16:03:16 RRSAgent has joined #webont 16:03:25 Zakim, Tim_Finin is JeffHeflin 16:03:25 +JeffHeflin; got it 16:03:31 +??P18 16:03:42 zakim, ??p18 is jimH 16:03:42 +jimH; got it 16:04:11 DanC has changed the topic to: 3Jul http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ ; chair: JimH. scribe: jjcscribe 16:04:19 zakim,who is here? 16:04:26 +??P19 16:04:29 +??P22 16:04:43 agenda + 3Jul http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jul/0011.html 16:04:51 agenda -10 16:04:55 zakim, ??p19 is sean 16:04:55 +sean; got it 16:05:06 +DanC 16:05:07 seanb has joined #webont 16:05:11 zakim, who is here? 16:05:11 On the phone I see Sandro, Evan_Wallace, IanHorrocks, jjc, [EDS], JeffHeflin, jimH, sean, ??P22, DanC (muted) 16:05:14 On IRC I see seanb, RRSAgent, DanC, jjcscribe, Zakim, sandro, jimH, logger 16:05:28 +PFPS 16:05:35 zakim, [eds] is MikeS 16:05:35 +MikeS; got it 16:05:57 +??P25 16:06:05 not really... 16:06:19 mdean has joined #webont 16:06:31 +Deb_Mcguinness 16:06:47 GuusS has joined #webont 16:06:51 +Mike_Dean 16:07:14 +??P3 16:07:22 zakim, ??p3 is Guus 16:07:23 +Guus; got it 16:07:25 DeborahMc has joined #webont 16:07:41 Zakim, who's on the call? 16:07:41 On the phone I see Sandro, Evan_Wallace, IanHorrocks, jjc, MikeS, JeffHeflin, jimH, sean, MasahiroHori, DanC, PFPS, CharlesW, Deb_Mcguinness, Mike_Dean, Guus 16:07:47 Zakim, take up agendum 1 16:07:47 agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from jimH] 16:08:16 -sean 16:08:30 I 2nd proposal to meet 10Jul 16:08:52 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC 16:09:06 bad bot. 16:09:37 Minutes of previous meeting, proposed, accepted. 16:09:42 Zakim, who's talking? 16:09:52 jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (43%), MasahiroHori (14%) 16:10:06 Agenda amendment dave beckett issue added 16:10:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0364.html 16:10:45 http:://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0364.html 16:10:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0364.html 16:10:55 Mike dean's action continued 16:11:16 3. unspecified domain,range in App. C of OWL Language Reference 31 March 16:11:26 Re: privacy in OWL 16:11:31 +??P13 16:11:35 -jimH 16:11:37 ACTION: jimh conitnued 16:12:24 21. daml:item - to be done later 16:12:32 22. RDFCore Comments on OWL Reference 16:13:01 +Jim_Hendler 16:13:03 DanC: Frank's action continued til after 5.3 is closed 16:13:29 21. daml:item 16:14:06 ACTION: Jim Hendler. continued 16:14:13 25. Comments on Owl REF document 16:14:42 Charis agfree with continue franks action 16:14:52 25. actionis done 16:15:06 28. Non-global Keys - on telecon 16:15:18 both actions are done 16:15:26 32. Language Overview Document editorial comments 16:15:40 both actions done (32) 16:15:45 JosD has joined #webont 16:15:53 34. Could owl:sameAs reference non-OWL resources? 16:15:53 34. Could owl:sameAs reference non-OWL resources? 16:16:03 now closed - all actions done (34) 16:16:13 38. QA Review of owl-semantics - on agenda 16:16:27 +??P19 16:16:37 38 action jeff done, jeremy continued 16:16:50 +JosD (on record) 16:16:51 zakim, next agendum 16:16:51 agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from jimH] 16:16:53 zakim, next agendum 16:16:53 agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from jimH] 16:16:55 zakim, next agendum 16:16:55 agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from jimH] 16:17:00 zakim, close this agendum 16:17:00 agendum 1 closed 16:17:01 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:17:02 2. Action review [from jimH] 16:17:02 zakim, close this agendum 16:17:02 I do not know what agendum had been taken up, jjcscribe 16:17:06 zakim, close this agendum 16:17:06 I do not know what agendum had been taken up, jjcscribe 16:17:08 zakim, next agendum 16:17:08 agendum 2. "Action review" taken up [from jimH] 16:17:10 zakim, close this agendum 16:17:10 agendum 2 closed 16:17:11 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:17:12 3. owl:sameAs [from jimH] 16:17:13 zakim, next agendum 16:17:13 agendum 3. "owl:sameAs" taken up [from jimH] 16:17:51 Chairs propose that owl:sameAs is in OWL Lite. 16:19:19 many editors say that they have made this change 16:19:42 This is a clairiofication on the last weeks decision 16:20:20 ACTION jjc make sure test has owl:sameAs in Lite and no owl:sameIndividualAs 16:20:25 zakim, close this agendum 16:20:25 agendum 3 closed 16:20:26 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:20:27 4. Compound keys [from jimH] 16:21:01 http://www.morphon.com/xmleditor/index.shtml 16:21:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0366.html 16:21:25 (jims cut and paste is spuroous) 16:21:33 Jim talks from his message 16:21:43 keys paper msg: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0368.html 16:22:07 Jeremy, the message wrt owl:sameAs in Test is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0372.html 16:23:06 Dan and Jim agree friendly amendment to cite Keys for free paper 16:23:22 Agreed unanminously 16:23:32 ACTION MikeS to add new compoundkey issue 16:23:53 ACTION JimH To tell issue raiser about compound kets 16:24:19 zakim, close this agendum 16:24:19 I do not know what agendum had been taken up, jjcscribe 16:24:28 -JosD 16:24:29 zakim, next agendum 16:24:29 agendum 4. "Compound keys" taken up [from jimH] 16:24:33 zakim, close this agendum 16:24:33 agendum 4 closed 16:24:34 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:24:34 zakim, next agendum 16:24:34 5. response to QA [from jimH] 16:24:35 agendum 5. "response to QA" taken up [from jimH] 16:25:18 Proposed QA Reply (version 2) Sandro Hawke (Wed, Jul 02 2003) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jul/0018.html 16:25:20 +??P2 16:25:24 Sandro talks through his proposal 16:25:39 Zakim, ??P2 is JosD 16:25:39 +JosD; got it 16:25:44 Some of jeremy comments have been made personally so we have dropped them from this proposal 16:26:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0360.html contains the keys for free reference i sent out during the telecon last week. this is the same as ian resent later 16:26:54 Propose approve sandro to send this message to QA 16:26:59 carried unaminously 16:27:15 zakim, next agendum 16:27:15 agendum 5. "response to QA" taken up [from jimH] 16:27:20 zakim, close this agendum 16:27:20 agendum 5 closed 16:27:21 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:27:22 zakim, next agendum 16:27:22 6. test document [from jimH] 16:27:23 agendum 6. "test document" taken up [from jimH] 16:27:26 because sandro's msg says "the WG decided..." 16:28:47 ack danc 16:28:47 DanC, you wanted to ask that MikeS include horrocks's references in the issues list and to noodle about test reviews 16:29:15 Jeremy: we have no LC comments on test 16:29:30 Jeremy: we will expect one comment from RDF Core, but it will be "it is OK" 16:30:50 JimH at least seven or eight implementations have tried and succeeded to pass some of our tests 16:31:23 DanC: LC no news is good news 16:32:29 Test approvals Jim Hendler (Thu, Jul 03 2003) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jul/0042.html 16:32:51 9 tests there 16:32:58 Proposed by hendler, approved unamionously 16:34:28 draft cr/pr request http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/rqim.html 16:35:11 "the problem is that it's all in RDF..... :-))))" 16:36:15 Jeremy: looking atthe QA test guidelines, we could have a format for reporting test results 16:36:25 some discussion 16:36:42 agreed that it would be good 16:36:51 effort in this direction would be welcome 16:37:06 "it" being a webform for submitting test succes stories. 16:37:10 look at EARL 16:37:26 zakim, close this agendum 16:37:26 agendum 6 closed 16:37:27 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:37:28 7. levels issue [from jimH] 16:37:50 jim sent a proposal for If - Then 16:37:54 # Proposal to Close issue 5.3, Semantic Layering Jim Hendler (Thu, Jul 03 2003) # Proposal to Close issue 5.3, Semantic Layering Jim Hendler (Thu, Jul 03 2003) 16:38:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jul/0045.html 16:39:35 jermey cannot support this today 16:39:45 jjc: it might be the right solution 16:39:51 jos: I feel like jeremy 16:40:57 Dan reads proposal 16:41:36 pfps is happy with JimH's proposal 16:42:13 danc my colleagues are happy with JimH proposal 16:42:31 s/happy/at peace with/ 16:43:23 -CharlesW 16:43:30 +PatH 16:44:24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jul/0014.html 16:44:33 non-mon example on a certain reading of S&AS 16:46:53 . For such OWL ontologies the direct model theory is authoritative and the RDFS-compatible model theory is secondary 16:47:03 Jeremy quoting from S&AS. 16:47:10 JimH: it is not clear which semantics to use 16:47:16 DanC: you get to choose 16:47:31 "... secondary"... eek! 16:47:50 http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/#1 16:48:09 (quotation from) 16:48:25 jimh: syntax is hard 16:48:59 I'm interested in Pat's view on moving from iff to if 16:49:02 q+ 16:49:10 ack danc 16:49:10 DanC, you wanted to respond to URIs being "one thing" 16:51:20 Pat says its safe 16:51:25 to move iff to if 16:51:48 Pat: its not really a solution, but it side steps the problem 16:52:13 JimH the two technical points are unclear 16:52:27 DanC: 1) correspondence theorme 2) OWL Full semantics 16:55:05 jjc: how bad would it be to make owl:Thing infinite 16:55:08 Peter acknowledged that "... authoritative ... secondary ..." could be read in unfortunate ways 16:55:11 ian: it would be bad 16:56:32 Ian and Pat had already had this problem with common logic 16:56:44 ack 16:56:49 ack jjcscribe 16:57:13 jjc: OWL Full is infinite because of the lists, Path: yes 16:57:27 lists... and literals too 16:58:16 oh yes 16:58:53 jos: speaks in favour of dropping the owl;full conditions 16:59:49 q+ 17:00:03 peter: jos is asking for a big change 17:00:52 ian: add statement like "we believe this could be strengthened to iff for infinite domains" 17:02:50 jjc: ian's statement is false 17:03:09 consider annotations 17:03:21 ack danc 17:03:21 DanC, you wanted to ask that "Think is empty" go into the test suite as a DL inconsistency test 17:03:52 ack guus 17:03:55 ACTION jjc Add owl:Thing = owl:Nothing test 17:05:25 jjc: impact on test is substantial 17:06:34 a short 2nd last call for test isn't very interesting to me; might as well start CR 17:07:14 +1 w/DanC 17:08:39 +2 w/DanC 17:09:24 jimh can we give this a week> 17:09:31 jjc I am on holiday next week 17:09:46 path there won't be a magic fix in a week 17:10:55 noting that straw-polls are inexact, please proceed 17:11:07 straw poll on jims proposal 17:11:23 about 11 inf avour 17:11:44 for a straw poll, you can ask "who would prefer not to" 17:12:04 who cannot live with it 0 17:12:37 Jim proposes as in msg 0045 17:13:43 abstain: DeRoo, Carroll, Wallace, 17:13:49 motion carried 17:14:02 ACTION MikeSmith change closing text 17:15:01 ACTION PFPS editotial change on secondarry issuette 17:15:11 ACTION JJC update test document 17:16:38 ... 17:16:51 who took the action for Reference? 17:17:01 ACTION Guus: update reference per 0045 17:17:09 Zakim, close this agendum 17:17:09 I do not know what agendum had been taken up, DanC 17:17:15 jjc has joined #webont 17:17:15 Zakim, close agendum 5 17:17:15 agendum 5 closed 17:17:15 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:17:16 7. levels issue [from jimH] 17:17:19 Zakim, close agendum 7 17:17:19 agendum 7 closed 17:17:20 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:17:20 I am back 17:17:21 8. schedule/strawpoll on CR/pR [from jimH] 17:17:25 Zakim, next agendum 17:17:25 agendum 8. "schedule/strawpoll on CR/pR" taken up [from jimH] 17:18:47 jim introduces the online poll 17:18:50 the options 17:19:29 oops; perhaps I should have put RDF Core's changes to subClassOf on today's agenda 17:21:49 jjc: have the chairs seen more implementations than the group? 17:22:10 jimh: anything that would go in our PR request has been seen on the group. 17:22:23 danc: please do this. 17:26:08 danc talks about rdfs:subClassOf to intensional seamntics 17:26:34 pfps: danc should sent e-mail 17:26:38 ACTION DanC: send notice of RDF Core change to subClassOf 17:27:15 dave beckett response 17:27:38 jeff's student has looked at sean's document 17:27:52 sean's docuemnt is a good start 17:28:07 (is jeff claiming victory on his action?) 17:29:06 jeff reckons a week or twos work 17:29:17 danc a table would make it look like a specification 17:29:37 and would hence be deceptive 17:30:04 danc this will get implemented 17:30:46 jjc scepticism about the duration of the work 17:31:08 -PFPS 17:31:10 out of time - no official resolutions onwards 17:32:17 JimH/Guus suggests moving to one telecon every two weeks 17:34:04 danc not cost effective 17:35:07 danc: unless it is normative daveb will be unhappy 17:35:49 jeffh: I think he said he could live with an informative reverse mapping 17:38:22 jimh suggest writing up a justification 17:38:37 -Evan_Wallace 17:39:59 meeting adjourned 17:40:04 B1,B2 on 24th 17:40:06 -MasahiroHori 17:40:09 -Jim_Hendler 17:40:11 -MikeS 17:40:13 -jjc 17:40:14 seanb has left #webont 17:40:20 -JeffHeflin 17:40:21 -JosD 17:40:25 -IanHorrocks 17:40:26 -Mike_Dean 17:40:31 -Hori 17:40:43 -Deb_Mcguinness 17:41:04 -DanC 17:41:05 -PatH 17:41:12 -Guus 17:41:14 -Sandro 17:41:15 SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended 17:41:42 thanks for chairing Jeremy - DanC, can you be sure to ACL the irc 17:47:01 ok... 17:47:05 RRSAgent, pointer? 17:47:05 See http://www.w3.org/2003/07/03-webont-irc#T17-47-05 17:47:31 I wasn't chairing!! 17:47:33 03-webont-irc.html (from ACLs DB) 17:47:33 world access. 17:47:33 03-webont-irc.rdf (from ACLs DB) 17:47:33 world access. 17:47:33 03-webont-irc.txt (from ACLs DB) 17:47:34 world access. 17:47:47 yes that's good 20:00:14 Zakim has left #webont 22:53:24 DanC_ssh1 has left #webont