IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-07-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:17:24 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:18:23 [wendy]: action: chris write up checks related to title
15:18:30 [wendy]: action: chris write proposed techniques for tables
15:18:47 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-HTMLTECH-20030711.html#language-tech
15:18:59 [wendy]: NOT ASSIGNED ednote: "need clarification"
15:20:50 [r12a]: zakim, unmute ishida
15:20:50 [Zakim]: Ishida should no longer be muted
15:21:11 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-HTMLTECH-20030711.html#lang
15:22:12 [wendy]: like detail, but need to clarify. is the person reading braille making these changes by hand?
15:22:28 [wendy]: move speech bullet first, as the more general case to help frame the issue.
15:23:36 [wendy]: perhaps enough to mention case of braille and that w/out it is disorienting..rather than getting into specifics (of characters rendered in contraction or not)
15:23:43 [wendy]: only talking about lang attribute?
15:23:47 [wendy]: also include xhtml?
15:24:11 [wendy]: xml:lang vs html:lang
15:24:21 [wendy]: example changes, need to lower case the names
15:25:12 [wendy]: action: michael change html code to lower case
15:25:24 [wendy]: if using html 4.01 use lang if xhtml use both
15:26:13 [wendy]: role on example so that text generated will say "Example (HTML 4.01)" or "Example (XHTML 1.1)"
15:26:38 [wendy]: (on example element). or use technology element (finish design of that?)
15:27:15 [wendy]: action: wendy look at technology element or using role on example to denote which technology is used, then update xslt
15:27:55 [wendy]: ===
15:27:57 [wendy]: 2nd ednote
15:28:20 [wendy]: a way to handle forward-thinking techniques?
15:28:33 [wendy]: e.g., authors might not have to do now but tool developers might think about.
15:28:54 [wendy]: in this case, future is a bonus.
15:29:00 [wendy]: no reason to separate out
15:29:43 [wendy]: "The use of the lang tag can benefit future developements in technology, for example user who are...
15:30:54 [wendy]: action: wac edit 3rd bullet per richard's suggestion
15:32:49 [wendy]: speech synthesizers that "speak" multiple languages will be able to generate the text in the appropriate s/speak/support s/generate/speak
15:33:07 [wendy]: action: wac make the edit: speech synthesizers that "speak" multiple languages will be able to generate the text in the appropriate s/speak/support s/generate/speak
15:33:38 [wendy]: action: richard send us links to put in the resource list related to use of lang in xhtml and html
15:34:11 [wendy]: action: wac clean up ednotes related to edits that are making
15:35:42 [wendy]: rfc 3066 is current (for language codes), but html refers to older one.
15:36:29 [wendy]: action: richard propose suggestion for how to refer to language codes (i.e., rfc3066 since waiting on html spec erratum)
15:36:57 [wendy]: ===
15:36:58 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-HTMLTECH-20030711.html#natural_lang
15:37:07 [wendy]: should primary language come before changes in language?
15:43:04 [r12a]: here is some interim reading about language value rfcs: http://www.w3.org/International/O-HTML-tags.html
15:43:17 [ben]: public-comments-wcag20@w3.org
15:43:42 [wendy]: action: richard send language comment to public-comments-wcag20@w3.org
15:44:20 [wendy]: ===
15:44:21 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-HTMLTECH-20030711.html#text
15:45:09 [Zakim]: -Dave_MacDonald
15:50:48 [Zakim]: +Dave_MacDonald
15:51:37 [wendy]: catching up the log w/links given before logging began:
15:51:38 [wendy]: [10:18] <wendy> links to braillenet criteria: http://www.accessiweb.org/en/processus.php
15:51:38 [wendy]: [10:18] <wendy> 98 criteria: http://www.accessiweb.org/en/BN_cri98_en.rtf
15:53:33 [wendy]: inline rather than phrase level
15:53:48 [wendy]: benefits of inline markup?
15:54:35 [wendy]: checkpoint 1.3 - where it asks for this technique
15:55:01 [wendy]: talks about headings, paragraphs, lists, .... "any emphasis"
15:55:48 [wendy]: this also has abbr and acronym, a separate checkpoint
15:56:15 [wendy]: ideas for reorg: more flat. some things are misgrouped, i.e. "metadata" talks about refresh and redirect which is a diff section.
15:58:06 [wendy]: action: michael propose reorg of html techniques (some things are misgrouped, i.e. "metadata" talks about refresh and redirect which is a diff section.)
16:00:48 [wendy]: action: wac rewrite paragraph that starts, "The proper HTML elements..."
16:01:28 [wendy]: talk about where b and i have been deprecated.
16:01:36 [wendy]: too closely tied to visual presentation
16:02:33 [wendy]: th in this section? or headers? positive use of headings as well as the don'ts. part of michael's reorg?
16:03:10 [wendy]: put in both places since some people only look in one section (i.e., only tables)
16:03:29 [wendy]: heading for emphasis worse than using i or b for emphasis
16:05:53 [wendy]: one technique w/many examples or multiple techniques?
16:06:09 [wendy]: preference for more granular approach?
16:06:36 [wendy]: in this example, agree (i.e., multiple techniques for em/i and heading)
16:07:11 [wendy]: however, go so far as "heading has XYZ number of characters" (for eval tools) that's too granular.
16:07:46 [wendy]: ===
16:08:21 [wendy]: FAQ - difference between abbreviation and acronym.
16:08:31 [wendy]: difference in support? acronym read but abbr not?
16:08:46 [wendy]: two techniques: one for acronym one for abbreviation
16:08:58 [wendy]: then define each in own technique
16:09:01 [wendy]: checklist items for each
16:09:16 [wendy]: combined historically b/c similar and not widely enough supported.
16:11:56 [wendy]: xhtml 2 is combining the two and only using abbreviation since acronym is a type of abbreviation.
16:12:07 [wendy]: thus, should we recommend use of abbreviation instead of acronym?
16:12:12 [wendy]: what is UA support?
16:12:41 [wendy]: more support for acronym over abbreviation
16:12:53 [wendy]: if separate into 2 techniques, could deprecate one in the future.
16:13:40 [wendy]: action: michael break acronym and abbreviation into 2 separate techniques.
16:14:57 [wendy]: ===
16:14:57 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-HTMLTECH-20030711.html#blockquote
16:15:10 [wendy]: two similar elements (Q and blockquote)
16:16:26 [wendy]: split into 2 separate techniques, although only checklist items for blockquote
16:16:55 [wendy]: changes in natural language example uses the Q element.
16:17:37 [wendy]: action: wac change natural language example. don't use Q, use " and span
16:19:26 [wendy]: "Take care when using Q..."
16:19:43 [wendy]: or "There is not checklist item for this one. Not widely supported..."
16:19:56 [wendy]: have some flag so that it doesn't show up in the checklist (when generated)
16:20:38 [wendy]: want code examples for things that don't work?
16:21:19 [wendy]: recommending against Q b/c not well supported or not a good element?
16:21:28 [wendy]: from i18n, shame it is not supported.
16:21:39 [wendy]: then, have technique and push for support.
16:22:52 [wendy]: author looks for "how do i markup quotations" then uses Q and doesn't work. undermines credibility.
16:23:02 [wendy]: a section for future techniques? or tagging techniques inline?
16:23:11 [wendy]: tagged as future, won't show up in checklist
16:24:31 [wendy]: action: wac and richard look at schema - how mark future techniques? role on technique?
16:24:44 [wendy]: somewhere explain why it is tagged as future
16:25:30 [wendy]: action: michael split Q and blockquote into separate techniques.
16:26:15 [r12a]: zakim, mute me
16:26:15 [Zakim]: sorry, r12a, I do not see a party named 'r12a'
16:30:07 [r12a]: zakim, mute ishida
16:30:07 [Zakim]: Ishida should now be muted
16:31:40 [wendy]: ===
16:31:40 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-HTMLTECH-20030711.html#markup_not_image
16:31:44 [r12a]: zakim, unmute ishida
16:31:44 [Zakim]: Ishida should no longer be muted
16:33:57 [wendy]: part of this move into gateway and point to mathml and svg, but need something in html techs for what to do today (since svg and mathml are partly "future techniques")
16:37:32 [wendy]: this partly falls into michael's action item for the reorg. part of it could be moved to gateway. need to talk with john gardner and raman about what to do today (good alt-text for images for math equations? link to mathml equivalent?)
16:37:44 [wendy]: also, using css to create buttons rather than images.
16:38:27 [wendy]: put something in images section about using markup instead of images. a link to CSS techniques?
16:38:35 [wendy]: drop into gateway for now, expand out later?
16:38:46 [r12a]: zakim, mute ishida
16:38:46 [Zakim]: Ishida should now be muted
16:39:28 [wendy]: action: wac talk with loretta about possibility of including "markup text instead of using images" in gateway. update ednote in html tech that says "possibly moving to gateway"
16:40:23 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-HTMLTECH-20030711.html#logical_struct_markup
16:40:23 [r12a]: zakim, unmute ishida
16:40:23 [Zakim]: Ishida should no longer be muted
16:40:31 [wendy]: future techniques?
16:40:40 [wendy]: ins and del are somewhat supported by Jaws.
16:43:03 [wendy]: noting that in case of ins and del, the technique is that not only use the element but include text "begin delete" and "end delete" (as did w/last WCAG 2.0 draft)
16:43:19 [wendy]: these are semantic elements. need to use w/css to produce desired effect.
16:43:33 [wendy]: supported by browser w/out css?
16:43:48 [wendy]: code, kbd, var rendered as monospace font (if css not supported)
16:44:38 [wendy]: checkpoint becomes: use these elements w/css
16:45:06 [wendy]: or additionally: use these elements w/css and text prompts indicating start and end of element.
16:47:11 [wendy]: if this is what you're trying to accomplish, here's how to do it.
16:47:41 [wendy]: perhaps have different types of examples: example, deprecated example, future example
16:48:33 [wendy]: action: ben test each of the additional structural elements (kbd, ins, del, etc.) in a variety of user agents and see what happens
16:48:51 [wendy]: divide each into their own technique?
16:48:56 [wendy]: partly depend on results of test?
16:49:04 [wendy]: if include them, need to tell people how to use them.
16:49:45 [wendy]: rule of thumb: each technique applied to a specific code thing.
16:49:53 [wendy]: w/present and future examples based on user agent testing
16:51:15 [wendy]: two types of techniques, do we need to go with one or the other: 1. if you are marking up deletions, ... 2. img elements have alt attributes
16:53:57 [wendy]: ===
16:54:01 [wendy]: wrap up
16:54:09 [wendy]: some of the work identified today:
16:54:11 [wendy]: 1. editorial
16:54:16 [wendy]: 2. related to reorg
16:54:31 [wendy]: 3. specific proposals
16:55:32 [wendy]: summary:
16:55:39 [wendy]: - trying to be as granular as possible
16:59:19 [wendy]: action: dave propose text for clarifications related to language usage (3 items - braille, why is primary lang a good practice)
16:59:56 [wendy]: action: dave text markup: expand intro to clarify about phrase level/inline markup not talking about document structure
17:00:39 [wendy]: timeline: try to get these action items done by next friday
17:01:05 [wendy]: 1 August
17:01:44 [wendy]: cross-references - michael will handle as part of reorganization
17:01:58 [wendy]: actions?
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: sees 20 open action items:
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: chris write up checks related to title [1]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-18-23
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: chris write proposed techniques for tables [2]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-18-30
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael change html code to lower case [3]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-25-12
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy look at technology element or using role on example to denote which technology is used, then update xslt [4]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-15
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wac edit 3rd bullet per richard's suggestion [5]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-30-54
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wac make the edit: speech synthesizers that "speak" multiple languages will be able to generate the text in the appropriate s/speak/support s/generate/speak [6]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-33-07
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: richard send us links to put in the resource list related to use of lang in xhtml and html [7]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-33-38
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wac clean up ednotes related to edits that are making [8]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-34-11
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: richard propose suggestion for how to refer to language codes (i.e., rfc3066 since waiting on html spec erratum) [9]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-36-29
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: richard send language comment to public-comments-wcag20@w3.org [10]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-43-42
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael propose reorg of html techniques (some things are misgrouped, i.e. "metadata" talks about refresh and redirect which is a diff section.) [11]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T15-58-06
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wac rewrite paragraph that starts, "The proper HTML elements..." [12]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T16-00-48
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael break acronym and abbreviation into 2 separate techniques. [13]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T16-13-40
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wac change natural language example. don't use Q, use " and span [14]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T16-17-37
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wac and richard look at schema - how mark future techniques? role on technique? [15]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T16-24-31
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: michael split Q and blockquote into separate techniques. [16]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T16-25-30
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wac talk with loretta about possibility of including "markup text instead of using images" in gateway. update ednote in html tech that says "possibly moving to gateway" [17]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T16-39-28
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ben test each of the additional structural elements (kbd, ins, del, etc.) in a variety of user agents and see what happens [18]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T16-48-33
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: dave propose text for clarifications related to language usage (3 items - braille, why is primary lang a good practice) [19]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T16-59-19
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: dave text markup: expand intro to clarify about phrase level/inline markup not talking about document structure [20]
17:01:58 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/23-wai-wcag-irc#T16-59-56
17:03:33 [wendy]: ==
17:04:04 [wendy]: next week: gateway techniques or keep going through html techniques
17:06:13 [wendy]: next extended call on 6 August.
17:06:27 [wendy]: at minimum also have another extended on the 20th
17:10:59 [wendy]: action: wac reserve bridge for extended time for all of august.
17:11:11 [wendy]: ottawa location for techniques task force mtg?
17:11:16 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
17:11:17 [Zakim]: -Ben_Caldwell
17:11:18 [Zakim]: -Dave_MacDonald
17:11:19 [Zakim]: -Chris_Ridpath
17:11:24 [Zakim]: -Wendy
17:11:24 [wendy]: madison also a possibility
17:11:48 [Zakim]: -Ishida
17:11:49 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
17:11:57 [wendy]: zakim, bye
17:11:57 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
17:12:09 [r12a]: r12a has left #wai-wcag