IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-07-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:02:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:14 [wendy]
zakim, list conferences
14:02:14 [Zakim]
I see SW_()9:00AM, DI_DIWG()10:00AM, Team_W3M()8:00AM, WS_ArchWG(wsd f2f)9:00AM, WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM active
14:02:16 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time is WS_ArchWG(f2f)9:00AM
14:02:27 [wendy]
zakim, this is WAI_WCAG
14:02:27 [Zakim]
ok, wendy
14:03:02 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
14:03:53 [ben]
ben has joined #wai-wcag
14:03:55 [Zakim]
+Wendy
14:06:00 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:06:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P13, Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Wendy
14:06:14 [wendy]
zakim, ??P13 is Ben
14:06:14 [Zakim]
+Ben; got it
14:07:49 [ChrisR]
ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
14:08:51 [wendy]
gateway techniques
14:08:55 [wendy]
way to include checklist items?
14:11:58 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-GATEWAY-20030723.html
14:20:38 [wendy]
week of 8 sept in toronto for tech task force f2f?
14:23:24 [wendy]
action: wac check with people possibilities for toronto tech tas force f2f on 8 sept (roberto, loretta - since have been active in wednesday calls)
14:23:28 [wendy]
===
14:24:25 [wendy]
HTML techs, lists
14:24:32 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#lists-techs
14:30:12 [wendy]
propose 2 techniques for lists: 1. how to use lists appropriately 2. issues w/older ATs not supporting documents. then in conformance profile then you can state which levels of tech you are supporting.
14:30:47 [wendy]
we can't not talk about issues of older techs yet if a core technique to write cues into lists, then creating unreasonable technique.
14:32:35 [wendy]
currently, only 2 techniques. 1 says use numbered lists, but requires use of css.
14:33:55 [wendy]
don't say anything about bullet lists, except how to change bullets w/css
14:34:02 [wendy]
type attribute deprecated in html.
14:34:24 [wendy]
an html wg issue since people want to use it. can't use a, b, c lists.
14:35:20 [wendy]
devs have asked html wg to put it back
14:36:05 [wendy]
1. proposal for unordered lists
14:36:30 [wendy]
2. ordered list needs work, exapmles that don't rely on css
14:36:57 [wendy]
3. proposal for supporting older ATs who don't handle nested lists well
14:37:43 [wendy]
however, techniques to use to make it obvious are more gateway techniques b/c not html specific, requires changes to writing style or css
14:39:11 [wendy]
gateway? apply to other technologies? pdf?
14:40:01 [wendy]
action: wac proposals for list techniques
14:40:32 [wendy]
4. proposal for how to use definition lists (as well as how not to use it)
14:41:05 [wendy]
directory list and menu list are deprecated? say don't use?
14:41:25 [wendy]
used to see dir as an indentation hack.
14:41:35 [wendy]
covered by use tech according to spec
14:41:58 [wendy]
a technique for "use a validator?"
14:42:32 [wendy]
technique should be, "the content validates" determining how it validates is up to the user.
14:45:25 [wendy]
types of techniques: required, best practice, additional ideas?
14:45:54 [wendy]
(i.e., if they map back to success criteria)
14:46:04 [wendy]
a few months ago said best practices don't have techniques.
14:46:53 [wendy]
could say, "required success criteria *must* have an associated technique, best practice success criteria *may* have an associated technique"
14:47:27 [wendy]
using "best practice" ala recent developments or how they used to be?
14:47:31 [wendy]
bit of both
14:48:26 [wendy]
===
14:48:27 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#tables
14:48:28 [wendy]
tables
14:49:11 [wendy]
state of current proposals?
14:49:19 [wendy]
accepted on the list
14:49:31 [wendy]
controversial left out of the list.
14:49:56 [wendy]
details: can be a caption, but no details about what can be in it?
14:50:19 [wendy]
left summary out of hte proposals
14:51:58 [wendy]
kynn said, if make summary mandatory feed back to html group (like alt on images).
14:52:33 [wendy]
action: chris continue proposals on tables (contents of caption and summary)
14:53:16 [wendy]
summary mandatory? seems diff than making alt mandatory.
14:55:11 [wendy]
way to say what kind of table it is? layout never can have th? still a mechanism to allow for (th in layout)?
14:55:23 [wendy]
way could do that is class or title that says, "this is layout"
14:55:28 [wendy]
advantage of th in layout?
14:56:05 [wendy]
misuse of structural element can confuse users.
14:56:33 [wendy]
have semantic meaning of being a heading
14:56:59 [wendy]
th should only be used if identifying a heading of some sort that is labeling a row or column of data.
14:57:11 [wendy]
if heading isn't doing that, then use a regular hn element
14:57:47 [wendy]
do we allow people to bend the rule (no th in layout table)?
14:57:59 [wendy]
there are many reasons for it. don't think people should bend it.
15:00:00 [wendy]
in checklists, if there aren't techniques to support what you want to do, there is a mechanism to say "i've satisfied this checkpoint by doing the following..." and hopefully we'll get a new technique to review.
15:07:51 [wendy]
therefore, talking about a more general issue: how bendable are these rules?
15:08:07 [wendy]
can we say something more general or need to handle on a case-by-case basis?
15:08:32 [wendy]
lean towards case-by-case because depends on technology support.
15:09:14 [wendy]
tangent: absolute/relative units of measure
15:12:25 [wendy]
guidelines are getting better, i.e., using absolute under some conditions (updating techniques w/conditions for use) and also have a way out that allows dev to say "i've satisfied this in this way..."
15:12:31 [wendy]
don't worry about case of th in layout tables.
15:13:32 [wendy]
caption: must not be used in layout tables and may/should be used in data tables
15:15:49 [wendy]
action: wac clean-up table section, incorporate chris' proposals
15:17:40 [wendy]
wcag 1.0 says "either provide linear or make sure table linearizes" propose change to "make sure tables linearizes"
15:18:04 [wendy]
ben found that reading order success criterion got left out by mistake. related to this issue.
15:20:08 [wendy]
like lists, a technique that says provide a linear reading order (like w3c site, button to linearize)
15:21:05 [wendy]
issue when strip table markup and page not readable - like data tables
15:21:21 [wendy]
not a recommended technique, but a "legacy technique"
15:22:28 [wendy]
2nd technique for older screen readers that read across columns?
15:27:01 [wendy]
2 techniques: 1. reading order (take care to make sure reading order is logical) 2. legacy technique for producing alternative linear version
15:27:17 [wendy]
action wac: add 2 new table techniques as part of above "table" action item
15:28:01 [wendy]
===
15:28:09 [wendy]
next week: start w/table layout
15:28:18 [wendy]
3 hour call
15:28:41 [wendy]
also gateway techniques
15:29:17 [wendy]
decided last week to do 3 hour calls on 6 and 20. also want to do 3 hours on 13 and 27?
15:30:04 [wendy]
yes. let's keep up the progress
15:30:25 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
15:30:28 [Zakim]
-Ben
15:30:29 [Zakim]
-Chris_Ridpath
15:30:32 [Zakim]
-Wendy
15:30:33 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:30:35 [wendy]
zakim, bey
15:30:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'bey', wendy
15:30:38 [wendy]
zakim, bye
15:30:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
15:31:03 [wendy]
RRSAgent, actions?
15:31:03 [wendy]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'actions'
15:31:13 [wendy]
RRSAgent, action items?
15:31:13 [wendy]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'action items'
15:31:18 [wendy]
actions?
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
sees 5 open action items:
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac check with people possibilities for toronto tech tas force f2f on 8 sept (roberto, loretta - since have been active in wednesday calls) [1]
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-23-24
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac proposals for list techniques [2]
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-40-01
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris continue proposals on tables (contents of caption and summary) [3]
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-52-33
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac clean-up table section, incorporate chris' proposals [4]
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-15-49
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac to add 2 new table techniques as part of above "table" action item [5]
15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-17
16:03:39 [jeff]
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16:03:42 [jeff]
hello.
16:06:29 [ChrisR]
ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
16:11:18 [jeff]
zakim, who is here?
16:32:01 [wendy]
RRSAgent, stop logging