IRC log of rdfcore on 2003-07-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:21 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfcore

14:00:32 [em-log]

em-log has changed the topic to: rdf core jul 25 teleconference

14:00:36 [em-log]

zakim, this is RDF

14:00:36 [Zakim]

ok, em-log

14:00:41 [em-log]

zakim, who is here?

14:00:41 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P16

14:00:42 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, em-log, danbri, DaveB, jang, bwm, logger

14:00:47 [gk-scribe]

gk-scribe has joined #rdfcore

14:00:51 [em-log]

zakim, dial emiller-bos

14:00:51 [Zakim]

ok, em-log; the call is being made

14:00:52 [Zakim]

+Emiller

14:00:53 [bwm]

Zakim, ??p16 is bwm

14:00:53 [Zakim]

+bwm; got it

14:01:18 [DaveB]

hey, new zakim announcement

14:01:25 [Zakim]

+GrahamKlyne

14:01:29 [Zakim]

+??P18

14:01:43 [DaveB]

Zakim, ??p18 is ILRT

14:01:43 [Zakim]

+ILRT; got it

14:01:48 [DaveB]

Zakim, ??p18 is DaveB

14:01:48 [Zakim]

sorry, DaveB, I do not recognize a party named '??p18'

14:01:56 [DaveB]

Zakim, sort it out

14:01:56 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'sort it out', DaveB

14:02:15 [jang]

zakim, ilrt has daveb

14:02:16 [Zakim]

+daveb; got it

14:02:49 [Zakim]

+FrankM

14:02:54 [bwm]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:02:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see bwm, Emiller, GrahamKlyne, ILRT, FrankM

14:02:55 [Zakim]

ILRT has daveb

14:03:31 [Zakim]

+Mike_Dean

14:05:12 [Zakim]

+DanBri

14:05:40 [danbri]

hmm....

14:06:02 [em]

zakim, disconnect danbri

14:06:02 [Zakim]

DanBri is being disconnected

14:06:02 [mdean]

mdean has joined #rdfcore

14:06:03 [Zakim]

-DanBri

14:06:46 [em]

danbri please try again?

14:06:56 [Zakim]

+??P22

14:07:09 [em]

zakim, ??P22 is danbri

14:07:09 [Zakim]

+danbri; got it

14:07:39 [danbri]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:07:40 [Zakim]

On the phone I see bwm, Emiller, GrahamKlyne, ILRT, FrankM, Mike_Dean, danbri

14:07:41 [Zakim]

ILRT has daveb

14:08:21 [danbri]

danbri has changed the topic to: rdf core jul 25 teleconferencehttp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0314.html

14:08:27 [danbri]

danbri has changed the topic to: rdf core jul 25 teleconference http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0314.html

14:08:38 [danbri]

rollcall

14:08:51 [danbri]

no Jeremy, but sent anti-regrets.

14:08:54 [danbri]

regrest from JanG.

14:08:55 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:08:57 [danbri]

Agenda Review

14:09:15 [DaveB]

q+ scribe next week? I'll do it

14:09:15 [danbri]

gk wanted to describe mime type registration

14:09:37 [danbri]

em, can you do the agenda management in zakim? i forget rules

14:09:45 [danbri]

scribe next week: dave beckett

14:09:57 [danbri]

pat hayes: possible regrets for next week

14:10:11 [danbri]

(discussion about date; its the friday)

14:10:17 [danbri]

minutes of last telecon

14:10:20 [danbri]

approved.

14:10:34 [danbri]

6. Relationship between xsd:string and plain literals

14:10:35 [danbri]

========

14:10:45 [danbri]

bwm: we had made a decision to be agnostic

14:10:48 [em]

agenda + mime type discussions (from GK)

14:10:56 [danbri]

pat: would be better to make a real decision

14:11:08 [danbri]

bwm: see mail traffic on this, some stuff overnight, incl from Paul Biron

14:11:37 [danbri]

bwm: my reading ' value space of xsd:string is a sub space of ...

14:11:39 [danbri]

(didn't capture)

14:11:47 [danbri]

bwm: corner cases w/ control characters

14:12:10 [danbri]

...also in schema processing, there is an equiv relation, xsd:equals (or xsd:identical) which compares pairs of type and value

14:12:19 [danbri]

pat: i see... oh... god... can we ignore that for now?

14:12:33 [danbri]

gk-scribe: paul's comment makes case that this is specific to xml schema processing

14:13:23 [danbri]

(discussion of unicode/escaping etc)

14:13:48 [danbri]

DaveB: xml itself deals in unicode code points, and some aren't allowed

14:14:14 [Zakim]

+??P25

14:14:31 [em]

zakim, ??P25 is jjc

14:14:31 [Zakim]

+jjc; got it

14:14:32 [bwm]

Zakim, ??p25 is jjc

14:14:32 [Zakim]

sorry, bwm, I do not recognize a party named '??p25'

14:15:05 [jjc]

jjc has joined #rdfcore

14:15:19 [danbri]

bwm: some characters / unicode code pts are not allowed in xml... q is 'are they allowed in plain literals'

14:15:28 [danbri]

jjc: if we have to decide, i'd say yes

14:15:39 [danbri]

bwm: no current restrictions anywhere

14:15:50 [danbri]

jjc: syntax restricts us to within xml 1.0

14:16:02 [danbri]

...but thats re serializations, not the actual graph

14:16:05 [danbri]

...which is different

14:16:22 [danbri]

jjc: xml 1.1 has different restrictions to 1.0

14:16:29 [danbri]

...makes sense to be agnostic

14:16:32 [danbri]

danbri: i support that

14:16:47 [danbri]

pat: we define plain literals ourselves

14:17:01 [danbri]

...it behoovs us to explain relation to xsd:string

14:17:04 [danbri]

DaveB: not our job

14:17:26 [danbri]

danbri: we just say what they are, its apparent to world how they relate to other things

14:17:40 [danbri]

bwm: <an example i didn't capture>

14:18:18 [danbri]

a plain literal 'a' is same thing as an xsd:string 'a'

14:18:44 [danbri]

jjc: re control chars, who knows... they may be permitted in rdf graphs, we don't care whether allowed in xsd strings

14:18:51 [danbri]

bwm: would that satisfy you pat?

14:19:15 [gk-scribe]

q+ to say I think *any* character can be in an RDF literal, and that XMNL allows this to be encoded using character entities.

14:19:15 [danbri]

p: not really. cos i need a rule...

14:20:21 [JosD]

JosD has joined #rdfcore

14:21:15 [danbri-scribe]

...certain value in being uniform

14:21:19 [danbri-scribe]

gk: worrying too much

14:21:25 [danbri-scribe]

...we can encode anything into a literal

14:21:45 [danbri-scribe]

...xml 1.0 spec has ref to chars which can appear in the original xml document which may represent markup or character data

14:21:52 [Zakim]

+??P26

14:22:01 [danbri-scribe]

...the production for an entity value is list of chars exxcept % & '

14:22:08 [JosD]

Zakim, ??P26 is JosD

14:22:08 [Zakim]

+JosD; got it

14:23:10 [danbri-scribe]

(discussion of paul's concern)

14:23:23 [danbri-scribe]

pat: if somone puts one of these code pts in an rdf plain literal

14:23:31 [danbri-scribe]

...would it be xml-encoded in the resulting rdf/xml?

14:23:40 [danbri-scribe]

(various: yes)

14:24:26 [danbri-scribe]

brian: can i suggest we decide the simple case...

14:24:29 [jjc]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#sec4.1

14:24:34 [danbri-scribe]

...ie that plain literal 'a' is same as xsd:string 'a'

14:24:43 [danbri-scribe]

...and action someone to investigate unusual code points

14:24:45 [danbri-scribe]

gk: good plan

14:24:47 [danbri-scribe]

pat: yup

14:24:49 [DaveB]

for me, http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#NT-CharRef says any code point in Unicode 10646

14:24:49 [jjc]

(XML 1.1 stuff about control characters)

14:25:02 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: anyone willing to pick up that action

14:25:06 [danbri-scribe]

pat: I could...

14:25:14 [danbri-scribe]

gk: me too... i think i've just found all the relevant bits

14:25:25 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: action on graham w/ input from pat?

14:25:39 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: search should also look at xml 1.1 spec

14:25:41 [danbri-scribe]

gk: ok

14:26:16 [danbri-scribe]

ACTION: on graham, research and report on inclusion of non-standard XML chars in RDF plain literals

14:26:33 [danbri-scribe]

RESOLVED: plain literal 'a' is the same thing as xsd:string 'a'

14:26:59 [danbri-scribe]

7.qu-03

14:27:00 [danbri-scribe]

====

14:27:16 [danbri-scribe]

brian: tidying up some remaining LC issues

14:27:27 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: do we need any discussion?

14:27:41 [danbri-scribe]

pat proposes; gk seconds...

14:28:09 [bwm]

propose resolve qu-03

14:28:09 [bwm]

per:

14:28:09 [bwm]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0018.html

14:28:09 [bwm]

with the addition of stating that we have created a postponed issue for

14:28:09 [bwm]

consideration by a future WG.

14:28:10 [danbri-scribe]

proposal to resolve qu-03 per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0018.html

14:29:05 [danbri-scribe]

RESOLVED: close qu-03 per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0018.html + postponed issue for a future WG

14:29:26 [danbri-scribe]

ACTION: pathayes respond re qu-03 closure

14:29:38 [danbri-scribe]

8. Status of outstanding comments:

14:29:39 [danbri-scribe]

=======================

14:29:49 [danbri-scribe]

Frank... primer: two pending

14:30:03 [danbri-scribe]

f: wwaiting to move doc to shadow tr space

14:30:25 [danbri-scribe]

....they're waiting to see actual text

14:30:33 [danbri-scribe]

em: i'm doing that now

14:30:54 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: you'll ping those?

14:30:57 [danbri-scribe]

f: yup

14:31:01 [danbri-scribe]

concepts...

14:31:05 [danbri-scribe]

22 and 23...

14:31:15 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: also social meaning pending

14:31:23 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: ...as he wanted to see whole doc before signing off

14:31:56 [danbri-scribe]

re 14... gk to chase next week

14:32:03 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: where are we re 22, 23?

14:32:22 [danbri-scribe]

gk: some confusion about who should be doing followups. me then jjc ... then gk again...

14:32:40 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: was some discussion about changes to text

14:32:43 [danbri-scribe]

gk: those been done

14:32:53 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: i was action'd to make some changes...

14:33:00 [danbri-scribe]

(uris, namespaces, resserved vocab)

14:33:05 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: changes from last week are now in

14:33:19 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: since jjc off on holiday soon, can gk chase this?

14:33:21 [danbri-scribe]

syntax

14:33:23 [danbri-scribe]

done :)

14:33:26 [danbri-scribe]

Thanks Dave!

14:33:39 [danbri-scribe]

DaveB: I was actioned to put an SVG section in.

14:34:02 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: i tried sending my action-backlog list out, mail went amis, will resend.

14:34:11 [danbri-scribe]

gk: dave, i have some comments on syntax

14:35:19 [danbri-scribe]

Schema:

14:35:24 [danbri-scribe]

no prog since last week (sick)

14:36:19 [danbri-scribe]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/#schema

14:39:16 [danbri-scribe]

ACTION: danbri to get pfps-11 and pfps-12 done for monday

14:39:24 [danbri-scribe]

Semantics...

14:39:31 [em]

frank (you on IRC)? - take a look at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/TR/WD-rdf-primer-20030117/

14:39:37 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: currently showing 4 not accepted

14:39:46 [danbri-scribe]

...peter nitpicking on some from this week

14:39:59 [danbri-scribe]

...we just resolved one concern of his (re string literals)

14:40:18 [danbri-scribe]

p:...re lbase literals, have greatly simplified this

14:40:51 [danbri-scribe]

p: lbase isn't able to handly 'string exotica' (charsets etc); and isn't intended for machine processing

14:41:12 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: have we completed the dance and need to record whether or not he's happy, or need to go aroudn again, patch specs etc.

14:41:17 [danbri-scribe]

... i should have it done later today

14:41:23 [danbri-scribe]

...who can say if it'll satisfy

14:41:48 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: peter may never go for the lbase translation...

14:41:53 [danbri-scribe]

...but may need to accept it

14:42:43 [danbri-scribe]

...

14:42:50 [danbri-scribe]

pfps 07... typed literals w/ langtags

14:43:00 [danbri-scribe]

...we've changed things since we sent him our (then) resolution

14:43:06 [danbri-scribe]

scrbe missed some detail

14:43:43 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: also discussion of whether change list part of doc

14:44:29 [danbri-scribe]

DaveB: i spent some time reviewing Semantics

14:44:38 [danbri-scribe]

...to my satisfaction changes are substantial editorial

14:45:49 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: suggestion to consult Dave Reynolds re whether Semantics has changed much, from implementor perspective

14:46:04 [danbri-scribe]

JosD: I had to change one line to disable xml literal unifying

14:46:12 [danbri-scribe]

...already did the plain literal / xsd string matching

14:46:15 [danbri-scribe]

...changes are minimal

14:46:20 [danbri-scribe]

...at least in our case

14:46:30 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: re Semantics doc...

14:46:35 [danbri-scribe]

...how close are we to getting this done?

14:46:39 [danbri-scribe]

p: good question!

14:46:45 [danbri-scribe]

...some edit suggestions in dave's email

14:46:50 [danbri-scribe]

...will try to do today

14:46:53 [danbri-scribe]

...borken links etc

14:49:40 [danbri-scribe]

Test cases: Done.

14:49:59 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: peter's review of semantics...

14:50:09 [danbri-scribe]

...relationship between properties and resources, concern seemed legit.

14:50:14 [danbri-scribe]

pat: i made that change, fixed

14:50:22 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: do i need to look again at xml literal text?

14:50:39 [danbri-scribe]

pat: yes, any help there good, esp definite answers so can avoid evasive agnostic answers

14:51:01 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: currently there is an answer. xml literals denote sequence of octets

14:51:16 [danbri-scribe]

...martin from i18n makes it clear that they're different

14:51:53 [danbri-scribe]

9. Implementation Report

14:52:18 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: do editors think we can have finalised docs for next fri?

14:52:23 [danbri-scribe]

pat: think so

14:52:30 [danbri-scribe]

danbri-scribe: aim to, depends on interaction w/ peter

14:52:39 [danbri-scribe]

brian: tests, syntax done

14:53:05 [danbri-scribe]

pat: should final version include a change list

14:53:37 [danbri-scribe]

danbri-scribe: for public, very useful to have list of changes

14:53:52 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: PR and REC differ usually just in terms of change list being omitted

14:53:55 [em]

q+

14:54:10 [danbri-scribe]

pat: so I should do a less wordy changelist aimed at public not in-crowd?

14:54:15 [bwm]

ack gk

14:54:15 [Zakim]

gk-scribe, you wanted to say I think *any* character can be in an RDF literal, and that XMNL allows this to be encoded using character entities.

14:54:28 [danbri-scribe]

em: to respond to pat... If that would put at risk doc completion, not needed.

14:54:30 [danbri-scribe]

pat: nope

14:54:37 [danbri-scribe]

em: priority is doc, 2ndarily change list

14:54:48 [danbri-scribe]

pat: one recent run-in w/ peter was w.r.t. changelist

14:55:02 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: can it go as an appendix please?

14:55:08 [danbri-scribe]

p: sure

14:56:04 [danbri-scribe]

(discussion of which copy of Primer em/frank working with)

14:56:06 [danbri-scribe]

21 july file

14:57:06 [danbri-scribe]

em: re xml literal text, can ppl hang on after call to discuss

14:58:01 [danbri-scribe]

ACTION: brian to link to editors draft copy of primer (shadow TR space) from homepage

14:58:08 [danbri-scribe]

f: major changes are in red

14:58:29 [danbri-scribe]

9. Implementation Report

14:58:31 [danbri-scribe]

===============

14:58:43 [danbri-scribe]

I sent a request to wg list... please run your code against tests

14:59:12 [danbri-scribe]

danbri-scribe: just for parser tests?

14:59:43 [danbri-scribe]

jjc/em: no, daver, jos also testing closures

15:00:30 [danbri-scribe]

ACTION: danbri fwd ericm's msg to www-rdf-interest/logic seeking implementor reports

15:00:46 [DaveB]

IIRC, also passing all tests are Drive (C#), rdflib (python), sesame's (java)

15:00:59 [danbri-scribe]

sesame's too?

15:01:01 [danbri-scribe]

cool

15:01:12 [danbri-scribe]

bk: goal here is evidence to go to PR, not a marketing exercise

15:01:14 [danbri-scribe]

em: ack'd

15:01:18 [danbri-scribe]

AOB

15:01:19 [danbri-scribe]

===

15:01:23 [danbri-scribe]

MIME Type

15:01:28 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: you sent comments to list

15:01:30 [danbri-scribe]

(url?)

15:01:38 [danbri-scribe]

...anyone reviewed?

15:01:42 [danbri-scribe]

DaveB: seems ok

15:01:50 [danbri-scribe]

...re charset, do we mandate or leave to xml?

15:01:51 [gk]

My message:

15:01:52 [gk]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0315.html

15:01:59 [danbri-scribe]

gk: I don't have an opinion

15:02:51 [danbri-scribe]

gk: Aaron's msg went to types at iana.org...

15:02:58 [danbri-scribe]

...has been posted for review

15:04:03 [danbri-scribe]

bwm: sounds like we need another iteration

15:04:13 [danbri-scribe]

DaveB: posting w/ social section is a big problem...

15:04:23 [danbri-scribe]

...we decided to drop it, but aaron has left it in

15:04:28 [danbri-scribe]

gk: should we make a formal decision

15:04:47 [danbri-scribe]

that ...section 4 of mimetype registration doc (social content) be deleted

15:04:56 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: is it ours, or Aaron's as Aaron?

15:05:02 [danbri-scribe]

gk: somewhat grey area

15:05:08 [danbri-scribe]

...was originally published with WG consent

15:05:16 [danbri-scribe]

...he tried to have it published as draft w3c

15:05:38 [danbri-scribe]

...this was rejected by Interest Draft editor, hence done now as from Aaron

15:05:47 [danbri-scribe]

...intent was to be a WG comment

15:05:58 [danbri-scribe]

jjc: why don't we send msg to aaron copying rdf-comnets list

15:06:55 [danbri-scribe]

brian: ok to have ppl mail aaron + list, no need for formal resolution right now

15:07:39 [danbri-scribe]

...keep it informal for now

15:09:44 [em]

RRSAgent, actions?

15:09:44 [em]

I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'actions'

15:09:57 [danbri-scribe]

Adjourned.

15:10:03 [danbri-scribe]

After hours discussion continues...

15:10:08 [danbri-scribe]

rrsagent, thank you

15:10:08 [danbri-scribe]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'thank you', danbri-scribe. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:10:14 [Zakim]

-JosD

15:10:19 [Zakim]

-jjc

15:10:19 [Zakim]

-PatH

15:10:21 [Zakim]

-bwm

15:10:22 [Zakim]

-Mike_Dean

15:10:30 [em]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:10:30 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Emiller, GrahamKlyne, ILRT, FrankM, danbri

15:10:31 [Zakim]

ILRT has daveb

15:10:45 [danbri-scribe]

rrsagent, excuse us

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items:

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: on graham, research and report on inclusion of non-standard XML chars in RDF plain literals [1]

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/25-rdfcore-irc#T14-26-16

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: pathayes respond re qu-03 closure [2]

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/25-rdfcore-irc#T14-29-26

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: danbri to get pfps-11 and pfps-12 done for monday [3]

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/25-rdfcore-irc#T14-39-16

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: brian to link to editors draft copy of primer (shadow TR space) from homepage [4]

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/25-rdfcore-irc#T14-58-01

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: danbri fwd ericm's msg to www-rdf-interest/logic seeking implementor reports [5]

15:10:45 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/25-rdfcore-irc#T15-00-30