15:48:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:53:40 <baget> baget has joined #webont
15:54:02 <baget> baget has joined #webont
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15:58:03 <sandro> sandro has joined #webont
15:59:26 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:59:33 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:59:33 <Zakim> +[UMD]
15:59:40 <jhendler> zakim, [umd] is jimH
15:59:40 <Zakim> +jimH; got it
15:59:53 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:59:53 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2003/06/05-webont-irc#T15-59-53
16:00:19 <DanC> agenda + 4 Jun http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0019.html
16:00:43 <jimH> Next Meeting: 2003-06-05, Peter to scribe.  
16:00:43 <jimH> Followed By:  2003-06-12, Charles to scribe.
16:00:52 <jimH> from previous minutes
16:01:01 <DanC> so the "tbd" in the agenda is just an oversight?
16:01:05 <Zakim> +Tayeb
16:01:23 <jimH> tbd is in the "next week" column - but was an oversite
16:01:36 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: 5Jun http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ ; chair: JimH; scribe: PeterPS
16:02:02 <jimH> zakim, Tayeb is Baget 
16:02:02 <Zakim> +Baget; got it
16:02:23 <Zakim> +DanC
16:02:50 <Zakim> + +1.312.063.aaaa
16:02:54 <Zakim> +Tim_Finin
16:03:07 <Zakim> +??P34
16:03:14 <jimH> zakim, Tim_Finin is JeffHeflin
16:03:14 <Zakim> +JeffHeflin; got it
16:03:29 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
16:03:39 <jimH> zakim, ??p34 is Jeremy
16:03:39 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
16:03:44 <Zakim> +[EDS]
16:03:52 <Zakim> +??P35
16:04:00 <Zakim> +??P41
16:04:03 <jimH> zakim, ??p35 is pfps
16:04:03 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
16:04:11 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:04:17 <jimH> zakim, ??p41 is herman
16:04:17 <Zakim> +herman; got it
16:04:19 <pfps> pfps has joined #webont
16:04:21 <FvH> FvH has joined #webont
16:04:29 <jimH> zakim, [ibm] is welty
16:04:29 <Zakim> +welty; got it
16:04:31 <Zakim> -DanC
16:04:36 <jimH> zakim, who is here?
16:04:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, +1.312.063.aaaa, JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, [EDS], pfps, herman, welty
16:04:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see FvH, pfps, sandro, jimH, baget, RRSAgent, Zakim, DanC, logger
16:04:41 <Zakim> +DanC
16:04:52 <jjc> jjc has joined #webont
16:04:56 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
16:05:01 <jjc> Zakim, who's talking?
16:05:12 <Zakim> jjc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jimH (45%), Sandro (30%), DanC (45%), Evan_Wallace (10%), OPERATOR 19 (24%)
16:05:23 <pfps> zakim, pfps is pfpsscribe
16:05:23 <Zakim> +pfpsscribe; got it
16:05:39 <jimH> zakim, [eds] mikeSmith
16:05:39 <Zakim> I don't understand '[eds] mikeSmith', jimH
16:05:45 <jimH> zakim, [eds] is mikeSmith
16:05:46 <Zakim> +mikeSmith; got it
16:05:47 <Zakim> +??P9
16:06:06 <jimH> zakim, who is here?
16:06:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, DanC, +1.312.063.aaaa (muted), JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, mikeSmith, pfpsscribe, herman, welty, SeanB
16:06:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisW, jjc, FvH, pfps, sandro, jimH, baget, RRSAgent, Zakim, DanC, logger
16:06:11 <Zakim> +??P16
16:06:26 <Zakim> - +1.312.063.aaaa
16:06:28 <ChrisW> zakim, ChrisW is Lord
16:06:28 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'ChrisW'
16:06:37 <seanb> seanb has joined #webont
16:06:52 <timfinin> timfinin has joined #webont
16:07:13 <Zakim> + +1.312.063.aaaa
16:07:23 <ChrisW> I'm still here
16:07:41 <pfps> 1.0 Admin 
16:07:54 <pfps> Attendance from above
16:08:00 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:08:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, DanC, FrankvH (muted), JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, mikeSmith, pfpsscribe, herman, welty, SeanB, TimF
16:08:31 <pfps> Next telecon 12th, Guus chair, Charles White scribe
16:08:44 <pfps> Minutes posted, accepted with one important change!
16:09:23 <guus> guus has joined #webont
16:09:25 <pfps> Announcement - test is in last call - congratulations to Jeremy and Jos
16:09:32 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:10:08 <Zakim> +??P48
16:10:38 <mdean> mdean has joined #webont
16:10:55 <pfps> Dan - it would be a good idea to include some ``simple'' tests - as points in the sand ?
16:11:43 <DanC> e.g. from authoring tools, tests that just say "this is a consistent OWL Lite document"
16:11:51 <pfps> Agenda addition - talk about proposed change to OWL semantics
16:11:57 <pfps> 2.0 Action review
16:12:57 <pfps> JH implementation feedback DONE
16:13:16 <pfps> JH and DC keys CONTINUED - should be done in a day or so!
16:13:39 <pfps> DC publish XML syntax IN PROGRESS - expected to be done by 9 June
16:14:38 <JosD> JosD has joined #webont
16:15:51 <pfps> MS and GS proposed changes to Guide and Reference CONTINUED - should be done in a day or so
16:17:05 <pfps> MS update issue list 5.06 and 5.20 ASSIGNED to DC
16:17:48 <pfps> Jos de Roo propose a test DONE
16:18:03 <pfps> Dan Connolly amend agenda to discuss this test
16:18:28 <Zakim> +??P26
16:18:44 <pfps> Guus propose a definition for class description DONE
16:19:10 <pfps> Mike Smith to change Guide glossary DONE
16:19:54 <pfps> Dan Connolly I18N review CONTINUE - expected sometime soon
16:20:10 <pfps> Jeremy - test for unionOf CONTINUED - expected next week
16:20:31 <pfps> Peter PS - change semantics  for unionOf - DONE
16:20:45 <pfps> Jeremy Carroll B1 B2 proof sketch - DONE
16:21:04 <pfps> Peter PS - review proof sketch - CONTINUED - expected by 12 June
16:21:22 <DanC> ACTION: Jeremy equivalentClass with 4 components and no 
16:21:22 <DanC> hamiltonian path
16:21:26 <pfps> Jeremy - test for equivalentClass - CONTINUED -expected by 12 June
16:21:46 <pfps> Peter PS - change to semantics - DONE
16:22:06 <pfps> Jeremy Carroll - owlsas-rdfcore-bnodes- restrictions - CONTINUED - expected 12 June
16:22:24 <pfps> Dan Connolly and Jeremy Carroll - review Sean's document 
16:22:50 <pfps> - CONTINUED - expected soon
16:23:19 <seanb> Document is: http://wonderweb.man.ac.uk/owl/rdf.shtml
16:23:31 <pfps> Pat Hayes - reply to May/0003 - comment prepared but not sent - CONTINUED, Pat may be waiting for approval
16:23:45 <pfps> 2.0 QA Review
16:23:47 <DanC> Re: QA Review of owl-semantics
16:23:47 <DanC> From: Dan Connolly (connolly@w3.org)
16:23:47 <DanC> Date: Thu, May 01 2003  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003May/0002.html
16:25:33 <pfps> DanC - part of W3C process is QA review,  with a document saying what should be done
16:25:58 <pfps> DanC - the QA review of our documents says that we should do certain things that don't look very palatable
16:26:18 <pfps> DanC - volunteers for talking to QA wanted
16:27:40 <pfps> some comments about eggs
16:27:57 <hth> hth has joined #webont
16:28:22 <jjc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0158.html
16:28:25 <pfps> DanC - one comment to be addressed is tagging sections as normative
16:34:13 <ChrisW> Has there been a QA review of any other documents, or just AS&S?
16:34:17 <pfps> DanC - Jeremy has a review of the QA guidelines
16:35:18 <Zakim> +PatH
16:35:41 <pfps> ACTION - Sandro Hawke, Evan Statton - review Jeremy's response
16:36:26 <DanC> I'm not sure ChrisW; good question. my reply to their review of S&AS pointed them at other documents.
16:36:39 <pfps> Agenda - changes to OWL semantics
16:38:43 <pfps> Peter PS - vague description of proposed change to OWL semantics
16:39:03 <pfps> ACTION: Jeremy Carroll - review change
16:40:29 <pfps> DanC - change is technical - 
16:41:00 <pfps> Jeremy Carroll - one test case can come from initial message
16:41:11 <pfps> Peter PS - another test case is in the message I sent out
16:41:44 <DanC> ACTION 2 = Jeremy Carroll - review change to S&AS semantics re annotation properties
16:42:16 <pfps> Agenda - Sean's document
16:42:36 <pfps> DanC - document was actually readable
16:42:48 <pfps> DanC - does the doc cover all the bases?
16:44:25 <pfps> JimH - request for such a document outstanding
16:45:10 <pfps> DanC - nice document - could be tacked on to Reference or, preferably, Guide
16:45:28 <pfps> Mike Smith - could be an appendix to Guide
16:46:56 <pfps> JimH - what if there are other rules?  perhaps by other authors?
16:47:14 <pfps> DanC - we have to stop sometime
16:47:30 <pfps> JimH - perhaps some other forum will continue
16:47:40 <pfps> DanC - then that should be somewhere else
16:54:31 <DanC> PROPOSED: to append it to reference; refer to to it from overview and guide
16:56:28 <pfps> Proposal carries by consensus
16:57:04 <pfps> ACTION: Guus - work with Sean to put appendix in Reference
16:57:16 <pfps> ACITON: Mike Smith - write introduction paragraph for Guide
16:57:47 <pfps> ACTION: Frank - similar for Overview 
16:57:54 <DanC> FYI, JimH is on the hook to get back to the commentor.
16:58:35 <pfps> Agenda - rdfs:Class vs owl:Class
16:58:43 <pfps> DanC - proposed test
16:58:53 <DanC> [[[
16:58:53 <DanC> rdfs:Class rdf:type _:x.
16:58:53 <DanC> _:x owl:complementOf owl:Class.
16:58:53 <DanC> as an otest:InconsistencyTest
16:59:00 <DanC> ]]] -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0031.html
16:59:35 <pfps> JimH - how can we describe this in a way that is understandable?
17:00:07 <jjc> q+
17:00:47 <pfps> Jos - this can be proved inconsistent in OWL Full
17:05:02 <pfps> PeterPS - the situation is different in OWL DL - but the question can't be asked in OWL DL
17:06:16 <pfps> Jeremy - rdfs:subPropertyOf is different in RDF and OWL
17:06:50 <pfps> PatH - this is different from owl:Class and rdfs:Class
17:08:21 <ChrisW> PAT!!!!
17:08:26 <pfps> PatH - rdfs:Class is not a member of rdfs:Class in OWL Full
17:09:13 <pfps> DanC - rdfs:Class owl:sameAs owl:Class in OWL Full
17:09:47 <pfps> Jeremy - rdfs:Class owl:equivalentTo owl:Class in OWL Full
17:10:06 <pfps> Peter - rdfs:Class owl:sameAs owl:Class does not follow in OWL Full
17:11:39 <pfps> PatH - motivation - OWL DL and OWL Full are different - in OWL DL owl:Thing is not the universe but it is on OWL Full
17:12:02 <sandro> (How about owldl:Class)
17:12:11 <sandro> (for what Pat wants)
17:12:13 <guus> q+
17:12:50 <jimH> ack jjc
17:12:53 <jimH> ack guus
17:13:00 <DanC> ack danc
17:13:00 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to propose dropping owl:Class in favor of rdfs:Class, to see what breaks
17:13:36 <pfps> Guus - in OWL Full the class extensions are the same
17:13:47 <DanC> (I already found out what breaks; support from WG members)
17:14:06 <jjc> q+
17:14:26 <pfps> JimH - what breaks if owl:Class is removed from the documents
17:14:50 <guus> q+
17:15:20 <pfps> PatH - then OWL DL willl have theorems that are false in RDFS
17:16:59 <pfps> JimH - given an RDFS document that uses rdfs:Class how can it be used as an OWL DL class
17:17:09 <pfps> PatH - you have to do some non-trivial work
17:18:33 <jjc> q+ to mention section 5.4 of S&AS
17:18:48 <DanC> q+ MikeS
17:18:52 <DanC> ack jjc
17:18:52 <Zakim> jjc, you wanted to mention section 5.4 of S&AS
17:19:12 <pfps> Jeremy - a lot of work has to be done in Section 5 of S&AS
17:19:36 <DanC> ack guus
17:20:23 <pfps> Guus - what about RDFS docs that don't fit into OWL DL
17:21:01 <DanC> ack DanC
17:21:01 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask PatH if the owl:Class term is motivated by possible fixes to OWL in the future
17:21:24 <pfps> Guus - we need owl:Class because of OWL DL
17:22:14 <pfps> DanC - taking owl:Class out requires lots of work, including semantic layering, so no change
17:22:24 <pfps> Mike Smith - agree
17:22:43 <DanC> i.e. so no reopening semantic layering.
17:24:05 <JosD> q+
17:27:06 <jimH> ack mikes
17:27:13 <jimH> ack josd
17:27:13 <DanC> ack josd
17:28:23 <DanC> that would be more intuitive to me... to say that owl:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class
17:28:41 <pfps> q+
17:31:14 <ChrisW> gotta go
17:31:17 <Zakim> -welty
17:31:28 <pfps> Peter PS - if owl:Class is not the same as rdfs:Class - then in OWL  Full it does not follow that rdfs:Class belongs to the owl:intersectionOf [rdfs:Class]
17:31:45 <pfps> ack pfps
17:31:50 <timfinin> bye
17:31:56 <timfinin> timfinin has left #webont
17:32:05 <Zakim> -TimF
17:32:39 <pfps> DanC - response should refer to layering - our design works - we don't have a design that works without an owl:Class
17:35:08 <jjc> rdfs:class rdf:type [intersectionOf rdfs:Class]
17:38:28 <DanC> jim, we're discussing the layering issue. this is bordering on out of order...
17:39:34 <pfps> JimH - volunteer to write an e-mail to futher this disucssion without opening too much other stuff
17:40:18 <seanb> bye
17:40:25 <Zakim> -SeanB
17:43:14 <DanC> oops; my memory of the issues list is somewhat creative...
17:43:38 <pfps> ACTION: Frank vH write draft response
17:43:50 <pfps> ACTION: PatH write draft response (also for owl:Class)
17:44:19 <DanC> consensus http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Oct/0022.html doesn't have a diagram; it just expresses the stuff in prose, I guess
17:44:20 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
17:44:28 <jjc> bye
17:44:30 <Zakim> -Jeremy
17:44:37 <Zakim> -mikeSmith
17:44:42 <pfps> ADJOURN
17:44:43 <Zakim> -FrankvH
17:44:46 <Zakim> -JeffHeflin
17:44:48 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:44:52 <Zakim> -herman
17:44:53 <Zakim> -Baget
17:44:57 <Zakim> -JosD
17:45:00 <Zakim> -Guus
17:46:51 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:46:52 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2003/06/05-webont-irc#T17-46-51
17:47:14 <DanC> logger, pointer?
17:47:14 <logger> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2003-06-05#T17-47-14
17:49:56 <DanC> "RDFCore 
17:49:56 <DanC> requests the creation of test cases to clearly illustrate the differences 
17:49:56 <DanC> between owl:Class and rdfs:Class." -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003May/0004.html
17:52:04 <DanC> OWL S&AS: Translation to RDF Graphs Becket 9 May http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003May/0059.html
17:57:11 <DanC> Consensus on semantic layering http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Oct/0022.html
18:11:02 <Zakim> -DanC
18:11:03 <Zakim> -jimH
18:11:05 <Zakim> -PatH
18:34:18 <Zakim> -pfpsscribe
18:36:31 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
18:36:32 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
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