IRC log of webont on 2003-06-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:48:09 [RRSAgent]
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SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:59:33 [Zakim]
15:59:33 [Zakim]
15:59:40 [jhendler]
zakim, [umd] is jimH
15:59:40 [Zakim]
+jimH; got it
15:59:53 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
15:59:53 [RRSAgent]
16:00:19 [DanC]
agenda + 4 Jun
16:00:43 [jimH]
Next Meeting: 2003-06-05, Peter to scribe.
16:00:43 [jimH]
Followed By: 2003-06-12, Charles to scribe.
16:00:52 [jimH]
from previous minutes
16:01:01 [DanC]
so the "tbd" in the agenda is just an oversight?
16:01:05 [Zakim]
16:01:23 [jimH]
tbd is in the "next week" column - but was an oversite
16:01:36 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: 5Jun ; chair: JimH; scribe: PeterPS
16:02:02 [jimH]
zakim, Tayeb is Baget
16:02:02 [Zakim]
+Baget; got it
16:02:23 [Zakim]
16:02:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.312.063.aaaa
16:02:54 [Zakim]
16:03:07 [Zakim]
16:03:14 [jimH]
zakim, Tim_Finin is JeffHeflin
16:03:14 [Zakim]
+JeffHeflin; got it
16:03:29 [Zakim]
16:03:39 [jimH]
zakim, ??p34 is Jeremy
16:03:39 [Zakim]
+Jeremy; got it
16:03:44 [Zakim]
16:03:52 [Zakim]
16:04:00 [Zakim]
16:04:03 [jimH]
zakim, ??p35 is pfps
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+pfps; got it
16:04:11 [Zakim]
16:04:17 [jimH]
zakim, ??p41 is herman
16:04:17 [Zakim]
+herman; got it
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pfps has joined #webont
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FvH has joined #webont
16:04:29 [jimH]
zakim, [ibm] is welty
16:04:29 [Zakim]
+welty; got it
16:04:31 [Zakim]
16:04:36 [jimH]
zakim, who is here?
16:04:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, +1.312.063.aaaa, JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, [EDS], pfps, herman, welty
16:04:38 [Zakim]
On IRC I see FvH, pfps, sandro, jimH, baget, RRSAgent, Zakim, DanC, logger
16:04:41 [Zakim]
16:04:52 [jjc]
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16:04:56 [ChrisW]
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16:05:01 [jjc]
Zakim, who's talking?
16:05:12 [Zakim]
jjc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jimH (45%), Sandro (30%), DanC (45%), Evan_Wallace (10%), OPERATOR 19 (24%)
16:05:23 [pfps]
zakim, pfps is pfpsscribe
16:05:23 [Zakim]
+pfpsscribe; got it
16:05:39 [jimH]
zakim, [eds] mikeSmith
16:05:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[eds] mikeSmith', jimH
16:05:45 [jimH]
zakim, [eds] is mikeSmith
16:05:46 [Zakim]
+mikeSmith; got it
16:05:47 [Zakim]
16:06:06 [jimH]
zakim, who is here?
16:06:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, DanC, +1.312.063.aaaa (muted), JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, mikeSmith, pfpsscribe, herman, welty, SeanB
16:06:08 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisW, jjc, FvH, pfps, sandro, jimH, baget, RRSAgent, Zakim, DanC, logger
16:06:11 [Zakim]
16:06:26 [Zakim]
- +1.312.063.aaaa
16:06:28 [ChrisW]
zakim, ChrisW is Lord
16:06:28 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'ChrisW'
16:06:37 [seanb]
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16:07:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.312.063.aaaa
16:07:23 [ChrisW]
I'm still here
16:07:41 [pfps]
1.0 Admin
16:07:54 [pfps]
Attendance from above
16:08:00 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:08:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, DanC, FrankvH (muted), JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, mikeSmith, pfpsscribe, herman, welty, SeanB, TimF
16:08:31 [pfps]
Next telecon 12th, Guus chair, Charles White scribe
16:08:44 [pfps]
Minutes posted, accepted with one important change!
16:09:23 [guus]
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Announcement - test is in last call - congratulations to Jeremy and Jos
16:09:32 [Zakim]
16:10:08 [Zakim]
16:10:38 [mdean]
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16:10:55 [pfps]
Dan - it would be a good idea to include some ``simple'' tests - as points in the sand ?
16:11:43 [DanC]
e.g. from authoring tools, tests that just say "this is a consistent OWL Lite document"
16:11:51 [pfps]
Agenda addition - talk about proposed change to OWL semantics
16:11:57 [pfps]
2.0 Action review
16:12:57 [pfps]
JH implementation feedback DONE
16:13:16 [pfps]
JH and DC keys CONTINUED - should be done in a day or so!
16:13:39 [pfps]
DC publish XML syntax IN PROGRESS - expected to be done by 9 June
16:14:38 [JosD]
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16:15:51 [pfps]
MS and GS proposed changes to Guide and Reference CONTINUED - should be done in a day or so
16:17:05 [pfps]
MS update issue list 5.06 and 5.20 ASSIGNED to DC
16:17:48 [pfps]
Jos de Roo propose a test DONE
16:18:03 [pfps]
Dan Connolly amend agenda to discuss this test
16:18:28 [Zakim]
16:18:44 [pfps]
Guus propose a definition for class description DONE
16:19:10 [pfps]
Mike Smith to change Guide glossary DONE
16:19:54 [pfps]
Dan Connolly I18N review CONTINUE - expected sometime soon
16:20:10 [pfps]
Jeremy - test for unionOf CONTINUED - expected next week
16:20:31 [pfps]
Peter PS - change semantics for unionOf - DONE
16:20:45 [pfps]
Jeremy Carroll B1 B2 proof sketch - DONE
16:21:04 [pfps]
Peter PS - review proof sketch - CONTINUED - expected by 12 June
16:21:22 [DanC]
ACTION: Jeremy equivalentClass with 4 components and no
16:21:22 [DanC]
hamiltonian path
16:21:26 [pfps]
Jeremy - test for equivalentClass - CONTINUED -expected by 12 June
16:21:46 [pfps]
Peter PS - change to semantics - DONE
16:22:06 [pfps]
Jeremy Carroll - owlsas-rdfcore-bnodes- restrictions - CONTINUED - expected 12 June
16:22:24 [pfps]
Dan Connolly and Jeremy Carroll - review Sean's document
16:22:50 [pfps]
- CONTINUED - expected soon
16:23:19 [seanb]
Document is:
16:23:31 [pfps]
Pat Hayes - reply to May/0003 - comment prepared but not sent - CONTINUED, Pat may be waiting for approval
16:23:45 [pfps]
2.0 QA Review
16:23:47 [DanC]
Re: QA Review of owl-semantics
16:23:47 [DanC]
From: Dan Connolly (
16:23:47 [DanC]
Date: Thu, May 01 2003
16:25:33 [pfps]
DanC - part of W3C process is QA review, with a document saying what should be done
16:25:58 [pfps]
DanC - the QA review of our documents says that we should do certain things that don't look very palatable
16:26:18 [pfps]
DanC - volunteers for talking to QA wanted
16:27:40 [pfps]
some comments about eggs
16:27:57 [hth]
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16:28:22 [jjc]
16:28:25 [pfps]
DanC - one comment to be addressed is tagging sections as normative
16:34:13 [ChrisW]
Has there been a QA review of any other documents, or just AS&S?
16:34:17 [pfps]
DanC - Jeremy has a review of the QA guidelines
16:35:18 [Zakim]
16:35:41 [pfps]
ACTION - Sandro Hawke, Evan Statton - review Jeremy's response
16:36:26 [DanC]
I'm not sure ChrisW; good question. my reply to their review of S&AS pointed them at other documents.
16:36:39 [pfps]
Agenda - changes to OWL semantics
16:38:43 [pfps]
Peter PS - vague description of proposed change to OWL semantics
16:39:03 [pfps]
ACTION: Jeremy Carroll - review change
16:40:29 [pfps]
DanC - change is technical -
16:41:00 [pfps]
Jeremy Carroll - one test case can come from initial message
16:41:11 [pfps]
Peter PS - another test case is in the message I sent out
16:41:44 [DanC]
ACTION 2 = Jeremy Carroll - review change to S&AS semantics re annotation properties
16:42:16 [pfps]
Agenda - Sean's document
16:42:36 [pfps]
DanC - document was actually readable
16:42:48 [pfps]
DanC - does the doc cover all the bases?
16:44:25 [pfps]
JimH - request for such a document outstanding
16:45:10 [pfps]
DanC - nice document - could be tacked on to Reference or, preferably, Guide
16:45:28 [pfps]
Mike Smith - could be an appendix to Guide
16:46:56 [pfps]
JimH - what if there are other rules? perhaps by other authors?
16:47:14 [pfps]
DanC - we have to stop sometime
16:47:30 [pfps]
JimH - perhaps some other forum will continue
16:47:40 [pfps]
DanC - then that should be somewhere else
16:54:31 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to append it to reference; refer to to it from overview and guide
16:56:28 [pfps]
Proposal carries by consensus
16:57:04 [pfps]
ACTION: Guus - work with Sean to put appendix in Reference
16:57:16 [pfps]
ACITON: Mike Smith - write introduction paragraph for Guide
16:57:47 [pfps]
ACTION: Frank - similar for Overview
16:57:54 [DanC]
FYI, JimH is on the hook to get back to the commentor.
16:58:35 [pfps]
Agenda - rdfs:Class vs owl:Class
16:58:43 [pfps]
DanC - proposed test
16:58:53 [DanC]
16:58:53 [DanC]
rdfs:Class rdf:type _:x.
16:58:53 [DanC]
_:x owl:complementOf owl:Class.
16:58:53 [DanC]
as an otest:InconsistencyTest
16:59:00 [DanC]
]]] --
16:59:35 [pfps]
JimH - how can we describe this in a way that is understandable?
17:00:07 [jjc]
17:00:47 [pfps]
Jos - this can be proved inconsistent in OWL Full
17:05:02 [pfps]
PeterPS - the situation is different in OWL DL - but the question can't be asked in OWL DL
17:06:16 [pfps]
Jeremy - rdfs:subPropertyOf is different in RDF and OWL
17:06:50 [pfps]
PatH - this is different from owl:Class and rdfs:Class
17:08:21 [ChrisW]
17:08:26 [pfps]
PatH - rdfs:Class is not a member of rdfs:Class in OWL Full
17:09:13 [pfps]
DanC - rdfs:Class owl:sameAs owl:Class in OWL Full
17:09:47 [pfps]
Jeremy - rdfs:Class owl:equivalentTo owl:Class in OWL Full
17:10:06 [pfps]
Peter - rdfs:Class owl:sameAs owl:Class does not follow in OWL Full
17:11:39 [pfps]
PatH - motivation - OWL DL and OWL Full are different - in OWL DL owl:Thing is not the universe but it is on OWL Full
17:12:02 [sandro]
(How about owldl:Class)
17:12:11 [sandro]
(for what Pat wants)
17:12:13 [guus]
17:12:50 [jimH]
ack jjc
17:12:53 [jimH]
ack guus
17:13:00 [DanC]
ack danc
17:13:00 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to propose dropping owl:Class in favor of rdfs:Class, to see what breaks
17:13:36 [pfps]
Guus - in OWL Full the class extensions are the same
17:13:47 [DanC]
(I already found out what breaks; support from WG members)
17:14:06 [jjc]
17:14:26 [pfps]
JimH - what breaks if owl:Class is removed from the documents
17:14:50 [guus]
17:15:20 [pfps]
PatH - then OWL DL willl have theorems that are false in RDFS
17:16:59 [pfps]
JimH - given an RDFS document that uses rdfs:Class how can it be used as an OWL DL class
17:17:09 [pfps]
PatH - you have to do some non-trivial work
17:18:33 [jjc]
q+ to mention section 5.4 of S&AS
17:18:48 [DanC]
q+ MikeS
17:18:52 [DanC]
ack jjc
17:18:52 [Zakim]
jjc, you wanted to mention section 5.4 of S&AS
17:19:12 [pfps]
Jeremy - a lot of work has to be done in Section 5 of S&AS
17:19:36 [DanC]
ack guus
17:20:23 [pfps]
Guus - what about RDFS docs that don't fit into OWL DL
17:21:01 [DanC]
ack DanC
17:21:01 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask PatH if the owl:Class term is motivated by possible fixes to OWL in the future
17:21:24 [pfps]
Guus - we need owl:Class because of OWL DL
17:22:14 [pfps]
DanC - taking owl:Class out requires lots of work, including semantic layering, so no change
17:22:24 [pfps]
Mike Smith - agree
17:22:43 [DanC]
i.e. so no reopening semantic layering.
17:24:05 [JosD]
17:27:06 [jimH]
ack mikes
17:27:13 [jimH]
ack josd
17:27:13 [DanC]
ack josd
17:28:23 [DanC]
that would be more intuitive to me... to say that owl:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class
17:28:41 [pfps]
17:31:14 [ChrisW]
gotta go
17:31:17 [Zakim]
17:31:28 [pfps]
Peter PS - if owl:Class is not the same as rdfs:Class - then in OWL Full it does not follow that rdfs:Class belongs to the owl:intersectionOf [rdfs:Class]
17:31:45 [pfps]
ack pfps
17:31:50 [timfinin]
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17:32:05 [Zakim]
17:32:39 [pfps]
DanC - response should refer to layering - our design works - we don't have a design that works without an owl:Class
17:35:08 [jjc]
rdfs:class rdf:type [intersectionOf rdfs:Class]
17:38:28 [DanC]
jim, we're discussing the layering issue. this is bordering on out of order...
17:39:34 [pfps]
JimH - volunteer to write an e-mail to futher this disucssion without opening too much other stuff
17:40:18 [seanb]
17:40:25 [Zakim]
17:43:14 [DanC]
oops; my memory of the issues list is somewhat creative...
17:43:38 [pfps]
ACTION: Frank vH write draft response
17:43:50 [pfps]
ACTION: PatH write draft response (also for owl:Class)
17:44:19 [DanC]
consensus doesn't have a diagram; it just expresses the stuff in prose, I guess
17:44:20 [Zakim]
17:44:28 [jjc]
17:44:30 [Zakim]
17:44:37 [Zakim]
17:44:42 [pfps]
17:44:43 [Zakim]
17:44:46 [Zakim]
17:44:48 [Zakim]
17:44:52 [Zakim]
17:44:53 [Zakim]
17:44:57 [Zakim]
17:45:00 [Zakim]
17:46:51 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
17:46:52 [RRSAgent]
17:47:14 [DanC]
logger, pointer?
17:47:14 [logger]
17:49:56 [DanC]
17:49:56 [DanC]
requests the creation of test cases to clearly illustrate the differences
17:49:56 [DanC]
between owl:Class and rdfs:Class." --
17:52:04 [DanC]
OWL S&AS: Translation to RDF Graphs Becket 9 May
17:57:11 [DanC]
Consensus on semantic layering
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18:11:03 [Zakim]
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18:34:18 [Zakim]
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SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
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