IRC log of wstf on 2003-09-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:30:06 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wstf
21:30:16 [shawn]: agenda?
21:49:15 [jon]: jon has joined #wstf
21:49:27 [jon]: shawn
21:49:46 [shawn]: hi, jon. glad to see you've got IRC access~
21:49:57 [Andrew]: Andrew has joined #wstf
21:50:03 [shawn]: hi, andrew
21:50:15 [jon]: never used this before - glad it works
21:50:34 [Andrew]: hi all - feeling weary jon?
21:50:35 [shawn]: W3C has some cool tools, e.g.:
21:50:37 [shawn]: agenda?
21:50:55 [jon]: just about maintaining it
21:51:51 [Andrew]: imagine how i feel at 1am sat morning (regular EO meeting) ;-(
21:52:00 [jon]: right i'm off to get some coffee talk to you in a bit
21:52:09 [jon]: ah yes much worse!
21:56:08 [Andrew]: shawn - think i have a pointer for you re list numbering
21:56:14 [Andrew]: have alook at http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/tagpages/l/li.htm
21:57:32 [Andrew]: oh. i see everyone is sending in profiles (well 2 folk) - will do later on
21:57:57 [Zakim]: WAI_EOWG(WSTF)6:00PM has now started
21:58:04 [Zakim]: + +1.773.262.aaaa
21:58:32 [Zakim]: +??P1
21:59:25 [Zakim]: +Shawn
21:59:26 [Zakim]: -Shawn
22:00:15 [Zakim]: +Matt
22:00:37 [Zakim]: +Shawn
22:00:38 [Zakim]: -Shawn
22:00:52 [shawn]: doh!
22:01:20 [m3mSEA]: m3mSEA has joined #wstf
22:01:41 [Zakim]: +Shailesh_Panchang
22:02:14 [Zakim]: + +1.408.853.aabb
22:02:24 [Zakim]: +Shawn
22:03:02 [m3mSEA]: zakim, who's here?
22:03:02 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.773.262.aaaa, ??P1, Shawn, Matt, Shailesh_Panchang, +1.408.853.aabb
22:03:04 [Zakim]: On IRC I see m3mSEA, Andrew, jon, RRSAgent, Zakim, shawn
22:03:24 [m3mSEA]: zakim, aaaa is Carol
22:03:24 [Zakim]: +Carol; got it
22:03:37 [m3mSEA]: zakim, aabb is Michael_Lenz
22:03:37 [Zakim]: +Michael_Lenz; got it
22:03:45 [mlenz]: mlenz has joined #wstf
22:04:09 [m3mSEA]: zakim, ??P1 is Andrew
22:04:09 [Zakim]: +Andrew; got it
22:05:09 [shawn]: agenda?
22:05:17 [Zakim]: + +44.123.520.aacc
22:05:29 [shawn]: zakim aacc is jon
22:05:45 [shawn]: zakim, aacc is jon
22:05:45 [Zakim]: +jon; got it
22:05:48 [Zakim]: -Shailesh_Panchang
22:06:08 [Zakim]: +Shailesh_Panchang
22:07:07 [Zakim]: +??P6
22:07:25 [mlenz]: not me
22:07:27 [mlenz]: sorry
22:07:33 [shawn]: zakim, ??P6 is charmane
22:07:33 [Zakim]: +charmane; got it
22:07:51 [shawn]: slh: shawn says thanks to andrew
22:08:13 [Andrew]: aa: offeres to note take
22:08:29 [m3mSEA]: zakim, mute me temporarily
22:08:29 [Zakim]: sorry, m3mSEA, I do not see a party named 'm3mSEA'
22:08:36 [m3mSEA]: zakim, Matt is really me
22:08:36 [Zakim]: +m3mSEA; got it
22:08:40 [m3mSEA]: zakim, mute me temporarily
22:08:40 [Zakim]: m3mSEA should now be muted
22:08:55 [Zakim]: m3mSEA should now be unmuted again
22:09:01 [jon]: zakim,mute me
22:09:13 [jon]: zakim, mute me
22:09:13 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
22:09:15 [Andrew]: slh: agenda #1 logistics & t/f functioning
22:09:23 [shawn]: zakim, take up agendum 1
22:09:23 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Logistics and general discussion of functioning of Task Force (brief)" taken up [from shawn]
22:10:03 [Andrew]: slh: introductions - verbal, and please post to list
22:14:21 [shawn]: ack jon
22:15:10 [shawn]: zakim, mute jon
22:15:10 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
22:15:14 [shawn]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2003/wstf.html
22:16:15 [Andrew]: slh: questions?
22:16:43 [Andrew]: slh: meeting frequency - weekly?
22:17:42 [shawn]: aa: objectives to redesign... adding WAI documents, need architecture that can handle...
22:18:52 [Andrew]: aa: IA that can scale and evolve - not a static site
22:19:33 [Andrew]: sp: do we need to start with documenting the existing weaknesses?
22:20:42 [Andrew]: slh: we need a "parking lot" for ideas that are not part of the 'current' agenda, eg AA & SP just voiced
22:21:00 [jon]: unless i have anything burning to say i'll keep quiet to avoid buzz
22:21:41 [Andrew]: slh: logistics questions & t/f funcioning & communication
22:23:27 [Andrew]: slh: meeting timing suited early participants - may need to rotate occaisionly to bring others in
22:25:15 [shawn]: action, slh: check with Justin about meetin time
22:25:42 [shawn]: zakim, close agendum 1
22:25:42 [Zakim]: agendum 1 closed
22:25:43 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:25:44 [Zakim]: 2. Schedule and milestones for WAI site redesign (brief) [from shawn]
22:27:01 [Andrew]: slh: soft milestones - march 04 (csun & W3C tech plenary) - opportunities for broader discussion of draft prototypes and informal feedback
22:28:16 [Andrew]: ml: who is coding
22:28:42 [Andrew]: slh: group may code prototype (site re-coding tbd)
22:29:32 [mlenz]: eye
22:29:49 [Andrew]: March 04 - agreed for lo-fidelety prototype
22:30:23 [Andrew]: slh: usability testing offer on existing WAI site
22:31:01 [Andrew]: slh: we already know many issues (sp: already said we should document)
22:31:41 [Andrew]: slh: further usabilty testing on early prototypes to help refine
22:32:55 [Andrew]: slh: existing testing scheduled for late Oct - 28/29 - offer to observe if in area; will be taped, but no highlight tap or broadcast
22:34:27 [Andrew]: slh: also should provide 'some' benchmarking (though not statistically) to show improvements with redesign
22:35:09 [Andrew]: slh: t/g needs to id definition of users and tasks for testing - quickly!
22:35:37 [Andrew]: slh: 2 weeks neeed for recruitment; 1 week for protocol
22:36:04 [shawn]: zakim, close agendum 2
22:36:04 [Zakim]: agendum 2 closed
22:36:05 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:36:06 [Zakim]: 3. Vision for WAI Web site [from shawn]
22:37:44 [shawn]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/UCD/vision
22:38:37 [jon]: zakim, mute me
22:38:37 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
22:40:22 [Andrew]: slh: see also March EO meeting http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2003/0304.html#vision
22:40:42 [shawn]: cc: resource
22:41:13 [Andrew]: cc: site should be a resource
22:41:20 [shawn]: ml: source=point of oringination
22:42:44 [Andrew]: aa: parking lot - pointer to other resources
22:42:49 [shawn]: parking list: pointer to other resources?
22:44:21 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
22:44:21 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
22:44:37 [Andrew]: parking list: definitive source vs welcoming to new-comers may mean parallel IA?
22:44:48 [Andrew]: cs: likes welcoming
22:45:23 [jon]: zakim, mute me
22:45:23 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
22:45:24 [Andrew]: jd: need to keep folk engaged; needs to be 'state of the art' wrt good design practice
22:46:13 [Andrew]: ml: must include best practice - graphics, layout, presentation (& accessibility)
22:46:35 [shawn]: a ml/mm
22:47:31 [shawn]: aa: re/source for people working in the field
22:47:37 [shawn]: aa: intro for newbies
22:48:25 [Andrew]: mm: 1. what a developer needs 2. what can a pwd use/do
22:49:11 [Andrew]: sp: 1. findability & navigability is crucial
22:49:49 [Andrew]: cc: 1. role model incl how to communicate abut accessibility (not confusing)
22:50:24 [Andrew]: cs: 1. welcoming 2. callouts - pointers for different audiences
22:50:55 [Andrew]: ml: 1. proactive - speaking to user groups with better structure
22:50:57 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
22:50:57 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
22:51:47 [jon]: zakim, mute me
22:51:47 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
22:51:51 [Andrew]: jd: 1. all above - role model 2. definitive source/resource is crucial
22:52:40 [Andrew]: slh: current site doesn't meet vision = opportunity
22:53:17 [Andrew]: slh: voluteer to craft a 'vision statement'? cc volunteered
22:54:03 [Andrew]: action: all to send to cc/slh examples of good existing vision statements that folk like
22:55:32 [shawn]: corcora1@msu.edu
22:55:34 [Andrew]: cc: corcora1@msu.edu
22:55:59 [shawn]: zaki, who is talking?
22:57:02 [Andrew]: aa: should try and locate website/software-application visions (rather than organisational visions)
22:57:19 [jon]: zakim, mute me
22:57:19 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
22:57:21 [shawn]: zakim, close agendum 2
22:57:21 [Zakim]: agendum 2 closed
22:57:22 [Zakim]: I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:57:23 [Zakim]: 3. Vision for WAI Web site [from shawn]
22:57:30 [Andrew]: aa: in a shared office - will keep on mute
22:57:34 [shawn]: zakim, close agendum 3
22:57:34 [Zakim]: agendum 3 closed
22:57:35 [Zakim]: I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:57:36 [Zakim]: 4. User Analysis [from shawn]
22:58:30 [Andrew]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/UCD/users
23:00:06 [mlenz]: I would like to see project managers added
23:00:30 [shawn]: aa: add accessibility consultant
23:01:52 [Andrew]: ... and communications managers (following jd's idea)
23:03:53 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
23:03:53 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
23:03:55 [Andrew]: XX: managers/administrators/executives is needed as a new group - non technical managers
23:04:31 [jon]: zakim, mute me
23:04:31 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
23:05:02 [Andrew]: jd: decision makers - non ICT; budget responsibility
23:05:59 [Andrew]: another eg is marketing
23:06:41 [Andrew]: ml: product managers is a another example
23:06:44 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
23:06:44 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
23:07:10 [Andrew]: slh: maybe group is 'decision makers'?
23:07:41 [Andrew]: cc: other managers may be promoters but not decision makers
23:07:57 [jon]: zakim, mute me
23:07:57 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
23:08:46 [Andrew]: slh: list has 25 user groups - can test with max 8 - so priorities?
23:09:46 [Andrew]: ml: developers and designers MUST be aware and can feed accessibility into upstream
23:10:07 [Andrew]: ml: business owner can feed it downsteam
23:10:14 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
23:10:14 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
23:10:58 [jon]: zakim, mute me
23:10:58 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
23:11:11 [Andrew]: jd: developer is important as responsible for implementation (and need good resource)
23:12:03 [Zakim]: +Doyle_Burnett
23:13:03 [shawn]: Zakim, doyle_burnett is Justin
23:13:03 [Zakim]: +Justin; got it
23:14:52 [Andrew]: ml/aa: project owner MUST be key target as they are going to signh off and need to understand accessibility in order to do so
23:15:29 [mlenz]: site needs to be a voice for the disabled
23:16:25 [mlenz]: site needs to articulate the business case for accessibility
23:16:54 [shawn]: slh: add authoring tool folks & user agent folks
23:17:11 [mlenz]: site needs to be the credible resource for the people building the web based products
23:18:33 [Andrew]: will shawn refine priorities and send to list?
23:20:11 [Andrew]: cc: shoud retain pwd as a primary focus - will be very different if not inlcude upfront
23:20:50 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
23:20:50 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
23:23:00 [AMJA]: AMJA has joined #wstf
23:23:25 [shawn]: issue: currently we don't have many (any) resources specifically for PWDs who are not members of other groups...
23:23:41 [AMJA]: sorry - irc booted me off temporarily - lost the discusion thread for a few minutes
23:24:15 [AMJA]: can take up notes again - thanks for that capture shwan
23:25:18 [AMJA]: jd: E & O - people who can make a difference and get accessibility on the agenda must be priority
23:25:29 [jon]: zakim, mute me
23:25:29 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
23:26:16 [AMJA]: sp: softawre QA folk should also be included somewhere
23:26:39 [AMJA]: sp: software = website
23:26:47 [shawn]: add to user list: web site evaluators, QA
23:27:34 [AMJA]: sp: should be inlcuded in primary
23:27:51 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
23:27:51 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
23:27:58 [jon]: zakim, mute me
23:27:58 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
23:28:03 [AMJA]: ml: pwd should be secondary wrt site objective
23:28:12 [AMJA]: most folk agree
23:29:01 [AMJA]: slh: pwd who are not members of other target groups - where do they fit?
23:29:37 [AMJA]: all agree these are secondary target
23:30:31 [AMJA]: mm: also - no materials targeting this group
23:30:36 [m3mSEA]: mm: I stand aside, since we don't have any of the resources I'm talking about yet.
23:32:41 [AMJA]: background = probably andrew - muted now
23:33:49 [AMJA]: aa: I would like to see marketing/communcations managers
23:39:21 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
23:39:21 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
23:39:25 [jon]: zakim, mute me
23:39:25 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
23:39:32 [AMJA]: aa: corporate policy makers different from govt policy makers
23:40:15 [AMJA]: action: folk to group users into primary/secondary/other when list refined by slh
23:41:07 [shawn]: zakim, close agendum 4
23:41:07 [Zakim]: agendum 4 closed
23:41:08 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
23:41:09 [Zakim]: 5. Usability testing protocol [from shawn]
23:41:15 [shawn]: zakim, sho is making noise?
23:41:15 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, shawn.
23:41:16 [AMJA]: slh: matrix - to help us understand the users; also need to develop personas for target users
23:41:50 [AMJA]: aa was typing loudly
23:44:02 [AMJA]: slh: who are the 8 participants? what screening?
23:44:34 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
23:44:34 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
23:44:44 [AMJA]: slh: criteria for 8 participoants?
23:45:41 [AMJA]: jd: don't be too specific; dno't need to be accessibility experts; do need some technical experience (so won't be scared by language they will find)
23:45:48 [AMJA]: ml: agrees
23:46:09 [AMJA]: cc: what we ask is more important that who we test
23:48:00 [AMJA]: sp/jd: should include a pwd in user group - maybe a screen reader user
23:48:40 [shawn]: ppts - some technical so not bamboozled
23:48:57 [shawn]: ppts - at least one experienced screen reader user
23:49:23 [shawn]: ppts - at least one high savy Internet (but not necessarily with accessibility)
23:49:34 [AMJA]: cs/jd: some savvy with net (not necesarily accessibility)
23:50:43 [shawn]: ppts - one high level management, decision making
23:51:42 [AMJA]: ppts - one hard-core developer looking for technical support
23:52:40 [AMJA]: nb - one = 'at least one'
23:53:06 [jon]: zakim, mute me
23:53:06 [Zakim]: jon should now be muted
23:53:37 [shawn]: zakim, close agendum 5
23:53:37 [Zakim]: agendum 5 closed
23:53:38 [Zakim]: I see nothing remaining on the agenda
23:55:37 [shawn]: actions?
23:55:37 [RRSAgent]: sees 2 open action items:
23:55:37 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: all to send to cc/slh examples of good existing vision statements that folk like [1]
23:55:37 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/09/29-wstf-irc#T22-54-03
23:55:37 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: folk to group users into primary/secondary/other when list refined by slh [2]
23:55:37 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/09/29-wstf-irc#T23-40-15
23:56:17 [jon]: zakim, unmute me
23:56:17 [Zakim]: jon should no longer be muted
23:56:47 [AMJA]: action: lsh to compile criteria for user group for testing and send to list for t/f comment online and next week
23:57:45 [AMJA]: slh: may need to junp into tasks for testing fairly urgently because of timelines
23:59:38 [Zakim]: -Shailesh_Panchang