IRC log of rdfcore on 2003-08-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:51 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfcore

13:57:52 [danbri]

danbri has changed the topic to: rdfcore 2003-08-01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0001.html

13:57:56 [danbri]

hi kids

13:57:59 [em]

em has changed the topic to: RDF Core Aug 1 teleconference

13:58:05 [danbri]

danbri has changed the topic to: rdfcore 2003-08-01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0001.html

13:58:05 [em]

zakim, this will be RDF

13:58:05 [Zakim]

ok, em; I see SW_RDFCore()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

13:58:29 [Zakim]

SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has now started

13:58:36 [Zakim]

+??P13

13:58:43 [bwm]

Zakim, ??p13 is bwm

13:58:43 [Zakim]

+bwm; got it

13:59:01 [Zakim]

+EMiller

13:59:40 [Zakim]

+FrankM

14:00:00 [gk]

gk has joined #rdfcore

14:00:15 [Zakim]

+??P15

14:00:57 [DaveB]

Zakim, ??P15 is ILRT

14:00:57 [Zakim]

+ILRT; got it

14:00:58 [bwm]

Zakim, ??p15 is ilrt

14:00:58 [Zakim]

sorry, bwm, I do not recognize a party named '??p15'

14:01:07 [DaveB]

Zakim, ILRT has jang, DaveB

14:01:07 [Zakim]

+jang, DaveB; got it

14:02:38 [Zakim]

+GrahamKlyne

14:03:49 [Zakim]

+Danbri

14:04:15 [Daveb-scr]

meeting starts

14:04:17 [Daveb-scr]

roll call

14:04:22 [bwm]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:04:22 [Zakim]

On the phone I see bwm, EMiller, FrankM, ILRT, GrahamKlyne, Danbri

14:04:23 [Zakim]

ILRT has jang, DaveB

14:04:46 [Daveb-scr]

regrets jjc, patrick

14:04:49 [Daveb-scr]

item 3 agenda

14:04:57 [Daveb-scr]

aob update on impl report

14:05:02 [Daveb-scr]

- bwm

14:05:07 [Daveb-scr]

item 4 telcon 8 aug

14:05:21 [Daveb-scr]

jang volunteers if present (may be at risk)(

14:05:56 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: will look to see who is here next week

14:05:58 [Daveb-scr]

no scribe recorded

14:06:01 [em]

em at risk for next weeks telecon

14:06:12 [Daveb-scr]

item 5 minutes

14:06:13 [Daveb-scr]

approved

14:06:16 [Daveb-scr]

item 6 compled actions

14:06:25 [Daveb-scr]

frankm primer 4.5 action ...

14:06:34 [Daveb-scr]

20030718#5

14:06:45 [Daveb-scr]

is actually done

14:07:08 [Daveb-scr]

item 7 misc actions

14:07:23 [Daveb-scr]

20030425#10 old item

14:07:40 [Daveb-scr]

continued

14:07:46 [Daveb-scr]

20030711#4 danc

14:07:53 [Daveb-scr]

danc not present, continued

14:08:04 [Daveb-scr]

item 8 Bel in plain literals

14:08:23 [Daveb-scr]

some unicode characters are allowed inplain, not in xsd::strings

14:08:38 [Daveb-scr]

also not legal in XML

14:08:50 [Daveb-scr]

ongoing work by PatH to construct words

14:09:23 [Daveb-scr]

gk: already have unserialized graphs that can't be written in XML

14:11:02 [Daveb-scr]

desription of PatH's new wording (ptr anyone)

14:11:05 [Daveb-scr]

item 9 i18n update

14:11:13 [Daveb-scr]

bwm went to telcon

14:11:20 [Daveb-scr]

i18n telcon tuesday

14:11:50 [Zakim]

+Mike_Dean

14:12:04 [Daveb-scr]

find out what they care about

14:12:22 [em]

q+ to ask about bwm's insight on what i18n cares about

14:13:21 [gk]

q+ to asj if they *can* raise a formal objection afdter end of LC

14:13:26 [Daveb-scr]

ack gk

14:13:26 [Zakim]

gk, you wanted to asj if they *can* raise a formal objection afdter end of LC

14:13:49 [em]

q?

14:14:00 [bwm]

q?

14:14:05 [bwm]

ack em

14:14:05 [Zakim]

em, you wanted to ask about bwm's insight on what i18n cares about

14:14:31 [Daveb-scr]

earlier, em: yes they can, post LC there was a change

14:14:49 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: trying to get a better understanding

14:15:34 [Daveb-scr]

issue 1 - markup integrity

14:15:58 [Daveb-scr]

concern is that if you pick up some markup out of an xml document and you have to modify it to record a language tag such as html with lang in scope...

14:16:12 [Daveb-scr]

if you have to <span> that, you've modified it and you may not be able to recover the markup you started with

14:16:36 [Daveb-scr]

length discussion

14:17:34 [Daveb-scr]

need a more precise use case

14:17:40 [Daveb-scr]

since there doesn't seem to be a standard way to do this

14:17:49 [Daveb-scr]

issue 2 - mixed text, quite similar

14:18:16 [Daveb-scr]

example is, say you build a web scraper of and make an rdf databse of the words, some of which have lang tags

14:18:25 [Daveb-scr]

scenario, the concern is mixed text

14:18:57 [Daveb-scr]

issue 3 - comparing plain literals with xml literals

14:19:23 [Daveb-scr]

such as "plain"-en and an xml literal with same text "plain"

14:19:33 [Daveb-scr]

and martin wants them to be the same (?)

14:21:23 [gk]

q+ to ask if the I18N issues all revolve around lang tags, or is there more?

14:21:34 [Daveb-scr]

em: about seeing this as xml

14:29:45 [em]

q+

14:30:15 [Daveb-scr]

impact on schedule

14:31:29 [gk]

q-

14:32:00 [gk]

q+ to say the change of direction at this stage would incur a bit timescale hit

14:34:18 [Zakim]

+??P0

14:34:32 [Daveb-scr]

Zakim, ??P0 is JosD

14:34:32 [Zakim]

+JosD; got it

14:34:45 [Daveb-scr]

discussion of LC issue with objections

14:35:35 [em]

ack em

14:35:39 [gk]

q-

14:36:40 [Daveb-scr]

still some changes to value space of xml literal, may be in works

14:36:57 [JosD]

JosD has joined #rdfcore

14:36:58 [Daveb-scr]

item 10 primer

14:38:09 [Daveb-scr]

updates monday

14:39:05 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: I owe you a review, will only be critical things

14:39:16 [Daveb-scr]

em: will look tomorrow morning (sat) quick scan

14:39:20 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: plan for an update monday

14:39:29 [Daveb-scr]

item 11 concepts

14:39:37 [Daveb-scr]

gk: had some editorial suggestions

14:40:21 [Daveb-scr]

xml literal still need changes

14:40:29 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: pfps 22, 23?

14:41:07 [Daveb-scr]

(w00t, rdf syntax doc first edited 2001-07-20, happy birthday)

14:41:49 [Daveb-scr]

ACTION bwm will take a pass through concepts and send jeremy a todo list ASAP

14:41:58 [Daveb-scr]

... aide to jjc in order to catchup

14:42:03 [Daveb-scr]

gk: relatievly little todo

14:42:11 [Daveb-scr]

item 12 syntax

14:42:16 [danbri]

Also 2 years today since 1st f2f meeting: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20010801-f2f/

14:42:32 [gk]

q+ to mention macintiosh file type (syntax/mime docs)

14:43:00 [Daveb-scr]

dveb: to add svg, xml literal change - will propose

14:43:28 [gk]

q-

14:43:35 [Daveb-scr]

gk: want mime types to be consistent

14:43:42 [bwm]

q?

14:43:51 [Daveb-scr]

ACTION daveb: sync with aaron with mime type and make sure the docs are consitent - use same mac type

14:44:32 [Daveb-scr]

daveb: will send wording for syntax xml literal words

14:45:39 [Daveb-scr]

item 13 schema

14:45:41 [danbri]

RDFS status update, details in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0016.html

14:46:19 [Daveb-scr]

(on item 12l, daveb notes svg stuff reviwed by chrisL, happy. xml literal to mailing list today)

14:47:12 [danbri]

pfps-11 propsoal from peter: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0014.html

14:47:52 [Daveb-scr]

on pfps-11 response, still might ened more changes, want review

14:48:05 [Daveb-scr]

working on todo list

14:48:24 [Daveb-scr]

new issue roland schwartzl, error in comments of rdfs:comment of rdfs:member

14:48:31 [Daveb-scr]

needs a rewording

14:48:55 [Daveb-scr]

anyone got an alternative wording for this, please tell danbri

14:49:05 [Daveb-scr]

on admin managing of namespaces

14:49:12 [Daveb-scr]

updating rdf schemas at namespace URIs

14:49:33 [Daveb-scr]

we currently have some things in the rdf schema is a single overview of all the vocabs

14:49:43 [Daveb-scr]

need to put things at the 2 namespace uris

14:50:06 [Daveb-scr]

looks like we can do this, after confirming with emiller

14:50:15 [Daveb-scr]

danbri asks for help with this splitting up work

14:51:54 [danbri]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/TR/WD-rdf-schema-20030117/rdfs-namespace.xml is the only RDFS description of our classes and properties. Currently it does both sets of classes/properties at once.

14:52:31 [Daveb-scr]

em: q - how do the namespace docs and TR space intersect?

14:52:45 [Daveb-scr]

ideally, would be in sync

14:52:54 [Daveb-scr]

and mimetypes are what we say

14:53:13 [Daveb-scr]

stylesheets for human views of it, still with machine content

14:53:13 [bwm]

q?

14:53:22 [Daveb-scr]

no zakim, it died

14:53:37 [danbri]

eek

14:53:40 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #rdfcore

14:53:57 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: step 1 is to have the 2 documents ready

14:54:12 [em]

zakim, who is here?

14:54:12 [Zakim]

sorry, em, I don't know what conference this is

14:54:13 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Zakim, JosD, gk, RRSAgent, danbri, Daveb-scr, bwm, em, logger

14:54:15 [Daveb-scr]

danbri: it's taking the rdf schema appendix doc apart and checking it

14:54:18 [em]

zakim, this is RDF

14:54:18 [Zakim]

ok, em

14:54:49 [Daveb-scr]

ACTION bwm: help danbri split the rdf schema appendix into the 2 new namespace URIs rdf schema documents

14:55:05 [danbri]

help needed reviewing pfps-11 response, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Aug/0014.html

14:55:20 [Daveb-scr]

ACTIOn jang: review pfps-11 response in aug/0014

14:55:28 [em]

(i thought we, er maybe I, did this... this -- design rdf schemas for m&s and vocab)

14:55:39 [Daveb-scr]

above action "by monday"

14:56:37 [Daveb-scr]

group concurred with danbri change to rdfs:member comment

14:56:39 [Daveb-scr]

item 13 schema

14:56:40 [Daveb-scr]

no path

14:56:40 [Daveb-scr]

item 14

14:57:00 [Daveb-scr]

NO item test cases

14:57:20 [Daveb-scr]

jang: on arjon bagid, not a problem, will reply

14:57:40 [Daveb-scr]

jang: on dave/hp, only one significant on rdf-seq-rep, sitll applies

14:57:53 [Daveb-scr]

s/NO/item 15/ # oops

14:58:21 [Daveb-scr]

ACTION jang: respond to daveR on comments to testcases

14:58:31 [Daveb-scr]

... on zip, will rebuild

14:59:08 [Daveb-scr]

jang: the things are in the axiomatic triples

14:59:28 [Daveb-scr]

s/things/seq container membership/

14:59:34 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: a mistake?

14:59:41 [Daveb-scr]

josd: yes, they are present

14:59:54 [danbri]

OK, rdfs:member definition updated.

15:00:03 [Daveb-scr]

shame to have test cases that fwd reasoners will fail on

15:00:36 [Daveb-scr]

jang: fwd reasoners will have to look at entailments they are testing as well as the input graph. It is possivle to vuld these without infinent set of triples being generated

15:01:22 [Daveb-scr]

josd: we can avoid some of these probles

15:01:27 [Daveb-scr]

josd: error on facets

15:03:22 [Daveb-scr]

josd: most implemetnations treat " 3 " as a valid XSD int, not invalid (which is what XSD specs say)

15:03:41 [Daveb-scr]

ACTION bwm put the invalid xsd int on jjc's todo list

15:04:46 [Daveb-scr]

josd: negative entailment tests aren't so useful,since not finding them isn't conclusive

15:04:55 [Daveb-scr]

positive entailemtn are, and in good shape

15:05:13 [Daveb-scr]

item AOB implementation report

15:05:34 [em]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/

15:05:54 [danbri]

(did the meeting get extended officially yet? are we going to half-past?)

15:06:49 [Daveb-scr]

em: waiting from c# impl

15:06:53 [Daveb-scr]

(Drive)

15:06:56 [Daveb-scr]

jos: we have one

15:07:30 [em]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/tools

15:07:41 [danbri]

...eulersharp. I can confirm I've had this running under dotgnu (w/ help from mdupont)

15:07:51 [Daveb-scr]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030331-advance.html

15:07:59 [Daveb-scr]

em: daveb, josd please get back to me

15:08:06 [em]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/reports

15:08:36 [Daveb-scr]

http://sourceforge.net/projects/eulersharp

15:08:45 [Daveb-scr]

^- josd c# app

15:09:11 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: not just langs, coverage

15:09:23 [Daveb-scr]

... need to demostrate interop

15:09:28 [Daveb-scr]

of everything

15:09:30 [Daveb-scr]

how about schema?

15:09:59 [Daveb-scr]

em: in temrs of entailment?

15:10:31 [Daveb-scr]

jang: 2 ays - inference engine, or an imperative API that can ask questions involving rdfs-entailemntn

15:10:54 [Daveb-scr]

danbri: also graphical editors and users of the vocabulary

15:11:12 [Daveb-scr]

eM identifying criteria for success

15:11:51 [Daveb-scr]

our test cases are for design, not for conformance

15:12:15 [Daveb-scr]

(for e.g. TAP does rdfs)

15:12:26 [gk]

q+ to note that IETF criteria is 2 interoperable implementations of each normative feature

15:12:45 [gk]

q-

15:12:50 [Daveb-scr]

[gk: how would you measure a normative feature?]

15:13:23 [gk]

[Dave, that's fuzzy, but often it is described using RFC2119 language]

15:13:49 [Daveb-scr]

josd: euler currently fails 5 tests

15:14:06 [Daveb-scr]

3store 2.2.8 "Now produces all RDF entailments except RDFS10

15:14:06 [Daveb-scr]

(ContatinerMembershipProperty)"

15:14:33 [Daveb-scr]

[scribe: I assume that means RDF, RDFS]

15:15:07 [Daveb-scr]

josd: some failures are the xsd " 5 " being valid

15:15:26 [Daveb-scr]

josd: Jena2/DaveR also gets this, same libraries underneath report this as OK

15:15:55 [Daveb-scr]

[scribe: note action to bwm for jjc includes to look at xmlsch-02]

15:17:58 [danbri]

surnia

15:18:00 [Daveb-scr]

em: expecting a report from cwm and from sandro - surnia (sp?)

15:18:51 [Zakim]

+PatH

15:19:18 [Daveb-scr]

bwm, back to item 14 semantics

15:19:30 [Daveb-scr]

Path: fixed bug re rdfs inconsistency

15:20:04 [Daveb-scr]

... it seems to cover it, as far as I can tell

15:20:24 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: your mionor tweak tot he value space seems appropriate

15:21:35 [Daveb-scr]

(/me just noticed the Conformance section for syntax drafted last week isn't there, will need to get an ack on that)

15:22:44 [Daveb-scr]

path: " 2 "^^xsd:int is a literla, just whether it denotes a (??)semantic value

15:23:39 [Daveb-scr]

PatH: the emptyg raph does not entail _:1 rdf:type rdf:Property

15:23:42 [Daveb-scr]

but rdf-entail, yes

15:23:58 [Daveb-scr]

(rdf:_1) above

15:24:31 [Daveb-scr]

josd: and for containermembership properties? somewher you say these are axiomatic

15:25:11 [Daveb-scr]

PatH: will check. yes, because the defn of rdf-entail true in all interp 'cos it include simple entailment too

15:25:47 [Zakim]

-PatH

15:25:56 [Daveb-scr]

back to item 16 impl report

15:26:18 [Daveb-scr]

q+ conformance of syntax

15:26:28 [Daveb-scr]

q+ to something on conformance of syntax

15:27:07 [JosD]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/rqim.html

15:28:02 [Daveb-scr]

[* finish resolving dependency on RDF Core specs, esp. RDF Semantics]

15:30:08 [danbri]

q+ to note that http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema is both updated and now served as application/rdf+xml

15:30:59 [bwm]

ack daveB

15:30:59 [Zakim]

Daveb-scr, you wanted to something on conformance of syntax

15:32:38 [Daveb-scr]

ack Daveb-scr

15:33:29 [bwm]

ack danbri

15:33:29 [Zakim]

danbri, you wanted to note that http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema is both updated and now served as application/rdf+xml

15:34:34 [Daveb-scr]

em: want help with impl report

15:34:41 [Daveb-scr]

Daveb-scr: how much do you pay?

15:35:04 [Daveb-scr]

bwm: docs ready next week? feasible?

15:35:14 [gk]

Is jeremy back next week?

15:37:56 [Daveb-scr]

PR/CR proposal next week

15:38:02 [Daveb-scr]

prepare to vote next week

15:38:12 [Daveb-scr]

end of meeting

15:38:14 [Daveb-scr]

---

15:38:55 [Zakim]

-FrankM

15:38:56 [Zakim]

-GrahamKlyne

15:38:57 [Zakim]

-JosD

15:39:01 [Zakim]

-Danbri

15:39:04 [Zakim]

-Mike_Dean

15:39:14 [em]

zakim, who is here?

15:39:14 [Zakim]

On the phone I see bwm, EMiller, ILRT

15:39:15 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Zakim, JosD, gk, RRSAgent, danbri, Daveb-scr, bwm, em, logger

15:39:39 [em]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/tools

15:39:44 [em]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/EO/usecases/reports

15:40:07 [gk]

[Thinking about Concepts todo for j: look for responses on rdf-comments, XML literals, is all I can think of]

15:41:07 [Daveb-scr]

daveb: missing particular is 3store

15:44:04 [Daveb-scr]

collecting pointers to (reports => announcements) - 3store, sesame, off my htop of my head

15:47:05 [Daveb-scr]

2 impls of every (thing, test case)

15:47:42 [Daveb-scr]

contact groups on semantics side

15:47:54 [Daveb-scr]

point at impl requests, get to run testa, make announcements on archived lists

15:48:00 [Daveb-scr]

draft of conformance for rdf/xml

15:48:13 [Daveb-scr]

is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0250.html

15:49:36 [Daveb-scr]

also should check http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/07/30/practicalRDF.html

15:52:48 [Zakim]

-ILRT

15:52:49 [Zakim]

-EMiller

15:52:50 [Zakim]

-bwm

15:52:52 [Zakim]

SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has ended

15:53:48 [em]

rragent, please leave

15:53:52 [em]

rrsagent, please leave

15:53:52 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items:

15:53:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: daveb to sync with aaron with mime type and make sure the docs are consitent - use same mac type [1]

15:53:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/01-rdfcore-irc#T14-43-51

15:53:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: bwm to help danbri split the rdf schema appendix into the 2 new namespace URIs rdf schema documents [2]

15:53:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/01-rdfcore-irc#T14-54-49

15:53:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jang to respond to daveR on comments to testcases [3]

15:53:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/08/01-rdfcore-irc#T14-58-21