IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-08-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:01:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:56 [wendy]
hello
20:01:59 [rellero]
Hi
20:02:12 [m3mSEA]
zakim, ??P3 is probably me
20:02:12 [Zakim]
+m3mSEA?; got it
20:02:12 [rscano]
zakim, ??P3 is Matt_May
20:02:12 [Zakim]
sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named '??P3'
20:02:23 [Zakim]
+Wendy
20:02:26 [Zakim]
+JasonWhite
20:02:27 [rellero]
The line on the telephone is disturbed this evening
20:02:31 [Zakim]
+??P7
20:02:36 [rscano]
zakim, who is here?
20:02:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, m3mSEA?, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite (muted), ??P7
20:02:36 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, m3mSEA, wendy, bcaldwell, rellero, Yvette, Zakim, silvia, bengt, rscano
20:02:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, m3mSEA?, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite (muted), ??P7
20:02:44 [rscano]
zakim, m3mSEA? is Matt_May
20:02:44 [Zakim]
+Matt_May; got it
20:02:56 [Yvette]
zakim, m3mSEA is probably Matt_May
20:02:56 [Zakim]
sorry, Yvette, I do not understand your question
20:02:59 [rscano]
zakim, ??P7 si Ben_and_Gregg
20:02:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P7 si Ben_and_Gregg', rscano
20:03:11 [rscano]
zakim, ??P7 is Ben_and_Gregg
20:03:11 [Zakim]
+Ben_and_Gregg; got it
20:03:17 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Matt_May, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite, Ben_and_Gregg
20:03:59 [Zakim]
+??P8
20:04:20 [wendy]
agenda+ consent decree items http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=333%2C335%2C336%2C337
20:04:21 [wendy]
%2C339%2C340%2C345%2C347%2C348%2C349%2C350%2C351
20:04:22 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
20:04:25 [wendy]
zoinks
20:04:26 [rscano]
zakim, ??P8 is Andi
20:04:26 [Zakim]
+Andi; got it
20:04:30 [Yvette]
My connection's gone
20:04:31 [wendy]
drop agendum 1
20:04:47 [rscano]
is it Klingon language? :)
20:04:50 [wendy]
agenda+ consent decree items http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=333%2C335%2C336%2C337%2C339%2C340%2C345%2C347%2C348%2C349%2C350%2C351
20:05:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.371.aaaa
20:05:14 [Zakim]
+??P11
20:05:17 [wendy]
agenda+ proposals w/out discussion http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=319%2C338%2C341%2C342%2C343
20:05:18 [Zakim]
+??P12
20:05:25 [wendy]
zakim, ??P11 is Yvette
20:05:25 [Zakim]
+Yvette; got it
20:05:30 [wendy]
zakim, ??P12 is Bengt
20:05:30 [Zakim]
+Bengt; got it
20:05:31 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
20:05:31 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink was already muted, Yvette
20:05:40 [bengt]
zakim, ??P12 is Bengt_FArre
20:05:40 [Zakim]
sorry, bengt, I do not recognize a party named '??P12'
20:05:44 [GVAN]
GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:58 [wendy]
agenda+ pending issues http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=320%2C323%2C330%2C331%2C344%2C346
20:06:02 [wendy]
zakim, who's talking?
20:06:05 [Yvette]
zakim, ??P12 is bengt
20:06:05 [Zakim]
sorry, Yvette, I do not recognize a party named '??P12'
20:06:17 [Yvette]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:06:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Matt_May, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite, Ben_and_Gregg,
20:06:17 [bengt]
zakim, Bengt is Bengt_Farre
20:06:20 [Zakim]
... Andi, John_Slatin, +1.703.371.aaaa, Yvette, Bengt
20:06:21 [Zakim]
+Bengt_Farre; got it
20:06:22 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (28%), Wendy (14%), JasonWhite (24%)
20:06:43 [wendy]
zakim, who's talking?
20:06:47 [bengt]
zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
20:06:47 [Zakim]
ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
20:06:55 [bengt]
zakim, mute me
20:06:55 [Zakim]
Bengt_Farre should now be muted
20:06:58 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (18%), Wendy (47%), JasonWhite (10%)
20:07:06 [wendy]
agenda?
20:07:19 [bengt]
Im muted in this end ? but noise from internet ?
20:07:34 [GVAN]
you are quite now
20:08:25 [wendy]
zakim, open agendum 1
20:08:25 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "consent decree items http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=333%2C335%2C336%2C337%2C339%2C340%2C345%2C347%2C348%2C349%2C350%2C351" taken up [from wendy]
20:08:39 [bengt]
who is 1.703 ?
20:08:44 [rscano]
zakim, + +1.703.371.aaaa could be Cynthia
20:08:44 [Zakim]
I don't understand '+ +1.703.371.aaaa could be Cynthia', rscano
20:09:06 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=350
20:09:22 [wendy]
generalize?
20:09:32 [wendy]
remove 350 from this list. part of other discussion.
20:09:57 [Zakim]
-Yvette_Hoitink
20:10:54 [wendy]
* <abbr title="overcome by events">OBE</abbr>
20:11:02 [wendy]
close agendum 1
20:11:11 [wendy]
zakim, take up agendum 2
20:11:11 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "proposals w/out discussion http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=319%2C338%2C341%2C342%2C343" taken up [from wendy]
20:11:32 [wendy]
319: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=319
20:12:18 [wendy]
bugzilla: issues w/screen readers and safari
20:13:01 [wendy]
action: ben and john work on bugzilla template
20:13:35 [wendy]
zakim, who's talking?
20:13:39 [bengt]
zakim, who is talking ?
20:13:46 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (74%), John_Slatin (9%), +1.703.371.aaaa (63%)
20:13:57 [Zakim]
bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (13%), +1.703.371.aaaa (36%), Wendy (51%)
20:14:18 [rscano]
zakim, +1.703.371.aaaa is Katie_Haritos_Shea
20:14:18 [Zakim]
+Katie_Haritos_Shea; got it
20:14:24 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:14:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Matt_May, Lee_Roberts, Michael_Cooper, Wendy, JasonWhite, Ben_and_Gregg, Andi, John_Slatin,
20:14:27 [Zakim]
... Katie_Haritos_Shea, Yvette, Bengt_Farre (muted)
20:14:37 [wendy]
zakim, mute Katie
20:14:37 [Zakim]
Katie_Haritos_Shea should now be muted
20:14:49 [bengt]
zakim, who is talking ?
20:15:04 [Zakim]
bengt, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (96%)
20:15:51 [wendy]
avoid "tab order." how about "navigation order"
20:17:30 [wendy]
reading order and tab order are often different.
20:18:12 [rscano]
what about "tabindex order"?
20:18:31 [wendy]
q+
20:18:41 [wendy]
ack Katie
20:18:58 [wendy]
broadening tab order, probably not a bad idea.
20:19:06 [GVAN]
Q+
20:19:16 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:20:29 [wendy]
instead of logical how about "follows visual or reading order"
20:20:33 [wendy]
or "structural order"
20:20:37 [wendy]
ack GVAN
20:20:42 [bengt]
prefer that the navigation order follows natural reading order
20:20:50 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Specifiying tab order is especially useful if different from reading order
20:21:31 [bcaldwell]
q+
20:22:00 [wendy]
q+ to say "not random"
20:22:19 [wendy]
ack yvette
20:22:19 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "Specifiying tab order is especially useful if different from reading order
20:22:59 [wendy]
ack john
20:23:34 [wendy]
"meaningful" and "logical" are not testable
20:23:47 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
20:23:47 [Zakim]
Yvette should now be muted
20:23:59 [wendy]
ack bcaldwell
20:24:06 [GVAN]
Q+
20:24:42 [wendy]
only important when talking about forms? if talking about meaningful navigation order, don't know which will be jumped to. depends on UA.
20:24:47 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:24:47 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "not random"
20:25:16 [bengt]
hihi
20:25:22 [wendy]
provide an order that is not random :)
20:25:31 [wendy]
ack Katie
20:25:36 [wendy]
why not structure?
20:26:51 [wendy]
"a non-random order typically follows structure, visual layout, or reading order"
20:26:56 [wendy]
ack GVAN
20:27:21 [wendy]
"where tab order can be specified..." instead of "where possible..." ?
20:27:53 [wendy]
where possible to specify tab order? where possible to determine logical?
20:30:40 [wendy]
action: wendy proposal to reword text wrt http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=319
20:31:16 [rscano]
q?
20:31:26 [wendy]
determinant order?
20:31:58 [wendy]
problem isn't that people are creating random tab orders.
20:32:05 [rscano]
use at least the default tab order
20:32:09 [wendy]
default tab order could be fine.
20:32:21 [rscano]
yep
20:32:22 [wendy]
wherever possible, tab order is specified unless default works
20:32:25 [Yvette]
q+ to say "only specify taborders if the default order isn't appropriate"
20:32:43 [wendy]
ack Yvette
20:32:44 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "only specify taborders if the default order isn't appropriate"
20:33:43 [Zakim]
+Doyle_Burnett
20:35:12 [rscano]
zakim, who is speaking?
20:35:24 [Zakim]
rscano, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Loretta_Guarino_Reid (22%), Ben_and_Gregg (100%), Katie_Haritos_Shea (46%)
20:35:31 [wendy]
q?
20:35:46 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=338
20:36:33 [wendy]
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/computing/functionality
20:36:36 [wendy]
q+
20:37:04 [bengt]
zakim, who is talking ?
20:37:08 [rscano]
"Functionality is the function or purpose of the content"... Functionality - Function is too ripetitive i think...
20:37:16 [Zakim]
bengt, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (48%), John_Slatin (13%), Katie_Haritos_Shea (14%), Wendy (40%)
20:37:43 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:38:21 [wendy]
michael's proposal (see list)
20:38:44 [wendy]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003JulSep/0437.html
20:38:51 [wendy]
zakim, mute katie
20:38:51 [Zakim]
Katie_Haritos_Shea should now be muted
20:39:26 [wendy]
michael's rewording: sounds like goal of the web site. simple hyperlink is not functionality.
20:39:40 [rscano]
functionality (from Latin functio meaning "to perform") is the sum or any aspect of what a product, such as a software application or computing device, can do for a user
20:40:00 [wendy]
where used in draft? ".1 [CORE] All functionality is operable at a minimum through a keyboard or a keyboard interface. [was 2.1] "
20:40:53 [wendy]
functionality is whatever you intend to do w/a page
20:43:14 [rellero]
Effectiveness maybe it is more indicative with respect to the reaching of a communicative purpose
20:44:23 [wendy]
resolution: using a slightly modified version of michael's proposal.
20:44:32 [wendy]
s/using/moving forward with
20:45:54 [bcaldwell]
Functionality:
20:45:54 [bcaldwell]
20:45:54 [bcaldwell]
Functionality is the purpose or intended effect of the content. This
20:45:54 [bcaldwell]
may include presentation of information , data collection, securing a response from the user, providing user experience, linking to other content, testing, confirmation, purchasing, etc.
20:46:04 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=341
20:46:10 [wendy]
skipping for now
20:46:26 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=342
20:47:51 [rscano]
Delete item number 5 since it is a duplication of something which is listed as a checkpoint in 2.4
20:49:45 [Yvette]
q+ to say "duplication makes sense here"
20:50:10 [wendy]
jason and andi have a proposal on this item that is yet to go to the list.
20:50:13 [rscano]
ack Yvette
20:50:13 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "duplication makes sense here"
20:50:24 [wendy]
a duplication, but a great way to make structure perceivable.
20:51:03 [wendy]
additional note under 1.5
20:55:33 [wendy]
consensus: remove it
20:55:43 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=343
20:56:38 [doyle]
doyle has joined #wai-wcag
20:59:56 [wendy]
as an additional note, alt presentation formats are provided. collapses previous one and gets rid of specifying particular ways to do it.
20:59:57 [wendy]
ack john
21:00:16 [wendy]
does this say that text-only variants of media-rich pages are ok?
21:00:24 [wendy]
no
21:00:53 [wendy]
do we want to give permission for text-only variants?
21:01:05 [wendy]
what prevents someone from interpreting it that way (text-only is legit)?
21:02:37 [wendy]
don't want to lose "text-only" as last resort
21:03:20 [wendy]
ack andi
21:03:54 [wendy]
issue w/combining: "i've constructed the page so that someone can use their own style sheet" vs "i have constructed the other presentation"
21:07:06 [Yvette]
q+ to say "what URL? It sounds like everyone has a different version"
21:09:22 [Yvette]
q-
21:10:02 [Yvette]
q+ to say "is the whole purpose of 3 to emphasize structure?"
21:10:13 [rscano]
ack Yvette
21:10:13 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "is the whole purpose of 3 to emphasize structure?"
21:12:21 [wendy]
doesn't point 2 cover what we are trying to say?
21:12:35 [wendy]
it doesn't say if it is another presentation or the ua
21:12:38 [wendy]
s/control/vary
21:12:56 [wendy]
new proposal: replace 2 and 3 with "content constructed such that user can vary..."
21:14:51 [wendy]
"users can control the presentation of the content to emphasize the structure..."
21:15:14 [wendy]
"users can control the presentation of the structural elements..."
21:15:26 [wendy]
content allows users to ...
21:15:36 [wendy]
content is provided in a format which allows...
21:18:53 [wendy]
make it an "or"
21:20:45 [wendy]
zakim, close this agendum
21:20:45 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
21:20:46 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
21:20:47 [Zakim]
3. pending issues http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=320%2C323%2C330%2C331%2C344%2C346 [from wendy]
21:20:55 [wendy]
zakim, take up agendum 3
21:20:55 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "pending issues http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=320%2C323%2C330%2C331%2C344%2C346" taken up [from wendy]
21:21:07 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=320
21:21:35 [wendy]
skip (not enough time)
21:21:43 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=323
21:23:25 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:23:25 [Zakim]
Yvette should now be muted
21:23:38 [wendy]
ack john
21:24:04 [wendy]
not just skipping nav links, also headings
21:24:19 [wendy]
want to talk about bypassing blocks of repeated material.
21:24:25 [wendy]
yes, that's in the proposed wording.
21:24:51 [wendy]
q+ to say "7"
21:24:54 [wendy]
ack michael
21:25:06 [Yvette]
q+ to say "emphasise jump to content instead of over links?"
21:25:48 [silvia]
bye.
21:26:01 [wendy]
move end piece to benefits.
21:26:41 [wendy]
(parenthetical e.g.)
21:26:59 [wendy]
agree to move to benefits.
21:27:58 [wendy]
add screen magnifiers
21:28:16 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:28:16 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "7"
21:29:01 [GVAN]
q+
21:29:08 [wendy]
ack yvette
21:29:09 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "emphasise jump to content instead of over links?"
21:29:40 [wendy]
7 is arbitrary. there will be exceptions. people will want to see support.
21:29:53 [doyle]
q+
21:30:02 [wendy]
if put content first and navigation last, then would have "skip over content to get to navigation"
21:30:13 [wendy]
thus, say "get to content or navigation when first load content"
21:32:04 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:32:26 [rscano]
the navigation must be granted also without CSS ... so the navigation must stay at the top of the page :)
21:32:43 [wendy]
q?
21:32:45 [wendy]
ack gvan
21:32:46 [rscano]
or have a link that skip to the navigation bar / navigation area
21:32:57 [wendy]
ack doyle
21:34:07 [wendy]
concern about arbitrary number.
21:34:22 [Yvette]
q+ to say "doesn't the annoyance-threshold depend on length of links?"
21:34:30 [rscano]
rscano has joined #wai-wcag
21:35:00 [wendy]
have to have a number. e.g., ramps.
21:36:54 [Yvette]
q-
21:38:41 [wendy]
html specific?
21:40:09 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
21:40:41 [wendy]
means to skip over blocks of repetitive material.
21:42:27 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
21:42:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Matt_May, Lee_Roberts, Wendy, JasonWhite, Ben_and_Gregg, Andi, John_Slatin, Katie_Haritos_Shea, Yvette, Bengt_Farre
21:42:30 [Zakim]
... (muted), Doyle_Burnett
21:45:53 [bengt]
bye
21:45:55 [Zakim]
-Andi
21:45:56 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
21:45:57 [Zakim]
-Lee_Roberts
21:45:58 [Zakim]
-Katie_Haritos_Shea
21:45:58 [rscano]
bye
21:45:59 [Zakim]
-Yvette
21:46:00 [Zakim]
-Matt_May
21:46:01 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Scano
21:46:01 [rellero]
Bye
21:46:02 [Zakim]
-Ben_and_Gregg
21:46:03 [Zakim]
-Doyle_Burnett
21:46:04 [Zakim]
-Wendy
21:46:05 [Yvette]
Bye all
21:46:06 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
21:46:06 [wendy]
zakim, bye
21:46:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
21:46:10 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items:
21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben and john work on bugzilla template [1]
21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/28-wai-wcag-irc#T20-13-01
21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy proposal to reword text wrt http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=319 [2]
21:46:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/28-wai-wcag-irc#T20-30-40