IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-08-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:56:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:57:07 [Zakim]
+??P14
19:57:17 [rellero]
rellero has joined #wai-wcag
19:57:21 [Yvette]
zakim, ??P14 is Yvette_Hoitink
19:57:21 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink; got it
19:58:35 [rscano]
zakim, who is on the phone?
19:58:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Yvette_Hoitink
19:59:11 [Zakim]
+??P15
19:59:38 [rscano]
Zakim, ??P15 is Christine
19:59:38 [Zakim]
+Christine; got it
19:59:53 [rscano]
zakim, who is on the phone?
19:59:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Yvette_Hoitink, Christine (muted)
20:00:12 [rscano]
zakim, who is speaking?
20:00:14 [Zakim]
+??P16
20:00:23 [Zakim]
rscano, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Roberto_Scano (25%), ??P16 (4%)
20:00:33 [rscano]
zakim, ??P16 is Roberto_Ellero
20:00:33 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Ellero; got it
20:00:57 [Zakim]
+??P17
20:01:15 [Zakim]
+Avi_Arditti
20:01:24 [bcaldwell]
bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:25 [Zakim]
+??P18
20:01:31 [Zakim]
+??P21
20:01:37 [Zakim]
+Wendy
20:01:44 [m3mSEA]
m3mSEA has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:45 [rellero]
zakim, mute Roberto_Ellero
20:01:45 [Zakim]
Roberto_Ellero should now be muted
20:01:49 [rscano]
zakim, ??P17 is Ben_Gregg_Harding
20:01:49 [Zakim]
+Ben_Gregg_Harding; got it
20:01:49 [m3mSEA]
zakim, who's here?
20:01:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Yvette_Hoitink, Christine (muted), Roberto_Ellero (muted), Ben_Gregg_Harding, Avi_Arditti, ??P18, ??P21, Wendy
20:01:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see m3mSEA, bcaldwell, rellero, RRSAgent, wendy, rscano, bengt, mcappelli, Yvette, Zakim
20:01:57 [m3mSEA]
zakim, ??P21 is me
20:01:57 [Zakim]
+m3mSEA; got it
20:02:15 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Yvette_Hoitink, Christine, Roberto_Ellero (muted), Ben_Gregg_Harding, Avi_Arditti, ??P18, m3mSEA, Wendy
20:02:19 [Yvette]
zakim, mute Yvette_Hoitink
20:02:19 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:02:20 [Zakim]
+Dave_MacDonald
20:02:27 [wendy]
zakim, ??P18 Kerstin
20:02:27 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P18 Kerstin', wendy
20:02:39 [Zakim]
+Jibari
20:02:40 [wendy]
zakim, ??P18 is Kerstin
20:02:40 [Zakim]
+Kerstin; got it
20:02:48 [wendy]
zakim, Christine is Cynthia
20:02:48 [Zakim]
+Cynthia; got it
20:02:51 [wendy]
zakim, who's here?
20:02:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Cynthia (muted), Roberto_Ellero (muted), Ben_Gregg_Harding, Avi_Arditti, Kerstin, m3mSEA, Wendy, Dave_MacDonald, Jibari
20:02:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see m3mSEA, bcaldwell, rellero, RRSAgent, wendy, rscano, bengt, mcappelli, Yvette, Zakim
20:03:10 [Zakim]
+??P25
20:03:19 [Zakim]
+JasonWhite
20:03:30 [bengt]
Zakim, ??P25 is Bengt_Farre
20:03:30 [Zakim]
+Bengt_Farre; got it
20:04:12 [wendy]
zakim, Ben_Gregg_Harding is Ben_Gregg_Graham_Tony
20:04:12 [Zakim]
+Ben_Gregg_Graham_Tony; got it
20:04:21 [rscano]
zakim, mute me
20:04:21 [Zakim]
Roberto_Scano should now be muted
20:04:23 [wendy]
Graham Harding, Tony Carpenter
20:04:29 [bengt]
zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
20:04:29 [Zakim]
ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
20:04:56 [Yvette]
zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
20:04:56 [Zakim]
ok, Yvette, I now associate you with Yvette_Hoitink
20:05:32 [Zakim]
+??P4
20:05:59 [wendy]
zakim, ??P4 is Andi
20:05:59 [Zakim]
+Andi; got it
20:06:19 [rscano]
zakim, who is here?
20:06:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano (muted), Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Cynthia (muted), Roberto_Ellero (muted), Ben_Gregg_Graham_Tony, Avi_Arditti, Kerstin, m3mSEA, Wendy,
20:06:22 [Zakim]
... Dave_MacDonald, Jibari, Bengt_Farre, JasonWhite, Andi
20:06:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see m3mSEA, bcaldwell, rellero, RRSAgent, wendy, rscano, bengt, mcappelli, Yvette, Zakim
20:07:39 [wendy]
first case of photo-sensitive epilepsy recorded in 1800s
20:07:55 [wendy]
a flickering candle had caused a seizure in someone.
20:09:01 [wendy]
legend about potter's wheel causing seizures.
20:09:23 [wendy]
(Dr. Graham Harding is presenting to the group about photo-sensitive epilepsy)
20:09:44 [wendy]
PSE seizures induced by visual stimulus.
20:09:58 [wendy]
prevelance is about 1 in 4,000
20:10:33 [wendy]
of people who have had a seizure. it is unknown how many people are photo-sensitive but have not had a seizure
20:10:46 [wendy]
incidence of PSE (# of new cases/year).
20:10:56 [wendy]
in UK, 1.1/100K /year
20:11:09 [wendy]
restricted to 17-19 year age group icnreases to 5.7
20:11:15 [wendy]
(5 times as common for young people)
20:11:21 [wendy]
age of onset peaks around puberty
20:11:24 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
20:11:46 [wendy]
zakim, who is talking?
20:11:57 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_Gregg_Graham_Tony (33%), Bengt_Farre (11%)
20:12:03 [wendy]
zakim, mute Bengt_Farre
20:12:03 [Zakim]
Bengt_Farre should now be muted
20:12:13 [wendy]
heard a minor echo. seems to be gone now.
20:12:22 [wendy]
strong genetic factor.
20:12:36 [wendy]
most provoking stimuli?
20:13:02 [wendy]
television (in europe) - 50 Hz (same as electricity). 49% are sensitive to that frequency
20:13:22 [bengt]
PAL Phase Alternate Lines
20:13:38 [wendy]
that's PAL (europe). for NTSC (american) - 60 Hz only 15% are sensitive.
20:14:25 [wendy]
thus, probably same prevalance in populatin but less occurence b/c of flash rates of tv.
20:14:49 [wendy]
ntsc more likely that patients view tv closely and can resolve the 2 lines on the tv
20:14:57 [wendy]
(closely = ~1 meter)
20:15:26 [wendy]
this does not include content or number of frames. it is the effect of the tv itself.
20:15:44 [wendy]
a function of binocular vision (need two eyes to be photo-sensitive)
20:16:22 [wendy]
thus, cover one eye. (don't close eyes - peak sensitivity)
20:16:26 [wendy]
===
20:16:27 [wendy]
color
20:16:29 [bengt]
zakim, who is talking?
20:16:42 [Zakim]
bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Andi (90%), Ben_Gregg_Graham_Tony (62%)
20:17:02 [wendy]
colors w/ long wavelengths are provocative
20:17:15 [wendy]
most patients who are photo sensitive are often pattern sensitive
20:17:40 [wendy]
high contrast material presented at particular spatial frequencies. 2-3 cycles/degree most sensitive 5-6 cycles/degre
20:17:45 [wendy]
spatial luminence change
20:17:48 [wendy]
rather than temporal
20:18:03 [wendy]
bars more provocative than checkerboards
20:18:10 [Zakim]
-Cynthia
20:18:23 [wendy]
narrower, longer lines more provocative. doesn't matter orientation.
20:18:34 [Zakim]
+??P8
20:18:46 [Zakim]
-??P8
20:19:02 [Zakim]
+??P8
20:19:34 [wendy]
1970s BBC "top of the pops" had flickering lights and produced seizures in several people.
20:19:56 [wendy]
1997 pokemon, 4 seconds, 685 hospital visits
20:20:28 [wendy]
another group, people who have epilepsy who are also photo-sensitive (5-10% of people with epilepsy?)
20:20:35 [wendy]
pokemon: red and blue
20:20:59 [wendy]
not sure if on computer displays if possible to get long wavelength red. look into to see what the color spectrum is.
20:21:55 [wendy]
guidelines used in the UK and in Japan (similar ones in Russia and proposal for international) flash rates restricted to 3/seconds or less
20:22:15 [wendy]
spatial frequencies: bars should be roughly 0.5 and 6 cycles/degree where reasonably high contrast
20:22:32 [wendy]
luminence change of XX YY (missed # and measurement)
20:22:41 [wendy]
restrict area that can be shown.
20:23:01 [wendy]
less than 25% of tv screen.
20:23:08 [wendy]
less thatn 40% if stationary pattern
20:23:23 [wendy]
issues are different for computer screen.
20:23:29 [wendy]
viewing difference is different.
20:23:31 [bengt]
spatial frequency "not between" 0.5 and 6 cycles per degree
20:23:43 [wendy]
thus causing difference in field of vision (% it takes up)
20:24:59 [rellero]
q+ to say "The vertical frequency is influential to the same way as the television in the monitors?"
20:25:11 [wendy]
gregg and graham recorded a video interview that will be made available on the Web.
20:26:00 [wendy]
to create red on tv there is not phosphorous, but there are two spikes.
20:26:14 [bengt]
url: http://www.epilepsytoronto.org/people/eaupdate/vol9-3.html
20:26:17 [wendy]
in eye: red cone, blue cone, and green cone. blue and red overlap, almost identical.
20:28:04 [wendy]
red flash perhaps more trouble due to differences in way red handled by eye.
20:28:25 [wendy]
tony describes tool he's developed to work with televisions.
20:28:50 [wendy]
q+ rscano to say "can translate in italian this page contents and put in webaccessibile.org?"
20:28:59 [rscano]
thank u wendy :)
20:29:02 [wendy]
:)
20:29:31 [wendy]
pass video into machine. analyze for the 4 areas stated in the tv commission guidelines.
20:29:35 [wendy]
(mentioned above)
20:30:59 [wendy]
allowed 3 flashes/second. not allowed to exceed 25% of screen. no more than 20 candellas of contrast chagne in that space (?160 candellas)
20:31:28 [bengt]
"candela" "candelas"
20:31:42 [wendy]
red: 3 /second. 80% saturaction levels of red are dangerous.
20:31:47 [rscano]
s/candellas/candelas
20:31:54 [wendy]
spatial pattern: detect more than 5 pairs of attributes
20:31:58 [wendy]
if moving, 25%
20:32:01 [wendy]
if static, x%
20:32:15 [wendy]
if smoothly flow across the screen, exempt
20:32:55 [wendy]
extended failure: none of broad levels are exceeded but over time might have same effect
20:33:04 [wendy]
i.e., keep something oscillating could cause an issue
20:33:14 [wendy]
feed video in. produce trace on graph.
20:33:31 [wendy]
trace "hardings" that represent a visual rating system
20:33:57 [wendy]
that indicates level of risk
20:34:09 [wendy]
individual frames are highlighted as those that have failed
20:34:55 [wendy]
allowed 6 transitions/second
20:35:27 [wendy]
describes features of tool
20:35:35 [wendy]
wrt television and CRT
20:35:46 [wendy]
25% or 40% for something at other side of room.
20:36:02 [wendy]
same angle of view for screen in front of you (monitor) could be as little as 10 or 5%
20:36:35 [wendy]
advantage: 90% of sensitivity in 10% of vision (central)
20:37:16 [wendy]
as bring screen close, sensitivity changes
20:37:38 [wendy]
resolution higher, thus higher sensitivity to patterns
20:38:39 [wendy]
if content takes up whole screen (on computer) then smaller percentage and takes up 10 degrees then sensitivity increases perhaps into that "danger zone"
20:40:26 [wendy]
goal is to create a free, downloadable tool that allows you to play or browser content, it will analyze, create file, see triggers as it goes along. what the risk factors rise and fall.
20:40:39 [wendy]
q?
20:41:40 [wendy]
describe commercial that failed test and how could fix it w/out changing it much.
20:41:58 [wendy]
you can have flashing, but need to design it carefully
20:42:29 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Do LCD monitors cause seizures as well or is it just CRTs?"
20:42:46 [wendy]
ack rellero
20:42:46 [Zakim]
rellero, you wanted to say "The vertical frequency is influential to the same way as the television in the monitors?"
20:43:45 [bengt]
regarding lcd? http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/photo.html last part
20:44:05 [wendy]
talk only about central 10 degrees
20:44:26 [Yvette]
q-
20:44:34 [wendy]
take an area of 10 degrees of vision, then rules are the same on the tv and computer
20:44:36 [rscano]
q-
20:44:49 [wendy]
not just vertical lines, doesn't matter orientation. it's the ratio.
20:44:56 [wendy]
diagonal as much a problem as vertical.
20:45:10 [wendy]
critical is the spatial frequency across central 10 degrees of vision where you are looking on the screen.
20:45:16 [rscano]
q- rscano
20:45:24 [wendy]
doesn't apply since tv viewed from greater distance.
20:45:32 [bengt]
spatial frequency also for LCD ?
20:45:56 [wendy]
q+ bengt
20:46:00 [wendy]
q+ cynthia
20:46:14 [bengt]
yep
20:46:14 [rscano]
unmute Bengt_Farre
20:46:21 [bengt]
zakim, unmute me
20:46:21 [Zakim]
Bengt_Farre should no longer be muted
20:46:32 [rscano]
he is unmuted
20:47:26 [wendy]
bengt asks: regarding spatial frequency, does that also apply to LCD screen?
20:47:40 [wendy]
zakim, mute Bengt_Farre
20:47:40 [Zakim]
Bengt_Farre should now be muted
20:47:51 [wendy]
it is irrespective of the type of screen being used.
20:48:15 [wendy]
fixation point on any monitor, take 10 degrees around that
20:48:25 [rellero]
q+ to say "01,9901again about monitor vertical frequency, is a monitor with a vf of 50 Hz more dangerous of a monitor at 140 Hz? 01,99"
20:48:33 [bengt]
q-
20:48:43 [rscano]
q- bengt
20:49:10 [bengt]
Yes
20:49:23 [wendy]
zakim, who's talking?
20:49:34 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_Gregg_Graham_Tony (26%), Kerstin (94%)
20:49:49 [wendy]
zakim, Kerstin is Cythia.a
20:49:49 [Zakim]
+Cythia.a; got it
20:49:54 [wendy]
zakim, Cynthia is Kerstin
20:49:54 [Zakim]
sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named 'Cynthia'
20:49:59 [wendy]
zakim, who's here?
20:49:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Roberto_Ellero (muted), Ben_Gregg_Graham_Tony, Avi_Arditti, Cythia.a, m3mSEA, Wendy, Dave_MacDonald, Jibari, Bengt_Farre
20:50:02 [Zakim]
... (muted), JasonWhite, Andi, Michael_Cooper, ??P8 (muted)
20:50:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see m3mSEA, bcaldwell, rellero, RRSAgent, wendy, rscano, bengt, mcappelli, Yvette, Zakim
20:50:22 [wendy]
zakim, ??P8 is Kerstin
20:50:22 [Zakim]
+Kerstin; got it
20:50:26 [rscano]
zakim, cynthia.a is Cynthia_Shelly
20:50:26 [Zakim]
sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named 'cynthia.a'
20:50:41 [rscano]
zakim, Cythia.a is Cynthia_Shelly
20:50:41 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly; got it
20:51:34 [Zakim]
-Kerstin
20:51:56 [wendy]
new monitors getting away from scanning system used on crt. this will remove that risk (that becomes less of a risk as frequency rate increases)
20:52:12 [wendy]
LCD, plasma - are all reducing the risk.
20:52:21 [wendy]
but it makes no difference to the presentation of material.
20:52:53 [wendy]
30-50 degrees of view... in tv, how do you handle things like someone who has a large screen.
20:52:56 [Zakim]
+??P8
20:53:07 [rscano]
zakim, ??P8 is Kerstin
20:53:07 [Zakim]
+Kerstin; got it
20:53:43 [wendy]
not critical b/c we've done calculations that show that the diff between a 20" and 60" tv viewed at normal viewing distance (8 ft) doesn't make any difference.
20:53:54 [wendy]
90% of visual cortex dealing with central 10 degrees of vision
20:54:22 [wendy]
10% requires 120degrees. no matter how big screen gets, contribution not significant
20:54:43 [wendy]
situation w/computer screens: central 10 degrees, but where looking? assumption w/tv is that looking at center of tv
20:54:49 [wendy]
diff from computer display
20:55:14 [wendy]
what about cnn-like content w/ticker on bottom, etc.
20:55:21 [wendy]
luckily, not much flicker in those
20:56:16 [wendy]
discusses program and web site for CBC
20:56:48 [rscano]
q?
20:57:03 [wendy]
want to put up examples but afraid to cause seizure. however, can show a thumbnail.
20:57:22 [wendy]
ack cynthia
21:03:16 [wendy]
rellero - do you still have your question? seems to me he already answered that in response to cynthia, or am i missing something?
21:04:20 [rellero]
Yes, was answered
21:04:23 [bengt]
interesting question what is the cutoff frequency for flicker ?
21:04:34 [rscano]
q- rellero
21:04:43 [wendy]
ack Avi
21:04:57 [wendy]
is there a break even point? ideal where don't risk seizure but get people to comprehend more
21:05:10 [wendy]
like fast reading techniques. there is a break point.
21:06:36 [wendy]
(something like) one music video had over 600 violations in 3 minutes (?)
21:06:49 [rscano]
Spice Girls :)
21:07:08 [wendy]
instance of one music video that was broadcast that caused seizures
21:07:29 [wendy]
there are lawsuits in the US against gaming companies. these could pressure adoption of guidelines
21:07:38 [wendy]
what if someone has a seizure? what are the dangers? what to do?
21:08:02 [wendy]
the most common type of seizure is "tonic planic" (?)
21:08:10 [wendy]
person goes stiff and fall to ground and jerk.
21:08:41 [wendy]
period where stop breathing. constriction of muscles may cause various effects.
21:08:59 [wendy]
biting tongue, sound, etc.
21:09:14 [wendy]
may come out of seizure w/in 5 minutes but not know what happened.
21:09:23 [wendy]
slowly gain recover of memory up to point of seizure.
21:09:34 [wendy]
feel tired then sleep afterwards. after come round be confused.
21:10:08 [wendy]
if see someone in a seizure, put them in recovery position. like fetal position: lying on side w/knees near chest, heads facing down to surface lying on (to keep airway clear)
21:11:13 [wendy]
may be confused and may feel threatened.
21:11:26 [wendy]
that is most common.
21:11:47 [wendy]
next: absense - they just go absent. they will glaze off, stare into space.
21:12:10 [wendy]
s/tonic planic/tonic-plonic
21:12:34 [wendy]
myclonic: jerk
21:12:44 [wendy]
primary 3 types of seizures. best response is to observe.
21:14:22 [m3mSEA]
s/tonic-plonic/tonic-clonic/
21:14:26 [bcaldwell]
http://www.crsltd.com/
21:14:45 [bcaldwell]
http://www.hardingfpa.co.uk/
21:15:10 [wendy]
http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/
21:16:10 [bengt]
wendy: the url: http://www.epilepsytoronto.org/people/eaupdate/vol9-3.html
21:16:37 [rscano]
zakim, who is speaking?
21:16:48 [Zakim]
rscano, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
21:17:24 [wendy]
documented cases of computer causing seizure?
21:17:46 [wendy]
yes. but in the UK, far less than w/tv.
21:17:59 [wendy]
more experimental use of visual material is beginning to push this up.
21:18:04 [wendy]
suspect this will change.
21:18:51 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Have websites (without games) been known to cause seizures?"
21:19:25 [wendy]
supplement to epilepsia (international journal) about video game or electronic screen game seizures.
21:19:32 [wendy]
more related to crt monitors than lcds
21:19:45 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:19:45 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:19:49 [wendy]
zakiack Yvette
21:19:52 [wendy]
ack Yvette
21:19:52 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Have websites (without games) been known to cause seizures?"
21:20:36 [wendy]
CBC
21:23:43 [rscano]
q+ say "what about Macromedia Flash animations inside web sites?"
21:24:40 [rscano]
q+ to say "what about Macromedia Flash animations inside web sites? These could be dangerous also because these can contain games"
21:25:01 [m3mSEA]
q+
21:25:12 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:25:12 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:25:35 [wendy]
ack Roberto
21:25:35 [Zakim]
Roberto_Scano, you wanted to say "what about Macromedia Flash animations inside web sites? These could be dangerous also because these can contain games"
21:26:06 [m3mSEA]
q-
21:26:14 [wendy]
nothing inherent w/Flash, but could write content that could cause seizures.
21:26:50 [wendy]
zakim, mute Roberto_Scano
21:26:50 [Zakim]
Roberto_Scano should now be muted
21:26:50 [rscano]
zakim, who is speaking?
21:26:58 [rscano]
thank u wendy
21:27:00 [wendy]
q?
21:27:01 [Zakim]
rscano, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Kerstin (4%)
21:30:35 [wendy]
how much communication is done w/people who have PSE about using a patch?
21:30:56 [wendy]
known in the UK (as a technique)
21:31:20 [wendy]
referred to in medical textbooks, but that doesn't necessarily help the patients.
21:32:09 [wendy]
amongst medics, probably well known internationally. but, how to get the info out to patients?
21:32:18 [bengt]
should be in our guideline ?
21:33:38 [wendy]
would be great if someplace that when look up "photo sensitive epilepsy" you get something about "info for people who are photo sensitive"
21:33:48 [wendy]
ie..: view tv from a distance, in a well-lit room.
21:34:02 [wendy]
in prescence of flicker, cover one eye (don't close eyes)
21:34:04 [wendy]
etc
21:34:50 [wendy]
some people might hear diagnosis from doctor, but won't also find out about assistive technology.
21:35:03 [wendy]
(happens w/a variety of conditions)
21:35:05 [Zakim]
-Andi
21:38:28 [wendy]
q?
21:38:31 [wendy]
ack kerstin
21:40:21 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
21:40:37 [wendy]
meeting adjourned
21:40:37 [Zakim]
-Kerstin
21:40:38 [Zakim]
-Avi_Arditti
21:40:46 [Zakim]
-Yvette_Hoitink
21:41:49 [Yvette]
Yvette has left #wai-wcag
21:41:59 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Scano
21:42:49 [rscano]
bye
21:44:03 [rscano]
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21:44:16 [rellero]
bye
21:44:24 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Ellero
21:44:59 [bengt]
thank you for all information about PSE
21:45:48 [Zakim]
-Jibari
21:45:50 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
21:45:51 [Zakim]
-Ben_Gregg_Graham_Tony
21:45:52 [Zakim]
-Dave_MacDonald
21:45:52 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
21:45:53 [Zakim]
-m3mSEA
21:45:54 [wendy]
zakim, bye
21:45:54 [Zakim]
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21:46:09 [bengt]
bye
21:46:11 [bengt]
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21:46:56 [mcappelli]
bye
21:49:15 [m3mSEA]
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