IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-07-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:24:47 [RRSAgent]
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20:25:38 [Zakim]
20:25:57 [andi]
wendy, I'm talking but you don't seem to be hearing me. Am I muted?
20:26:10 [bengt]
zakim, who are here
20:26:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who are here', bengt
20:26:14 [bengt]
zakim, who are here ?
20:26:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, bengt.
20:26:20 [bengt]
zakim, who is here ?
20:26:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Ellero (muted), Michael_Cooper, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Kerstin_Goldsmith (muted), Francesco (muted), Matt_May, Ben_Caldwell, JasonWhite, Andi_Snow-Weaver,
20:26:22 [andi]
I answered your questioin
20:26:24 [Zakim]
... Bengt_Farre
20:26:25 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, ff, andi, ben, Zakim, rellero, silvia_chiossone, bengt, wendy
20:26:26 [Zakim]
20:27:34 [andi]
dropping off and re-dialing
20:27:36 [Zakim]
20:27:59 [wendy]
zakim, who's talking?
20:28:03 [Zakim]
20:28:09 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_Caldwell (5%), Bengt_Farre (39%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (4%), Wendy (54%), JasonWhite (4%)
20:28:26 [wendy]
zakim, ??P22 is Andi_Snow-Weaver
20:28:26 [Zakim]
+Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
20:28:39 [wendy]
"navigating using the keyboard" then link has to be visible on the page.
20:28:41 [bengt]
zakim, who's talking
20:28:41 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's talking', bengt
20:28:45 [bengt]
zakim, who's talking ?
20:28:52 [wendy]
this is extended checkpoint so less concern about it.
20:28:55 [Zakim]
bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Kerstin_Goldsmith (15%), Ben_Caldwell (45%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (34%), JasonWhite (14%)
20:29:02 [wendy]
"reading with a synthesizer" an issue with
20:31:31 [ff]
zakim, who's talking ?
20:31:42 [Zakim]
ff, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_Caldwell (29%), Andi_Snow-Weaver (4%), Wendy (14%)
20:32:13 [wendy]
7 seems like an arbitrary number.
20:33:53 [wendy]
html doesn't have the semantics that other languages do for gropuing things. this seems like an html-specific issue and something that user agents should handle.
20:34:31 [wendy]
perhaps remove or move to an additional note or rewritten to be dependent on markup language (doesn't apply if can provide the structure)
20:34:41 [wendy]
is it an html technique?
20:35:29 [ff]
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20:35:53 [ff]
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20:37:07 [wendy]
what happened to success criterion about reading order?
20:37:34 [wendy]
1.3 doesn't seem to apply to reading order, it talks about relationships but not necessarily reading order.
20:37:59 [wendy]
action: ben research what happened to "reading order" criterion
20:38:44 [wendy]
delete or change?
20:38:58 [wendy]
the issue it is tryign to address is efficiency for getting through content w/a keyboard.
20:39:04 [wendy]
but what require from the author?
20:39:15 [wendy]
provide the logical structure and UA provide the navigation
20:39:28 [wendy]
if the UA doesn't provide, then the author can provide explicit links to provide it.
20:42:50 [wendy]
propose: move it to additional note for now. see how development of techniques sheds light on it. perhaps delete it in the future if handled by techniques.
20:42:52 [wendy]
20:43:44 [wendy]
tab order - very keyboard-specific.
20:45:19 [wendy]
some concern about the additional note as well. instead of tab order "logical navigation order" with some explanation. if related to reading order, should it be in additional note or required success criteria.
20:46:12 [wendy]
is "logical nav order" testable?
20:50:24 [wendy]
action: jw propose success criteria for navigation order. proposal should discuss why there is the need to move it from additional note up and how to make it testable (or the issues w/testability). current additional note: where possible, logical tab order has been created
20:50:58 [Zakim]
20:54:22 [wendy]
50,000 words, 500 pages. why those numbers?
20:54:29 [wendy]
1,000 could be considered large.
20:54:33 [wendy]
not sure where those #s came from.
20:56:53 [wendy]
if using a handheld device, "large" is different than if using a desktop computer.
21:01:10 [wendy]
do we need the preface? can we break this into 3 criteria: provide table of contents - is testable.
21:01:42 [wendy]
1.3 should say put structure in, this (2.4) is extended and doesn't need to apply all the time.
21:02:19 [wendy]
"spirit of the checkpoint is... a rule of thumb is docs greater than X or more than Y pages"
21:07:40 [ff]
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21:08:38 [wendy]
action: andi and jason proposal to handle the 50K issue
21:08:39 [wendy]
21:08:43 [wendy]
21:08:49 [wendy]
21:09:00 [wendy]
delete: (For a list of common examples of exceptions for different languages, see the W3C-WAI foreign word exception examples listing at [@@ insert URL].
21:09:18 [wendy]
who decides what is "standard unabridged dictionaries?"
21:09:31 [wendy]
concern about this being core - that great a benefit?
21:10:45 [wendy]
issue with applying this to all sites? too much burden?
21:11:23 [wendy]
primarily for mix-language documents.
21:12:03 [wendy]
why is it difficult to implement?
21:12:15 [wendy]
also dealing with different character sets that require extra markup?
21:12:31 [wendy]
not nessarily difficult but a lot of work.
21:12:42 [wendy]
depends on the tool they are using?
21:12:58 [ff]
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21:13:01 [wendy]
how does this apply to product brand names that are not translated?
21:13:41 [wendy]
what if you have a phrase that you don't consider "foreign" b/c so widely used.
21:14:15 [wendy]
is the note trying to make it easier or not a problem for screen readers?
21:15:07 [fff]
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21:15:41 [wendy]
instead of the list, include examples in techniques.
21:16:26 [wendy]
issues w/3.1:
21:16:38 [wendy]
1. "unabridged dictionary" - is that a good test?
21:16:54 [wendy]
want to know if all languages have the concept.
21:17:02 [wendy]
2. issue with it being core
21:18:22 [wendy]
accessibility benefit and cost feel out of whack.
21:18:25 [ff]
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21:19:04 [wendy]
how well do tools flip back and forth between languages?
21:20:49 [wendy]
some languages aren't defined in a language to start with. the languages on the web are more robust. is there another way to talk about a lexical or ... some way to leave it open for additional languages.
21:21:12 [ff]
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21:21:40 [wendy]
how does this apply to math or source code fragments included?
21:22:58 [wendy]
phonetics won't help a braille translator.
21:23:14 [wendy]
other related issues: what about SSML and the like that can give guidance about how to pronounce something?
21:23:42 [wendy]
part of the spirit of this is that if programmaticaly determine the language know how to pronounce it, but there are also other ways to do that so perhaps this is one technique.
21:28:30 [ff]
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21:29:44 [wendy]
action: avi talk w/developers at VOA about how they are handling changes in language
21:30:17 [rellero]
21:30:18 [Zakim]
21:30:19 [Zakim]
21:30:21 [ff]
21:30:21 [Zakim]
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21:30:23 [Zakim]
21:30:23 [Zakim]
21:30:24 [Zakim]
21:30:24 [Zakim]
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21:30:27 [Zakim]
21:30:36 [ff]
thanks Wendy for the subtitles
21:30:45 [wendy]
:) your welcome
21:30:45 [Zakim]
21:30:46 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:30:53 [silvia_chiossone]
thanks wendy!
21:30:55 [wendy]
21:31:04 [ff]
they are very usefull for us non english speakers
21:31:15 [ff]
(sort of disabled people) :-)
21:31:22 [ff]
21:31:30 [rellero]
21:31:32 [silvia_chiossone]
21:31:39 [ff]
21:32:15 [silvia_chiossone]
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21:35:39 [bengt]
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22:15:08 [andi]
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23:50:44 [Zakim]
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