IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-08-28
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:01:54 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:01:56 [wendy]
- hello
- 20:01:59 [rellero]
- Hi
- 20:02:12 [m3mSEA]
- zakim, ??P3 is probably me
- 20:02:12 [Zakim]
- +m3mSEA?; got it
- 20:02:12 [rscano]
- zakim, ??P3 is Matt_May
- 20:02:12 [Zakim]
- sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named '??P3'
- 20:02:23 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 20:02:26 [Zakim]
- +JasonWhite
- 20:02:27 [rellero]
- The line on the telephone is disturbed this evening
- 20:02:31 [Zakim]
- +??P7
- 20:02:36 [rscano]
- zakim, who is here?
- 20:02:36 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, m3mSEA?, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite (muted), ??P7
- 20:02:36 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:02:39 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see RRSAgent, m3mSEA, wendy, bcaldwell, rellero, Yvette, Zakim, silvia, bengt, rscano
- 20:02:41 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, m3mSEA?, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite (muted), ??P7
- 20:02:44 [rscano]
- zakim, m3mSEA? is Matt_May
- 20:02:44 [Zakim]
- +Matt_May; got it
- 20:02:56 [Yvette]
- zakim, m3mSEA is probably Matt_May
- 20:02:56 [Zakim]
- sorry, Yvette, I do not understand your question
- 20:02:59 [rscano]
- zakim, ??P7 si Ben_and_Gregg
- 20:02:59 [Zakim]
- I don't understand '??P7 si Ben_and_Gregg', rscano
- 20:03:11 [rscano]
- zakim, ??P7 is Ben_and_Gregg
- 20:03:11 [Zakim]
- +Ben_and_Gregg; got it
- 20:03:17 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:03:17 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Matt_May, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite, Ben_and_Gregg
- 20:03:59 [Zakim]
- +??P8
- 20:04:20 [wendy]
- agenda+ consent decree items http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=333%2C335%2C336%2C337
- 20:04:21 [wendy]
- %2C339%2C340%2C345%2C347%2C348%2C349%2C350%2C351
- 20:04:22 [Zakim]
- +John_Slatin
- 20:04:25 [wendy]
- zoinks
- 20:04:26 [rscano]
- zakim, ??P8 is Andi
- 20:04:26 [Zakim]
- +Andi; got it
- 20:04:30 [Yvette]
- My connection's gone
- 20:04:31 [wendy]
- drop agendum 1
- 20:04:47 [rscano]
- is it Klingon language? :)
- 20:04:50 [wendy]
- agenda+ consent decree items http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=333%2C335%2C336%2C337%2C339%2C340%2C345%2C347%2C348%2C349%2C350%2C351
- 20:05:00 [Zakim]
- + +1.703.371.aaaa
- 20:05:14 [Zakim]
- +??P11
- 20:05:17 [wendy]
- agenda+ proposals w/out discussion http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=319%2C338%2C341%2C342%2C343
- 20:05:18 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 20:05:25 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P11 is Yvette
- 20:05:25 [Zakim]
- +Yvette; got it
- 20:05:30 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P12 is Bengt
- 20:05:30 [Zakim]
- +Bengt; got it
- 20:05:31 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:05:31 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink was already muted, Yvette
- 20:05:40 [bengt]
- zakim, ??P12 is Bengt_FArre
- 20:05:40 [Zakim]
- sorry, bengt, I do not recognize a party named '??P12'
- 20:05:44 [GVAN]
- GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:05:58 [wendy]
- agenda+ pending issues http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=320%2C323%2C330%2C331%2C344%2C346
- 20:06:02 [wendy]
- zakim, who's talking?
- 20:06:05 [Yvette]
- zakim, ??P12 is bengt
- 20:06:05 [Zakim]
- sorry, Yvette, I do not recognize a party named '??P12'
- 20:06:17 [Yvette]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:06:17 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Matt_May, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite, Ben_and_Gregg,
- 20:06:17 [bengt]
- zakim, Bengt is Bengt_Farre
- 20:06:20 [Zakim]
- ... Andi, John_Slatin, +1.703.371.aaaa, Yvette, Bengt
- 20:06:21 [Zakim]
- +Bengt_Farre; got it
- 20:06:22 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (28%), Wendy (14%), JasonWhite (24%)
- 20:06:43 [wendy]
- zakim, who's talking?
- 20:06:47 [bengt]
- zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
- 20:06:47 [Zakim]
- ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
- 20:06:55 [bengt]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:06:55 [Zakim]
- Bengt_Farre should now be muted
- 20:06:58 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (18%), Wendy (47%), JasonWhite (10%)
- 20:07:06 [wendy]
- agenda?
- 20:07:19 [bengt]
- Im muted in this end ? but noise from internet ?
- 20:07:34 [GVAN]
- you are quite now
- 20:08:25 [wendy]
- zakim, open agendum 1
- 20:08:25 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "consent decree items http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=333%2C335%2C336%2C337%2C339%2C340%2C345%2C347%2C348%2C349%2C350%2C351" taken up [from wendy]
- 20:08:39 [bengt]
- who is 1.703 ?
- 20:08:44 [rscano]
- zakim, + +1.703.371.aaaa could be Cynthia
- 20:08:44 [Zakim]
- I don't understand '+ +1.703.371.aaaa could be Cynthia', rscano
- 20:09:06 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=350
- 20:09:22 [wendy]
- generalize?
- 20:09:32 [wendy]
- remove 350 from this list. part of other discussion.
- 20:09:57 [Zakim]
- -Yvette_Hoitink
- 20:10:54 [wendy]
- * <abbr title="overcome by events">OBE</abbr>
- 20:11:02 [wendy]
- close agendum 1
- 20:11:11 [wendy]
- zakim, take up agendum 2
- 20:11:11 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "proposals w/out discussion http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=319%2C338%2C341%2C342%2C343" taken up [from wendy]
- 20:11:32 [wendy]
- 319: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=319
- 20:12:18 [wendy]
- bugzilla: issues w/screen readers and safari
- 20:13:01 [wendy]
- action: ben and john work on bugzilla template
- 20:13:35 [wendy]
- zakim, who's talking?
- 20:13:39 [bengt]
- zakim, who is talking ?
- 20:13:46 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (74%), John_Slatin (9%), +1.703.371.aaaa (63%)
- 20:13:57 [Zakim]
- bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (13%), +1.703.371.aaaa (36%), Wendy (51%)
- 20:14:18 [rscano]
- zakim, +1.703.371.aaaa is Katie_Haritos_Shea
- 20:14:18 [Zakim]
- +Katie_Haritos_Shea; got it
- 20:14:24 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:14:24 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Matt_May, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite, Ben_and_Gregg, Andi, John_Slatin,
- 20:14:27 [Zakim]
- ... Katie_Haritos_Shea, Yvette, Bengt_Farre (muted)
- 20:14:37 [wendy]
- zakim, mute Katie
- 20:14:37 [Zakim]
- Katie_Haritos_Shea should now be muted
- 20:14:49 [bengt]
- zakim, who is talking ?
- 20:15:04 [Zakim]
- bengt, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (96%)
- 20:15:51 [wendy]
- avoid "tab order." how about "navigation order"
- 20:17:30 [wendy]
- reading order and tab order are often different.
- 20:18:12 [rscano]
- what about "tabindex order"?
- 20:18:31 [wendy]
- q+
- 20:18:41 [wendy]
- ack Katie
- 20:18:58 [wendy]
- broadening tab order, probably not a bad idea.
- 20:19:06 [GVAN]
- Q+
- 20:19:16 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:20:29 [wendy]
- instead of logical how about "follows visual or reading order"
- 20:20:33 [wendy]
- or "structural order"
- 20:20:37 [wendy]
- ack GVAN
- 20:20:42 [bengt]
- prefer that the navigation order follows natural reading order
- 20:20:50 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "Specifiying tab order is especially useful if different from reading order
- 20:21:31 [bcaldwell]
- q+
- 20:22:00 [wendy]
- q+ to say "not random"
- 20:22:19 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 20:22:19 [Zakim]
- Yvette, you wanted to say "Specifiying tab order is especially useful if different from reading order
- 20:22:59 [wendy]
- ack john
- 20:23:34 [wendy]
- "meaningful" and "logical" are not testable
- 20:23:47 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:23:47 [Zakim]
- Yvette should now be muted
- 20:23:59 [wendy]
- ack bcaldwell
- 20:24:06 [GVAN]
- Q+
- 20:24:42 [wendy]
- only important when talking about forms? if talking about meaningful navigation order, don't know which will be jumped to. depends on UA.
- 20:24:47 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:24:47 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "not random"
- 20:25:16 [bengt]
- hihi
- 20:25:22 [wendy]
- provide an order that is not random :)
- 20:25:31 [wendy]
- ack Katie
- 20:25:36 [wendy]
- why not structure?
- 20:26:51 [wendy]
- "a non-random order typically follows structure, visual layout, or reading order"
- 20:26:56 [wendy]
- ack GVAN
- 20:27:21 [wendy]
- "where tab order can be specified..." instead of "where possible..." ?
- 20:27:53 [wendy]
- where possible to specify tab order? where possible to determine logical?
- 20:30:40 [wendy]
- action: wendy proposal to reword text wrt http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=319
- 20:31:16 [rscano]
- q?
- 20:31:26 [wendy]
- determinant order?
- 20:31:58 [wendy]
- problem isn't that people are creating random tab orders.
- 20:32:05 [rscano]
- use at least the default tab order
- 20:32:09 [wendy]
- default tab order could be fine.
- 20:32:21 [rscano]
- yep
- 20:32:22 [wendy]
- wherever possible, tab order is specified unless default works
- 20:32:25 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "only specify taborders if the default order isn't appropriate"
- 20:32:43 [wendy]
- ack Yvette
- 20:32:44 [Zakim]
- Yvette, you wanted to say "only specify taborders if the default order isn't appropriate"
- 20:33:43 [Zakim]
- +Doyle_Burnett
- 20:35:12 [rscano]
- zakim, who is speaking?
- 20:35:24 [Zakim]
- rscano, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Loretta_Guarino_Reid (22%), Ben_and_Gregg (100%), Katie_Haritos_Shea (46%)
- 20:35:31 [wendy]
- q?
- 20:35:46 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=338
- 20:36:33 [wendy]
- http://www.hyperdictionary.com/computing/functionality
- 20:36:36 [wendy]
- q+
- 20:37:04 [bengt]
- zakim, who is talking ?
- 20:37:08 [rscano]
- "Functionality is the function or purpose of the content"... Functionality - Function is too ripetitive i think...
- 20:37:16 [Zakim]
- bengt, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (48%), John_Slatin (13%), Katie_Haritos_Shea (14%), Wendy (40%)
- 20:37:43 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:38:21 [wendy]
- michael's proposal (see list)
- 20:38:44 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0437.html
- 20:38:51 [wendy]
- zakim, mute katie
- 20:38:51 [Zakim]
- Katie_Haritos_Shea should now be muted
- 20:39:26 [wendy]
- michael's rewording: sounds like goal of the web site. simple hyperlink is not functionality.
- 20:39:40 [rscano]
- functionality (from Latin functio meaning "to perform") is the sum or any aspect of what a product, such as a software application or computing device, can do for a user
- 20:40:00 [wendy]
- where used in draft? ".1 [CORE] All functionality is operable at a minimum through a keyboard or a keyboard interface. [was 2.1] "
- 20:40:53 [wendy]
- functionality is whatever you intend to do w/a page
- 20:43:14 [rellero]
- Effectiveness maybe it is more indicative with respect to the reaching of a communicative purpose
- 20:44:23 [wendy]
- resolution: using a slightly modified version of michael's proposal.
- 20:44:32 [wendy]
- s/using/moving forward with
- 20:45:54 [bcaldwell]
- Functionality:
- 20:45:54 [bcaldwell]
-
- 20:45:54 [bcaldwell]
- Functionality is the purpose or intended effect of the content. This
- 20:45:54 [bcaldwell]
- may include presentation of information , data collection, securing a response from the user, providing user experience, linking to other content, testing, confirmation, purchasing, etc.
- 20:46:04 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=341
- 20:46:10 [wendy]
- skipping for now
- 20:46:26 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=342
- 20:47:51 [rscano]
- Delete item number 5 since it is a duplication of something which is listed as a checkpoint in 2.4
- 20:49:45 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "duplication makes sense here"
- 20:50:10 [wendy]
- jason and andi have a proposal on this item that is yet to go to the list.
- 20:50:13 [rscano]
- ack Yvette
- 20:50:13 [Zakim]
- Yvette, you wanted to say "duplication makes sense here"
- 20:50:24 [wendy]
- a duplication, but a great way to make structure perceivable.
- 20:51:03 [wendy]
- additional note under 1.5
- 20:55:33 [wendy]
- consensus: remove it
- 20:55:43 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=343
- 20:56:38 [doyle]
- doyle has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:59:56 [wendy]
- as an additional note, alt presentation formats are provided. collapses previous one and gets rid of specifying particular ways to do it.
- 20:59:57 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:00:16 [wendy]
- does this say that text-only variants of media-rich pages are ok?
- 21:00:24 [wendy]
- no
- 21:00:53 [wendy]
- do we want to give permission for text-only variants?
- 21:01:05 [wendy]
- what prevents someone from interpreting it that way (text-only is legit)?
- 21:02:37 [wendy]
- don't want to lose "text-only" as last resort
- 21:03:20 [wendy]
- ack andi
- 21:03:54 [wendy]
- issue w/combining: "i've constructed the page so that someone can use their own style sheet" vs "i have constructed the other presentation"
- 21:07:06 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "what URL? It sounds like everyone has a different version"
- 21:09:22 [Yvette]
- q-
- 21:10:02 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "is the whole purpose of 3 to emphasize structure?"
- 21:10:13 [rscano]
- ack Yvette
- 21:10:13 [Zakim]
- Yvette, you wanted to say "is the whole purpose of 3 to emphasize structure?"
- 21:12:21 [wendy]
- doesn't point 2 cover what we are trying to say?
- 21:12:35 [wendy]
- it doesn't say if it is another presentation or the ua
- 21:12:38 [wendy]
- s/control/vary
- 21:12:56 [wendy]
- new proposal: replace 2 and 3 with "content constructed such that user can vary..."
- 21:14:51 [wendy]
- "users can control the presentation of the content to emphasize the structure..."
- 21:15:14 [wendy]
- "users can control the presentation of the structural elements..."
- 21:15:26 [wendy]
- content allows users to ...
- 21:15:36 [wendy]
- content is provided in a format which allows...
- 21:18:53 [wendy]
- make it an "or"
- 21:20:45 [wendy]
- zakim, close this agendum
- 21:20:45 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 closed
- 21:20:46 [Zakim]
- I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
- 21:20:47 [Zakim]
- 3. pending issues http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=320%2C323%2C330%2C331%2C344%2C346 [from wendy]
- 21:20:55 [wendy]
- zakim, take up agendum 3
- 21:20:55 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "pending issues http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=320%2C323%2C330%2C331%2C344%2C346" taken up [from wendy]
- 21:21:07 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=320
- 21:21:35 [wendy]
- skip (not enough time)
- 21:21:43 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=323
- 21:23:25 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:23:25 [Zakim]
- Yvette should now be muted
- 21:23:38 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:24:04 [wendy]
- not just skipping nav links, also headings
- 21:24:19 [wendy]
- want to talk about bypassing blocks of repeated material.
- 21:24:25 [wendy]
- yes, that's in the proposed wording.
- 21:24:51 [wendy]
- q+ to say "7"
- 21:24:54 [wendy]
- ack michael
- 21:25:06 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "emphasise jump to content instead of over links?"
- 21:25:48 [silvia]
- bye.
- 21:26:01 [wendy]
- move end piece to benefits.
- 21:26:41 [wendy]
- (parenthetical e.g.)
- 21:26:59 [wendy]
- agree to move to benefits.
- 21:27:58 [wendy]
- add screen magnifiers
- 21:28:16 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:28:16 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "7"
- 21:29:01 [GVAN]
- q+
- 21:29:08 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:29:09 [Zakim]
- Yvette, you wanted to say "emphasise jump to content instead of over links?"
- 21:29:40 [wendy]
- 7 is arbitrary. there will be exceptions. people will want to see support.
- 21:29:53 [doyle]
- q+
- 21:30:02 [wendy]
- if put content first and navigation last, then would have "skip over content to get to navigation"
- 21:30:13 [wendy]
- thus, say "get to content or navigation when first load content"
- 21:32:04 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 21:32:26 [rscano]
- the navigation must be granted also without CSS ... so the navigation must stay at the top of the page :)
- 21:32:43 [wendy]
- q?
- 21:32:45 [wendy]
- ack gvan
- 21:32:46 [rscano]
- or have a link that skip to the navigation bar / navigation area
- 21:32:57 [wendy]
- ack doyle
- 21:34:07 [wendy]
- concern about arbitrary number.
- 21:34:22 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "doesn't the annoyance-threshold depend on length of links?"
- 21:34:30 [rscano]
- rscano has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:35:00 [wendy]
- have to have a number. e.g., ramps.
- 21:36:54 [Yvette]
- q-
- 21:38:41 [wendy]
- html specific?
- 21:40:09 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 21:40:41 [wendy]
- means to skip over blocks of repetitive material.
- 21:42:27 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 21:42:27 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Matt_May, Lee_Roberts, Wendy, JasonWhite, Ben_and_Gregg, Andi, John_Slatin, Katie_Haritos_Shea, Yvette, Bengt_Farre
- 21:42:30 [Zakim]
- ... (muted), Doyle_Burnett
- 21:45:53 [bengt]
- bye
- 21:45:55 [Zakim]
- -Andi
- 21:45:56 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 21:45:57 [Zakim]
- -Lee_Roberts
- 21:45:58 [Zakim]
- -Katie_Haritos_Shea
- 21:45:58 [rscano]
- bye
- 21:45:59 [Zakim]
- -Yvette
- 21:46:00 [Zakim]
- -Matt_May
- 21:46:01 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Scano
- 21:46:01 [rellero]
- Bye
- 21:46:02 [Zakim]
- -Ben_and_Gregg
- 21:46:03 [Zakim]
- -Doyle_Burnett
- 21:46:04 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 21:46:05 [Yvette]
- Bye all
- 21:46:06 [Zakim]
- -Bengt_Farre
- 21:46:06 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 21:46:08 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 21:46:10 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
- I see 2 open action items:
- 21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben and john work on bugzilla template [1]
- 21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/28-wai-wcag-irc#T20-13-01
- 21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy proposal to reword text wrt http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=319 [2]
- 21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/28-wai-wcag-irc#T20-30-40