10-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:46:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:46:27 [DanC]
Zakim, this will be WEBO
15:46:28 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; I see SW_WebOnt()12:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
15:46:47 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: 2 Oct http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/
15:47:42 [DanC]
agenda + 2 Oct http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Sep/0330.html
15:47:56 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: 2 Oct http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ chair: Guus; scribe: ??
15:53:15 [guus]
guus has joined #webont
15:53:43 [DanC]
hi guus
15:55:52 [guus]
hi, dan, you coming to FL?
15:57:13 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:57:19 [Zakim]
+Guus
15:59:11 [Zakim]
+[EDS]
16:01:05 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #webont
16:01:13 [DanC]
yes, coming to FL after all. http://www.w3.org/2003/10dc-rsw/
16:01:20 [Zakim]
+JimH
16:01:21 [DanC]
(linked from my homepage)
16:01:24 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
16:01:30 [Zakim]
+DanC
16:01:49 [Zakim]
+ChrisW
16:02:06 [Zakim]
+Ian_Horrocks
16:02:08 [seanb]
seanb has joined #webont
16:02:08 [Zakim]
-DanC
16:02:10 [Zakim]
+Jeff_Heflin
16:02:16 [Zakim]
+??P25
16:02:19 [IanH]
IanH has joined #webont
16:02:25 [Zakim]
+Evan_Wallace
16:02:32 [Zakim]
+DanC
16:02:33 [guus]
zakim, ??p25 is Jeremy
16:02:33 [Zakim]
+Jeremy; got it
16:03:10 [Zakim]
+??P31
16:03:42 [guus]
zakim, ??p31 is HermantH
16:03:42 [Zakim]
+HermantH; got it
16:03:57 [Zakim]
+??P32
16:04:25 [guus]
zakim, ??p32 is SeanB
16:04:25 [Zakim]
+SeanB; got it
16:04:28 [jjc]
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16:04:38 [jjc]
do we have a scribe?
16:05:30 [Zakim]
+Deb_Mcguinness
16:05:31 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: 2 Oct http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ chair: Guus; scribe: JeremyC
16:05:53 [guus]
zakim, whi is here?
16:05:53 [Zakim]
sorry, guus, I do not understand your question
16:05:56 [jjcscribe]
Scribe- jeremy
16:06:09 [jjcscribe]
Zakim, who's talking?
16:06:20 [Zakim]
jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (26%), JimH (27%), Jeremy (4%), SeanB (29%), Deb_Mcguinness (4%)
16:07:00 [Zakim]
+??P38
16:07:10 [DanC]
agenda?
16:07:20 [guus]
zakim, ??p38 is Yasser
16:07:20 [Zakim]
+Yasser; got it
16:07:56 [jjcscribe]
Minutes of last telecon - seconded connolly
16:08:00 [jjcscribe]
proposed guus
16:08:08 [jjcscribe]
minutes approved
16:08:21 [jjcscribe]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Sep/0330.html
16:08:23 [jjcscribe]
agenda
16:08:25 [jjcscribe]
prev
16:08:28 [jjcscribe]
minutes:
16:08:35 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:08:35 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
16:08:38 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:08:38 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HermantH
16:08:43 [jjcscribe]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Sep/0216.html
16:08:47 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:08:47 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ian_Horrocks
16:08:59 [Zakim]
+??P67
16:09:01 [jjcscribe]
Ian next week scribe
16:09:14 [jjcscribe]
Charles
16:09:16 [guus]
zakim, ??p67 is Charles
16:09:16 [Zakim]
sorry, guus, I do not recognize a party named '??p67'
16:09:32 [Zakim]
+Tayeb
16:10:14 [DanC]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:10:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Guus, [EDS], JimH, Mike_Dean, DanC, ChrisW, Ian_Horrocks, Jeff_Heflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, HermantH, SeanB, Deb_Mcguinness, Yasser, CharlesW, JeromeE
16:10:25 [jjcscribe]
Next telecon next week - then Oct 30
16:10:31 [jjcscribe]
agendum 2
16:10:37 [jjcscribe]
RDF Core isues
16:11:10 [jjcscribe]
RDF Semantics - Herman, and Ian were reviewing
16:11:25 [jjcscribe]
Ian: mailed a review just before telecon
16:11:38 [jjcscribe]
mainly Jeff dd the review
16:11:45 [jjcscribe]
concrn abouyt datatypes
16:12:05 [jjcscribe]
hence possible to have inconsistency
16:12:52 [jjcscribe]
DanC: this is not new - may 2002
16:13:10 [jjcscribe]
Ian: not clear when things are inconsistent or not
16:13:47 [jjcscribe]
Jim: model theory of datatypes changed between LC and now
16:14:23 [jjcscribe]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0032.html
16:14:27 [jjcscribe]
Ian's review above
16:15:16 [jjcscribe]
Herman: interpolation lemma problem PatH has responded
16:15:24 [jjcscribe]
review is unfinished
16:15:39 [jjcscribe]
the rules have changed
16:15:57 [jjcscribe]
RDFS entailment lemma issue with proof ....
16:17:50 [jjcscribe]
Jeremy: will RDF Semantics need to change more?
16:18:03 [jjcscribe]
Herman: I expect more details in maths will change
16:18:41 [jjcscribe]
Herman: so more will need to change ...
16:18:53 [jjcscribe]
Ian: no showstoppers, but urhter clairfication may be needed
16:19:41 [jjcscribe]
DanC: we cannot confirm that it is right ... but we haven't found anything critically wrong
16:19:54 [jjcscribe]
(or have we? are there any test cases?)
16:20:52 [jjcscribe]
ACTION DanC trn Ian's reviews into test cases
16:21:04 [jjcscribe]
Herman's action continued
16:21:35 [jjcscribe]
ACTION guus send mail to brian sumamrizing unfinished semantics review -
16:22:42 [jjcscribe]
Looking for reviewers fro LC2
16:23:57 [jjcscribe]
ACTION Guius review LC2 RDF schema when it comes
16:24:39 [jjcscribe]
ACTION Jim review LC2 RDF Concepts
16:24:46 [jjcscribe]
Everyone else encoruaged to also review
16:24:55 [jjcscribe]
Guus's proposal on I18N
16:25:30 [jjcscribe]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0021.html
16:26:31 [jjcscribe]
possible rephrasing of "The arguments against the alternatives proposed by
16:26:32 [jjcscribe]
I18N are compelling (see e.g. [2]).
16:26:50 [jjcscribe]
Seconded connolly with amendment
16:27:06 [jjcscribe]
(amendment to make tat sentence less confusing)
16:27:17 [jjcscribe]
(Scribe has sticky keyboard)
16:27:25 [jjcscribe]
Resolved by consensus
16:27:38 [jjcscribe]
Agendum 3
16:27:39 [DanC]
ACTION Guus revise and send
16:28:41 [DanC]
Proposal to approve tests http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0003.html
16:29:02 [DanC]
Proposal to approve extracredit tests http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0005.html
16:31:41 [DanC]
discussion of I5.26-003 levels:Full [PROPOSED] Structure sharing is not permitted in OWL DL, between two class descriptions.
16:35:17 [DanC]
... discussion of whether PELLET has actually come up with a proof of consistency w.r.t. OWL Full semantics ...
16:35:34 [DanC]
... general support for making this an extra credit case in any case...
16:35:55 [Zakim]
+JosD
16:36:05 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to approve extracredit tests as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0005.html
16:36:07 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
16:36:20 [JosD]
JosD has joined #webont
16:36:28 [DanC]
Proposal to approve tests http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0003.html
16:37:59 [DanC]
... note excluded tests
16:38:14 [DanC]
... note that it's cool to have the machine help so much with making this proposal
16:38:26 [DanC]
(which test?)
16:39:45 [DanC]
there's some test that's failed... empty universe...
16:40:45 [DanC]
Thing-001
16:41:20 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to approve tests per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0003.html ammended to take out Thing-001
16:41:26 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
16:41:51 [DanC]
ACTION jjc update test spec. ETA friday next week or after
16:42:22 [DanC]
ACTION IanH follow up on Thing-001 and S&AS
16:43:30 [DanC]
--- 3.2 consistency of examples from the OWL guide
16:44:00 [DanC]
IanH: we know we don't have effective decision procedures here...
16:44:12 [DanC]
... JimH's proposal to do some query-style entailment tests seems good
16:44:35 [DanC]
JimH: consistency of the ontology seems like extra credit, but please don't remove it
16:45:17 [DanC]
Jeremy: knock-on effects in guide or whatever?
16:45:35 [DanC]
Connolly: yes, I'd expect a note ala "we've used something that makes it infeasible to check consistency"
16:46:07 [DanC]
... discussion of whether use of oneOf in the guide is merited
16:47:10 [DanC]
JimH: I would oppose anything more than a note about oneOf in the guide [?]
16:48:17 [DanC]
IanH: indeed, oneOf is used once in the text of the Guide, but it's used much more in the ontology.
16:49:55 [jjcscribe]
DanC: our implementation experience shows an issue - let's not curtail discussion
16:50:13 [DanC]
DanC: I'm kinda surprised that you can't check the consistency of the guide ontologies.
16:51:00 [jjcscribe]
McG a new section in guide showing new pattern
16:51:01 [DanC]
DebM: hmm... a new section to show an alternative model that's perhaps less natural but more [what was the word?]
16:51:10 [jjcscribe]
effciient?
16:53:08 [jjcscribe]
q+
16:53:14 [DanC]
JimH: [missed some of it
16:53:16 [DanC]
]
16:53:57 [DanC]
JimH: I think we've been clear setting expectations around the ontologies in the guide. seems odd to put in the alternative in there.
16:54:18 [DanC]
[... jjc/IanH on some mechanical transformation ...]
16:54:58 [DanC]
JJC offers to investingate tests based on a mechanical transformation
16:55:29 [DanC]
MikeS: moving these to extra credit seems in order.
16:56:33 [DanC]
ACTION JJC: take tests based on guide and (a) propose to make the existing consistency tests extra credit, (b) derive similar tests by mechanical transformation
16:56:55 [DanC]
ACTION Jos: make addtional query-style tests.
16:57:07 [DanC]
... ala jimh's msg
16:57:29 [DanC]
** 4.0 New Document - OWL implementation Hints?
16:58:14 [DanC]
JimH/Guus: options: (a) nothing (b) WG note, (c) appendix to existing WG document
16:58:38 [DanC]
Sean: I'd be happy for it to become a WG note...
16:58:51 [DanC]
... it's pretty much done from my perspective
16:59:39 [DanC]
DanC: hmm... more work for team contact
16:59:47 [DanC]
JimH offers to recruit sandro to do it
16:59:58 [DanC]
Guus solicits reviewers
17:00:16 [DanC]
Sean: I think Peter has looked at it...
17:00:27 [DanC]
JimH offers to have it reviewed by MINDSWAP
17:00:38 [jjcscribe]
ACTION jimH ask mindswap
17:00:47 [jjcscribe]
ACTION guus ask peter for review
17:00:47 [DanC]
ACTION Guus: ask Peter to review
17:00:57 [DanC]
=== 3.3
17:01:02 [jjcscribe]
ACTION jjc: review sean's document
17:01:54 [DanC]
several proposals from peter http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0006.html
17:02:37 [DanC]
... observation that some parts are easier than others
17:03:04 [DanC]
A) URIs starting in "/" and "." http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0001.html
17:04:01 [seanb]
Sorry, have to leave now.....
17:04:06 [seanb]
Bye!
17:04:10 [Zakim]
-SeanB
17:05:08 [DanC]
as the tests are approved, and the confusion has subsided, no question is put.
17:05:54 [DanC]
-- C: Semantic Layering Bug
17:06:08 [DanC]
Ontology-002, Ontology-003
17:06:32 [DanC]
JJC: peter proposes a fix which looks OK to me
17:07:12 [DanC]
JosD: ... this "X is an Ontology" triple [...?...] test2[?]
17:07:35 [DanC]
[JJC explains to JosD; scribe doesn't follow]
17:08:53 [DanC]
[scribe is still not clear on what proposal JJC is endorsing...]
17:09:36 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to update previous decision on optionality of Ontology triple, etc. as per C/ Semantic layering bug in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Oct/0006.html
17:09:50 [DanC]
2nd
17:10:02 [DanC]
so RESOLVED. ACTION jjc, pfps[done?]
17:10:55 [DanC]
JJC: ?003 becomes a [?]. update changelog
17:11:28 [DanC]
JJC: E/ Loops in owl:equivalentClass has been resolved (little r) among the editors.
17:13:01 [DanC]
JJC: proposed to reject cardinality007
17:13:14 [DanC]
... er never mind... not accepted.
17:13:19 [DanC]
... note I'm going to obsolete it.
17:13:36 [DanC]
JJC: proposed to obsolete cardinality007
17:13:50 [DanC]
RESOLVED to obsolete cardinality007
17:13:56 [DanC]
ACTION jjc
17:14:17 [DanC]
discussion of "B" is postponed.
17:14:50 [jjcscribe]
sandro actions continued
17:15:04 [jjcscribe]
jjc actions done
17:15:15 [jjcscribe]
guus action is done
17:15:40 [jjcscribe]
danc is done
17:15:50 [DanC]
no, I'm not actually
17:16:07 [jjcscribe]
sorry I got that wrong
17:16:12 [jjcscribe]
danc's action continued
17:16:37 [jjcscribe]
jjc done
17:17:27 [jjcscribe]
ACTION jimh added disjoint on agenda
17:17:40 [jjcscribe]
jjc done
17:18:03 [jjcscribe]
guus action continued
17:18:20 [jjcscribe]
Item 5.0 Outreach
17:18:37 [jjcscribe]
guus action continued - in florida
17:18:44 [jjcscribe]
miked continued -in florida
17:19:26 [jjcscribe]
faq discussion connolly dean mcguiness horrcks hendler
17:19:32 [jjcscribe]
terhorst
17:19:38 [jjcscribe]
maybe a Bof during lunch
17:19:39 [ChrisW]
me too
17:19:58 [jjcscribe]
guus omg action
17:20:09 [jjcscribe]
there s no formal mechanism
17:22:11 [jjcscribe]
discussion of ibm and sandpipier proposals and links
17:22:25 [jjcscribe]
(under OMG action still)
17:22:41 [jjcscribe]
Mcg welty guus
17:24:51 [jjcscribe]
ACTION debMcG send review e-mail address to list for OMG reviews
17:29:44 [jjcscribe]
ACTION guus draft with ??? requirements msg on OMG proposals
17:29:51 [jjcscribe]
(that action still being discussed)
17:29:59 [jjcscribe]
natural mapping owl to UML or not
17:30:11 [jjcscribe]
Guus, DanC like natural mappings, rather than exhaustuve
17:30:23 [jjcscribe]
McG raises issue of subProperty hierarchy
17:30:37 [jjcscribe]
also semantics preservation issue
17:31:17 [jjcscribe]
wallace in discussion
17:32:23 [jjcscribe]
s/with ???// in ACTION above
17:32:42 [jjcscribe]
no replace above action
17:32:55 [jjcscribe]
ACTION guus draft parts of requirements msg on OMG proposals
17:33:40 [jjcscribe]
Dan raises issues about DAML meeting
17:33:57 [DanC]
input from WebOnt WG to DAML PI meeting
17:34:05 [jjcscribe]
ACTION chairs representating of WebOnt at DAML PI meeting
17:34:28 [jjcscribe]
JimHproposes extension 10 minutes
17:34:43 [jjcscribe]
DanC suggests adjournment and after hors discussion
17:34:48 [Zakim]
-HermantH
17:34:49 [Zakim]
-Evan_Wallace
17:34:57 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
17:35:00 [Zakim]
-CharlesW
17:35:01 [Zakim]
-JeromeE
17:35:10 [Zakim]
-Jeremy
17:35:53 [Zakim]
-JosD
17:43:33 [Zakim]
-[EDS]
17:45:27 [Zakim]
-DanC
17:45:33 [Zakim]
-JimH
17:45:36 [Zakim]
-Jeff_Heflin
17:45:37 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
17:45:37 [Zakim]
-Ian_Horrocks
17:45:42 [Zakim]
-Yasser
17:45:54 [Zakim]
-Guus
17:47:30 [Zakim]
-Deb_Mcguinness
17:47:31 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
19:15:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webont