IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-08-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:03:56 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:28 [r12a]: r12a has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:34 [rscano]: hi richard!
14:04:47 [r12a]: buongiorno
14:05:26 [r12a]: :)
14:05:26 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
14:05:26 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Chris_Ridpath, Ben, Dave_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper
14:06:02 [Zakim]: +R12A
14:06:08 [Arnia]: Arnia has left #wai-wcag
14:06:15 [Zakim]: +Wendy
14:06:18 [rscano]: zakim, R12A is RIchard_Ishida
14:06:18 [Zakim]: +RIchard_Ishida; got it
14:08:04 [wendy]: could someone make me channel operator?
14:08:18 [rscano]: +o wendy
14:08:29 [rscano]: :(
14:08:37 [rscano]: no-one is channel op now :(
14:08:57 [Zakim]: -RIchard_Ishida
14:09:23 [r12a]: wendy o+
14:10:24 [rscano]: can the two new one present themeself? :)
14:15:14 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
14:15:14 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Chris_Ridpath, Ben, Dave_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Wendy
14:17:09 [wendy]: ===
14:17:21 [wendy]: discussion of dave's proposal. doesn't seem controversial. will send to the list.
14:18:42 [wendy]: dave reports on survey
14:20:24 [wendy]: dave *already* sent it.
14:21:17 [wendy]: ===
14:21:19 [wendy]: ben's testing
14:21:31 [wendy]: support for object is still over the map.
14:21:50 [wendy]: embed svg w/object, paragraph in content of object. get both.
14:22:33 [wendy]: if use a .wav file, w/paragraph. instead, show media player that isn't acknowledged by jaws.
14:23:10 [wendy]: if use valid object, doesn't work (display text rather than embedded object).
14:23:22 [wendy]: if use embed + object, works as expected but not valid.
14:23:39 [wendy]: ben writing up all the tests and results.
14:24:00 [wendy]: most confusing: why does the behavior change based on content type being embedded?
14:24:26 [wendy]: i.e., w/wav doesn't present at all.
14:24:37 [wendy]: is it the media player or object rendering?
14:25:10 [wendy]: that's a known issue. paul did a good write-up about support for embedded media players.
14:26:03 [wendy]: doesn't seem to be a reliable way to provide an alternative for object.
14:29:46 [wendy]: ben will continue to test and write up results.
14:29:48 [wendy]: ===
14:29:59 [wendy]: michael posted results of survey.
14:31:28 [wendy]: acceptable means: new window notification in link text or title of link.
14:31:38 [wendy]: non-acceptable: body text or near the link or somewhere on the site
14:31:53 [wendy]: if say, "the following list of links..." not acceptable?
14:32:02 [wendy]: if use a link list, won't encounter that text.
14:32:12 [wendy]: if have titles turned off?
14:32:20 [wendy]: titles - could be controversial.
14:32:50 [wendy]: shouldn't AT or UA inform user of window creation event?
14:32:59 [wendy]: that's why this is "until user agent".
14:33:14 [wendy]: it doesn't tell you before hand but once it begins reading in new window.
14:33:41 [wendy]: main issue: knowing when you are in a new window so that you know how to get back to where you were.
14:34:01 [wendy]: if hear that for every link, get sick of hearing it.
14:34:26 [wendy]: frames: often all links in a frame will open into another frame. not a new window but change of focus.
14:36:06 [wendy]: also issue for magnification
14:37:08 [wendy]: similar issue for mobile devices (small displays)
14:37:28 [wendy]: some browsers let you configure that all new windows open in existing window.
14:38:24 [wendy]: (magnification and small display issue: if only seeing small part of screen, may not be aware of new windows opening outside of current view)
14:38:52 [wendy]: ===
14:39:07 [wendy]: michael's action to edit html-tech source
14:39:18 [wendy]: all wendy's action items are wrt edits
14:39:26 [wendy]: ===
14:39:34 [wendy]: ascii art
14:39:45 [wendy]: (in images and image maps)
14:40:17 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#ascii_art
14:40:50 [wendy]: tools automatically replacing emoticons, etc. with images w/alt-text.
14:41:00 [wendy]: some of the images have alt-text.
14:41:37 [wendy]: e.g., mozilla email reader puts in image. does it have alt-text?
14:41:51 [wendy]: are emoticons ascii art?
14:42:11 [rscano]: nope, are abbr :)
14:42:22 [wendy]: defn of ascii art? - multi-line in a pre element
14:42:42 [wendy]: emoticons are likely less of a problem than multi-line.
14:43:49 [rscano]: ASCII ART: The
14:43:49 [rscano]: fine art of drawing diagrams using the ASCII character set
14:43:49 [rscano]: (mainly "|-/\+").
14:43:56 [rscano]: http://hostingworks.com/support/dict.phtml?foldoc=ASCII+art
14:45:34 [wendy]: home page reader reads the ascii art paragraph from html techs. it reads, "For example, less than wink might substitute for a winking smiley: semi-colon dash right paren.
14:46:17 [wendy]: if define ascii art as multi-line, don't speak to emoticons?
14:46:31 [joeclark]: joeclark has joined #wai-wcag
14:46:44 [rscano]: and made <span title="Ascii art description>....... </span> ?
14:46:50 [wendy]: how does code relate to this
14:47:26 [wendy]: hey joe - are you going to join us on the phone?
14:48:47 [bcaldwell]: uvip web test thread on emoticons and screenreaders -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uvip/message/96
14:49:36 [sh1mmer]: I might add that many different places use subtley different emoticons and often the same ascii to denote different things, some of which would be difficult to express as an alt text.
14:51:36 [wendy]: trying to understand the comment, is that like using ) or P to indicate a smile or tongue-sticking out (i.e. the mouth)?
14:51:55 [bcaldwell]: another thread (from IG) on emoticons - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/1998JulSep/0335.html
14:52:50 [sh1mmer]: An example would be : (colon) - (dash) / (forward slash) could be anger or sarcasm depending on which network it is used on.
14:54:12 [joeclark]: At the level of four- or five-character ASCII smileys, the screen-reader user is just going to have to puzzle it out. Or the screen-reader manufacturer could program an exception dictionary for likely smileys, which have been well documented. WCAG WG should not spend inordinate time discussing the issue.
14:54:14 [wendy]: http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_jaws45newfeawotbl.asp
14:54:28 [rscano]: i've try it... good support for change of language :)
14:55:46 [sh1mmer]: I think my point was, how should the working group recommend dealing with issues of mappings which may depend on a context not obvious to the machine processor
14:55:51 [wendy]: two techniques: 1. ascii art 2. emoticons
14:57:09 [wendy]: joe and tom - I'm not voicing your comments on IRC. If you want to participate in the teleconference, please call in. phone details are in the topic.
14:57:15 [wendy]: (voicing your comments on irc to the telecon)
14:57:27 [wendy]: action dave: explore user agent support for emoticons
14:57:30 [joeclark]: That's fine. IRC is a parallel universe.
14:57:37 [rscano]: <spot> discount call by VoiP: www.dialpad.com </spot>
14:58:05 [joeclark]: For large sections of ASCII art, which is exceedingly rare online and does not require extensive discussion by WCAG WG, a simple skip link is sufficient.
15:01:08 [wendy]: @@ in example: no description
15:01:46 [wendy]: next example: is title on pre read?
15:02:54 [wendy]: we title is read sometimes, is it read for all elements?
15:03:01 [wendy]: 3rd example has abbr w/title.
15:03:06 [joeclark]: title on pre will be rendered in typical graphical browsers, as will title on anything, in fact. As for screen-reader rendering, that's beyond the scope of techniques guidelines. title on pre is standards-compliant; adaptive technology must support standards.
15:03:11 [wendy]: no. cases where title read in exclusion of alt. if img is a link.
15:03:23 [rscano]: title is not read for <ul> elements with Jaws...
15:03:36 [wendy]: 1st example, primary one. skip link.
15:03:46 [wendy]: if title not read, get into pre element and no warning about jumble that ensues.
15:04:12 [wendy]: inclined to highlight 1st example, downplay the other examples.
15:04:36 [wendy]: 3rd example part of separate technique (for emoticons)
15:04:59 [wendy]: like idea of including sound file (current @@ for example 2)
15:05:21 [wendy]: action: ben (ala neal) make sound recording for example 2 of ascii art
15:05:47 [joeclark]: For the benefit of the cheap seats, please tell us where in WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20030807.html we are presently located.
15:05:58 [wendy]: action: michael lots of edits to make on this section.
15:05:59 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#ascii_art
15:06:03 [wendy]: but moving on to:
15:06:17 [wendy]: ===
15:06:17 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#image_maps
15:06:52 [wendy]: 3rd checklist item has the dreaded, "until user agents..."
15:06:56 [wendy]: do we need this one?
15:08:46 [wendy]: why there? screen readers can read the text for each client-side image map, but if need to magnify text, text not shown and thus can't magnify.
15:08:57 [wendy]: user agent issue.
15:09:32 [wendy]: need to be in better touch with magnification issues.
15:10:34 [wendy]: action: wendy create contacts in low vision and magnification.
15:11:40 [rscano]: wendy, I can forward the question to the Italian low vision association if u want...
15:11:42 [wendy]: would be great to invite some people to a call. collect these issues and talk w/them.
15:11:50 [rscano]: *echo* :)
15:12:01 [wendy]: roberto - thanks. please do.
15:12:04 [rscano]: ok
15:12:22 [rscano]: please forward me when u are ready with the question
15:13:32 [wendy]: at what point do people make the switch from using magnification to jaws (i.e., what degree of magnification).
15:13:34 [joeclark]: We need to clarify the user scenarios here.
15:13:41 [wendy]: tools seem to support up to 16x
15:13:59 [joeclark]: 1. Low-vision person surfing without images.A rare case. It's up to the user agent to display the alt text for imagemaps.Authors can add titles that will also display in most browsers.
15:14:31 [joeclark]: 2. Low-vision person surfing with images.Screen magnifiers do no worse a job with e.g. text in bitmaps than they do in other forms of text. No significant hardship. title can still be used.
15:14:37 [wendy]: "Provide redundant text links for each active region of a server-side image map."
15:14:46 [joeclark]: 3. Screen-reader userIf a compliant screen reader, has access to the alt text and, presumably, title.
15:15:00 [wendy]: every pixel potentially has different location, provide text links for all? instead: provide alternative to functionality of the map
15:15:06 [joeclark]: 4. Person with mobility impairmentThen it becomes a question of tabbability and making links easy to click.
15:15:30 [joeclark]: I don't support the requirement to provide an imagemap *and* text links. That's backward and redundant and will never be adopted even by standards-compliant Web authors, let alone anyone else.
15:15:55 [joeclark]: It is not true that "every pixel potentially has different location."
15:16:11 [joeclark]: the spec specifies that the top-left pixel is (0,0), an absolute reference.
15:16:22 [joeclark]: other pixels in the imagemap are located from taht anchor point.there is never any ambiguity.
15:16:58 [joeclark]: I recommend the Working Group look at the existing accessible imagemaps (several cited in my book, plus all the ones I use) and make some themselves on test pages.
15:17:13 [wendy]: proposal: replace this checklist item with something along the lines of "if a server-side image map needs to be used, provide alternative funcationlity" so that list of links no longer required (unless easy to do?)
15:17:33 [rscano]: yep
15:18:25 [joeclark]: Cf. pp. 188-189 in _Building Accessible Websites_http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter08.html#h2-6590
15:19:00 [joeclark]: Auxiliary proposal: Evaluate current usage levels of server-side imagemaps.I've only encountered one in the last year, and didn't bookmark it.
15:19:08 [wendy]: techniques become: 1. how to make client-side accessible 2. use client-side instead of server-side 3. if have to use server-side... 4. ?? links for client-side??
15:19:17 [wendy]: isn't 2 part of rationale for 1?
15:19:36 [wendy]: from tool perspective, it's a good check.
15:20:02 [wendy]: few cases where using server-side is justifiable, thus a good separate check.
15:21:50 [wendy]: editorial note: (about printable characters), remove the paragraph?
15:22:24 [wendy]: yes. remove.
15:23:05 [joeclark]: Should also remove "As with other links, the link text should make sense when read out of context."
15:23:47 [joeclark]: If [258]IMG is used to insert the image, provide an alternative
15:23:59 [wendy]: image maps as submit buttons in forms: possible to send mouse coordinates instead of submit. but, how often is it used?
15:24:01 [joeclark]: that advice essentially says "place a hyperlink in alt," which is impossible and unwise.
15:24:03 [wendy]: remove it?
15:24:32 [wendy]: so rare, more confusing to attempt to speak to it?
15:24:40 [joeclark]: Yes, much too rare to emphasize.
15:25:07 [joeclark]: Also, the emphasis on use of the object element will be unworkable until whatever replaces IE on Windows comes into being because IE on Windows has unreliable object support. Hence few developers use it.
15:25:10 [wendy]: it's gone!
15:25:34 [wendy]: action: michael to delete server-side as submit button
15:27:49 [wendy]: action: michael add editorial note: whatever we say about link text needs to match (with what we say here - reading text links out of context).
15:27:59 [wendy]: is there a special case for image map links?
15:28:09 [wendy]: strike "as with other links?"
15:28:29 [wendy]: refering to: "Provide text equivalents for image maps since they convey visual information. As with other links, the link text should make sense when read out of context. Refer to the section on Link Text for information on writing good link text. "
15:28:33 [wendy]: back to examples: 2nd
15:28:43 [joeclark]: http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/special/img.html
15:28:46 [wendy]: uses object - as we've already discussed today, lots of issues with.
15:29:06 [wendy]: example not diff from using img, other than image has longer description
15:29:25 [joeclark]: No, strike the entire sentence "As with other links, the link text should make sense when read out of context." The claim that links, headings, or other structural elements must make sense when robbed of structure is a non-starter.
15:29:27 [wendy]: for now: delete examples w/object
15:29:49 [joeclark]: Not delete example with object, de-emphasize.It will eventually work on most browsers in use.
15:29:54 [joeclark]: The thing to delete is "As with other links, the link text should make sense when read out of context."
15:30:11 [joeclark]: Or at least explain IE/Win's incorrect object implementation.
15:31:05 [joeclark]: Note that "If AREA is used to create the map, use the alt attribute"
15:31:05 [wendy]: at least comment them out. need to collect info. at some point want examples, confusing to keep in for now.
15:31:08 [joeclark]: should also mention use of title.
15:32:05 [wendy]: last example: server-side + text links. move to appropriate technique (once divvied into multiple)
15:32:07 [wendy]: ===
15:32:09 [wendy]: 5 minute break
15:32:12 [rscano]: ok
15:32:23 [Zakim]: -Dave_MacDonald
15:32:26 [wendy]: pick up with http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#color_contrast
15:32:27 [Zakim]: -Roberto_Scano
15:32:50 [rscano]: rscano has left #wai-wcag
15:36:19 [rscano]: rscano has joined #wai-wcag
15:40:45 [Zakim]: +??P0
15:41:01 [rscano]: zakim, ?P0 is Roberto_Scano
15:41:01 [Zakim]: sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named '?P0'
15:41:17 [rscano]: zakim, ??P0 is Roberto_Scano
15:41:17 [Zakim]: +Roberto_Scano; got it
15:42:03 [rscano]: zakim, mute me
15:42:03 [Zakim]: sorry, rscano, I do not see a party named 'rscano'
15:42:14 [rscano]: zakim, i am Roberto_Scano
15:42:14 [Zakim]: ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
15:42:27 [rscano]: zakim, mute me
15:42:27 [Zakim]: Roberto_Scano should now be muted
15:42:46 [bcaldwell]: picking up notes until Wendy returns...
15:43:02 [bcaldwell]: color in images - do we want to have a specific tech. for color in images and another for color in general?
15:43:42 [bcaldwell]: some of this belongs in gateway techniques (good contrast, etc.)
15:43:51 [rscano]: http://h10014.www1.hp.com/accessibility/color_contrast.htm#colortool
15:43:59 [bcaldwell]: w/ text color, user can override -- thus color in images may be more important
15:44:10 [joeclark]: WCAG needs much more careful regulation of colour, since the entire guidelines are based on faulty information.
15:44:18 [joeclark]: WCAG should not even consider regulating colour in images.
15:44:57 [bcaldwell]: is there an algorithm for sufficient contrast?
15:45:21 [joeclark]: Contrast is not the issue for colourblind people.
15:46:10 [bcaldwell]: @@ Chris to look into further work on algorithm for AERT contrast algorithm
15:46:18 [rscano]: i think there is an algorithm: http://aprompt.snow.utoronto.ca/ColorVisibilityProgram.html
15:46:35 [rscano]: we need to ask to: Chris Ridpath :)
15:46:36 [joeclark]: I repeat, contrast is not the central issue in colourblindness.
15:46:52 [sh1mmer]: i believe stanford have an algorithm to correct for 2 type of colour blindness
15:47:14 [sh1mmer]: http://www.vischeck.com/daltonize/
15:47:24 [joeclark]: There are three significant forms of colourblindness, and in none of them is contrast much of a differentiator. *Brightness* and *hue* are the issues.
15:48:05 [Zakim]: +Dave_MacDonald
15:48:18 [bcaldwell]: not really an HTML technique, would apply to any technology that embeds images
15:48:22 [joeclark]: [waiting for group members to acknowledge that the issue they're concentrating on is incorrect]
15:48:50 [wendy]: joe - if you want to participate in the conversation, please join the call.
15:48:57 [joeclark]: WCAG should not micromanage colour choices in images any more than it should micromanage writing.
15:49:04 [joeclark]: I am participating in the IRC, Wendy.
15:49:12 [wendy]: that is not participating.
15:49:19 [wendy]: this channel is used to take notes.
15:49:25 [wendy]: the primary conversation is on the phone.
15:49:26 [bcaldwell]: 2 issues (one is contrast, another is meaning in color)
15:49:51 [joeclark]: Contrast is not an issue.Hue and brightness are issues.
15:49:52 [wendy]: you are engaging in a separate discussion (primarily with yourself)
15:50:22 [joeclark]: And since Wendy has deemed that I am not participating and am essentially talking to myself, I suppose I'd best be off. Expect to be corrected on the mailing listsa.
15:50:24 [joeclark]: joeclark has left #wai-wcag
15:53:04 [bcaldwell]: text-equiv techniques are for those who do not perceive the image
15:53:19 [bcaldwell]: color techniques are for those with color perception difficulties
15:54:21 [wendy]: i can take notes again, if you like.
15:54:39 [bcaldwell]: great - thx.
15:55:20 [wendy]: example: bullets. same image. one red, one blue. should they be different shapes?
15:55:40 [wendy]: information conveyed by bullet needs to conveyed, either shape or by text equiv.
15:57:30 [wendy]: color choices are part of freedom of expression.
15:58:06 [wendy]: underlying assumption, you want content to be perceived. thus, we are offering help about how to make thinks perceivable. if you don't want to, that's a different issue.
15:59:15 [wendy]: needs to be a general disclaimer that says, "assumption you are trying to make your content perceivable, understandable..." these are guidelines to help you do that.
15:59:42 [wendy]: trying to minimize limits on freedom of expression, if your goal is not to be perceivable, et al then you might knowingly violate the guidelines.
16:03:41 [rscano]: we could point a link to a table like this as "suggestion" for the different colour disability: http://more.btexact.com/people/rigdence/colours/colours1.htm
16:04:21 [wendy]: interesting what people find is a color issue. someone recently said white on dark blue is an issue for people with low vision and color blindness.
16:05:25 [wendy]: as age, blue becomes black. white on blue, blue should go to black so should be like white on black.
16:06:26 [wendy]: "As we age the lens yellows, which means it absorbs more in the shorter wavelengths. So the result is that people are more sensitive to longer wavelengths (yellows and oranges) than they are to shorter wavelengths (cyan to blue) and this increases with age. The fluid between the lens and the retina also absorb light and this increases as we age, so older people become less sensitive to light in general, and especially the sensitivity to blue decreases."
16:06:31 [wendy]: from: http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~tony/334/perception/perception.htm
16:06:40 [wendy]: thus, talk more about in gateway techniques.
16:06:47 [wendy]: can't address well in HTML techniques.
16:06:56 [wendy]: propose: flag the issue, come back to.
16:07:24 [wendy]: literal blanks that need to get filled in before we design a technique.
16:07:54 [wendy]: action: michael put color (usage and contrast) in gateway techniques discussion agenda.
16:09:00 [rscano]: yes
16:10:46 [wendy]: ===
16:11:16 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#animated_images
16:11:23 [wendy]: is distractibility covered in guidelines?
16:12:46 [wendy]: currently, only place word "distract" appears is in relation to 2.3 (flicker)
16:14:42 [rscano]: auch... all post are lost?
16:14:55 [wendy]: not lost, in queue. will be sent after back up.
16:15:01 [rscano]: aah :)
16:15:53 [wendy]: browser issue. browser can stop animations.
16:16:03 [wendy]: can only stop gif, not flash.
16:16:15 [wendy]: automatic refresh?
16:16:36 [wendy]: stop, but not on demand.
16:16:59 [wendy]: how many user agents need to support before we say it is sufficiently supported?
16:17:17 [wendy]: what do we say? nothing there right now
16:17:27 [wendy]: a deprecated technique? log user agents for which it applies?
16:18:12 [wendy]: can talk about flicker, but not distractibility. distractibility in user agent domain?
16:19:27 [wendy]: distractibility: movement (where not central to content), provide animated content as opposed to text (can enhance learning process), customization of color, font size (anything can do to make it look more interesting, increase likelihood will pay attention)
16:19:31 [wendy]: (ideas from CAST)
16:19:37 [wendy]: mostly covered by customization
16:19:45 [wendy]: something to add to 3.3?
16:21:03 [wendy]: already there - wrt to illustrations?
16:21:12 [wendy]: yes
16:21:41 [wendy]: another gateway issue, b/c says how to use images not about how to include them in html.
16:22:50 [wendy]: what to move to gateway?
16:23:10 [wendy]: (missing piece) seems to boil down to using images to increase understanding. there isn't anything in gateway about this.
16:23:48 [wendy]: much of the issue falls into user agent domain. reopen discussion once get to in gateway techniques.
16:23:49 [wendy]: ===
16:24:00 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#objects
16:24:01 [rscano]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#objects
16:25:11 [wendy]: regardless of what say in intro, need techniques re: proper usage of applet and object element.
16:26:28 [rscano]: yep
16:26:53 [wendy]: delete, "The OBJECT element in " from 1st sentence. then "While " and "OBJECT is the preferred method" from the 2nd paragraph.
16:27:32 [wendy]: applet only load applet object. embed only loads non-java applet programmatic content. object does both.
16:27:49 [wendy]: (object does both in theory)
16:28:16 [wendy]: action: michael make edits related to editorial note in programmatic ojbects and applets
16:29:47 [wendy]: need one section that discusses text equivalents, another section about making them directly accessible.
16:32:54 [wendy]: however, if people wanting to learn about an element (except object) have to go to multiple places. have heard people like to go to one place to learn all techniques related to an element.
16:33:22 [wendy]: new technique: text equiv for applet.
16:36:30 [wendy]: problem with current embed/object technique: no alt on embed, the object and embed content both are rendered.
16:36:44 [wendy]: the example needs to be changed.
16:36:45 [rscano]: but applet is deprecated since HTML 4....
16:37:25 [wendy]: applet deprecated, embed never part of spec. html v xhtml
16:38:29 [wendy]: action: wendy to figure a way to deprecate whole techniques not just examples.
16:38:46 [wendy]: action: wendy to figure a way to mark some techniques as legacy
16:39:17 [wendy]: s/legacy/future
16:39:21 [wendy]: drop action 10
16:39:29 [wendy]: RRSAgent, drop action 10
16:39:43 [wendy]: action: wendy to figure a way to mark some techniques as future
16:40:13 [wendy]: RRSAgent, drop action 9
16:40:39 [wendy]: action: wendy to figure a way to mark whole techniques as legacy not just examples (currently as "deprecated").
16:41:49 [wendy]: ===
16:41:50 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#java_applets
16:42:20 [wendy]: requirement: when including technology b in technology a, make technology b as accessible as possible. then, refer to resources for technology b.
16:42:48 [wendy]: i.e., java, flash, pdf, etc.
16:43:04 [wendy]: to extent can't make it accessible, also provide techniques in technology a provide fallbacks.
16:43:43 [wendy]: ===
16:43:44 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#embed_element
16:44:06 [wendy]: object element issue
16:44:29 [rscano]: we could put the good example from ALA: http://www.alistapart.com/stories/flashsatay/
16:45:02 [sh1mmer]: rscano there are still some issues with flash satay
16:45:21 [rscano]: ok
16:45:25 [sh1mmer]: i will update the list after i talk some more with bob regan
16:45:25 [wendy]: have to provide non-valid techniques? 4.1 makes an exception.
16:45:33 [wendy]: for backward compatibility.
16:46:15 [wendy]: ultimately require a statement? include: here's why i use embed, here are the access keys i use...
16:46:29 [wendy]: good practice, not requirement. similar to privacy statement.
16:47:23 [wendy]: be an extended checkpoint. don't see it fitting under any one checkpoint.
16:49:08 [wendy]: html wg think of us writing techniques for embed?
16:50:20 [wendy]: 2 types of deprecated: not recommended and deprecated
16:50:26 [wendy]: need to more clearly separate
16:50:34 [Zakim]: -Wendy
16:50:40 [wendy]: oops. i just got dropped.
16:51:14 [Zakim]: +Wendy
16:51:21 [bcaldwell]: maybe we need another term, like out of spec techniques?
16:54:31 [wendy]: need to pass by HTML WG, good time/place might be at tech plenary
16:54:34 [wendy]: in february
16:55:26 [wendy]: ===
16:55:31 [wendy]: next week: get through frames and forms
16:55:58 [wendy]: audio and video - goes to gateway techniques
16:56:51 [wendy]: similar issue to "if use format b in format a" resources: SMIL techniques, caption quicktime, etc.
16:57:13 [wendy]: ===
16:57:41 [wendy]: f2f mtg
16:58:14 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2003/09/f2f-agenda.html
16:58:17 [wendy]: updated agenda.
16:59:59 [wendy]: one other mtg before f2f. currently don't have it set for a 3 hour meeting, currently leave undetermined.
17:00:02 [wendy]: next week is extended.
17:01:20 [rscano]: http://web.idirect.com/~qualtore/
17:01:29 [rscano]: Quality Inn Hotel :)
17:02:11 [wendy]: RRSAgent, bye
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: I see 10 open action items:
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: dave to explore user agent support for emoticons [1]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T14-57-27
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ben (ala neal) make sound recording for example 2 of ascii art [2]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T15-05-21
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael lots of edits to make on this section. [3]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T15-05-58
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy create contacts in low vision and magnification. [4]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T15-10-34
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael to delete server-side as submit button [5]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T15-25-34
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael add editorial note: whatever we say about link text needs to match (with what we say here - reading text links out of context). [6]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-49
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael put color (usage and contrast) in gateway techniques discussion agenda. [7]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T16-07-54
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael make edits related to editorial note in programmatic ojbects and applets [8]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-16
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy to figure a way to mark some techniques as future [11]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T16-39-43
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy to figure a way to mark whole techniques as legacy not just examples (currently as "deprecated"). [12]
17:02:11 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/20-wai-wcag-irc#T16-40-39
17:02:37 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
17:02:38 [Zakim]: -Ben
17:02:39 [Zakim]: -Dave_MacDonald
17:02:40 [Zakim]: -Chris_Ridpath
17:02:41 [Zakim]: -Roberto_Scano
17:02:43 [Zakim]: -Wendy
17:02:44 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended