15:08:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:08:35 <DanC> Zakim, this will be WEBO
15:08:36 <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see SW_WebOnt()12:00PM scheduled to start in 52 minutes
15:19:07 <DanC> agenda 1= 1May agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0006.html
15:31:52 <jhendler> jhendler has joined #webont
15:32:00 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/Guide/pubrules#namespaces
15:32:07 <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/1999/10/nsuri
15:59:49 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:59:58 <Zakim> +Ian_Horrocks
16:00:13 <IanH> IanH has joined #webont
16:00:31 <Zakim> -Ian_Horrocks
16:00:32 <Zakim> +DanC
16:01:10 <Zakim> +Ian_Horrocks
16:01:26 <mdean> mdean has joined #webont
16:02:00 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:02:21 <Zakim> +Tim_Finin
16:02:45 <DanC> Zakim, Tim_Finin is really JeffH
16:02:45 <Zakim> +JeffH; got it
16:02:47 <Zakim> +??P9
16:02:48 <Zakim> +[UMD]
16:02:51 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
16:03:03 <jhendler> zakim, [umd] is JimH
16:03:03 <Zakim> +JimH; got it
16:03:40 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, JeffH, ??P9, JimH, Evan_Wallace
16:03:47 <Zakim> -JeffH
16:04:33 <Zakim> +Tim_Finin
16:04:41 <Zakim> +??P14
16:04:46 <DanC> Zakim, Tim_Finin is really JeffH
16:04:46 <Zakim> +JeffH; got it
16:04:57 <DanC> Zakim, ??P14 is Tim_Finin
16:04:57 <Zakim> +Tim_Finin; got it
16:04:59 <jhendler> zakim, ??p14 is TimF
16:04:59 <Zakim> sorry, jhendler, I do not recognize a party named '??p14'
16:05:09 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:05:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, Hori, JimH, Evan_Wallace, JeffH, Tim_Finin
16:05:23 <Zakim> +Deb_Mcguinness
16:05:27 <JosD> JosD has joined #webont
16:06:36 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:06:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, Hori, JimH, Evan_Wallace, JeffH, Tim_Finin, Deb_Mcguinness
16:06:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see JosD, mdean, IanH, jhendler, RRSAgent, logger, Zakim, DanC
16:07:02 <DeborahMc> DeborahMc has joined #webont
16:07:11 <DanC> regrets: DeRoo, Stanton, Sabbouh, Obrst
16:07:36 <DanC> regrets: DeRoo, Stanton, Sabbouh, Obrst, Carroll
16:08:14 <DanC> ----- 1.2 Minutes previous telecon
16:08:21 <DanC> Proposed to accept as a true record of the April 24,2003 telcon:
16:08:21 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0165.html
16:08:22 <DanC> (plus addition of Leo Obrst in attendance)
16:08:28 <DanC> so RESOLVED
16:08:36 <DanC> ----- 1.3 Agenda amendments
16:09:11 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
16:09:44 <DanC> maybe QA stuff
16:09:50 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:09:52 <DanC> ----- 1.4 Telecon schedule
16:09:58 <jhendler> zakim, pick a scribe
16:09:58 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Evan_Wallace
16:10:01 <DanC> - next telecon:  May 8
16:10:15 <DanC> Wallace to scribe.
16:10:24 <DanC> ----- 1.5 ACTION Item Review
16:10:49 <DanC> ACTION: Patel-Schneider to work on proof for issue 5.26 B1,B2
16:10:50 <DanC> (target completion date: not before May 1)
16:10:51 <DanC> CONTINUES.
16:10:56 <Zakim> +[EDS]
16:11:02 <DanC> ACTION Hendler Ask for some pre-LC comments to be resent.
16:11:02 <DanC> DONE
16:11:17 <DanC> ACTION Jeff Heflin to add reference section to requirements document
16:11:18 <DanC> DONE
16:11:42 <DanC> ACTION IanH report on running Lite tests (less datatypes) thru some implementation, e.g. racer
16:11:44 <DanC> in progress.
16:11:50 <DanC> ACTION: IanH report on running Lite tests (less datatypes) thru some implementation, e.g. racer
16:11:52 <DanC> contineus
16:12:26 <DanC> ACTION JJC: point the commentor at 4.x in the test doc and see if that satisfies the comment on reference.
16:12:31 <DanC> CONTINUES.
16:12:46 <DanC> ACTION Guus: keep the commentor up to date on discussion of Nothing in Lite
16:12:48 <DanC> CONTINUES
16:13:15 <DanC> --- 2. Test document (10-15 min)
16:13:40 <DanC> JimH: target looks like 8May
16:13:57 <DanC> ... [something about possible QCR...]
16:15:23 <DanC> from Horrocks on tests http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0193.html
16:16:03 <DanC> IanH: <cardinality/Manifest001#test> 
16:16:03 <DanC> <cardinality/Manifest002#test> 
16:16:03 <DanC> <cardinality/Manifest003#test> 
16:16:03 <DanC> <cardinality/Manifest004#test> 
16:16:07 <DanC> look ok to me.
16:16:21 <Zakim> +??P27
16:16:28 <DanC> RESOLVED to approve those 4 tests.
16:16:37 <jhendler> zakim, ??p27 is charlesW
16:16:37 <Zakim> +charlesW; got it
16:16:58 <DanC> Ian: these look good
16:17:00 <DanC> <equivalentClass/Manifest006#test>
16:17:01 <DanC> <I5.2/Manifest001#test>
16:17:01 <DanC> <I5.2/Manifest002#test>
16:18:19 <DanC> RESOLVED to approve those those 3.
16:19:07 <DanC> proposed: <description-logic/Manifest001#test>
16:19:07 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest002#test>
16:19:07 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest003#test>
16:19:07 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest004#test>
16:19:08 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest005#test>
16:19:10 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest105#test>
16:19:12 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest106#test>
16:19:14 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest901#test>
16:19:16 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest902#test>
16:19:18 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest903#test>
16:19:20 <DanC> <description-logic/Manifest904#test>
16:19:33 <DanC> so RESOLVED.
16:20:11 <DanC> --- 3. LC Comments (30-40 min)
16:20:27 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
16:20:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, Hori, JimH, Evan_Wallace, JeffH, Tim_Finin, Deb_Mcguinness, [IBM], [EDS], charlesW
16:20:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisW, DeborahMc, JosD, mdean, IanH, jhendler, RRSAgent, logger, Zakim, DanC
16:20:32 <DanC> 3,1  add owl:Nothing to OWL Lite
16:20:32 <DanC> Proposal by Ian
16:20:32 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0191.html
16:21:21 <DanC> IanH: last call comment asked why owl:Nothing isn't in owl lite; since we don't have a good reason why not, we looked at adding it...
16:21:40 <DanC> changes in Moving owl:Nothing from DL to Lite Ian Horrocks (Mon, Apr 28 2003) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0184.html
16:22:02 <ChrisW> zakim, [IBM] is temporarily ChrisW
16:22:02 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:23:31 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
16:24:12 <DanC> straw poll shows noone against.
16:24:29 <DanC> editors ready? Deb: yes.
16:24:31 <DanC> noop for Guide
16:24:46 <DanC> MikeD: yes, easy.
16:25:14 <DanC> Ian:I'll get it done for S&AS
16:25:17 <DanC> noop for requirements
16:25:29 <DanC> JimH: er... test?
16:25:47 <GuusS> GuusS has joined #webont
16:25:57 <DanC> changes to tests from IanH http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0186.html
16:26:10 <Zakim> +??P29
16:26:21 <Zakim> +PatH
16:26:22 <jhendler> zakim, ??p29 is Guus
16:26:22 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
16:27:18 <DanC> PROPOSED: to add owl:Nothing to owl lite
16:27:26 <DanC> RESOLVED, Hayes abstaining
16:27:50 <Zakim> +JonathanB
16:28:01 <DanC> ACTION Dean/ref, Horrocks/semantics, Deb/overview, Connolly/guide
16:28:03 <jhendler> zakim, who is here
16:28:03 <Zakim> jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'
16:28:07 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:28:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see DanC, Ian_Horrocks, Mike_Dean, Hori, JimH, Evan_Wallace, JeffH, Tim_Finin, Deb_Mcguinness, ChrisW, [EDS], charlesW, Guus, PatH, JonathanB
16:28:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see GuusS, ChrisW, DeborahMc, JosD, mdean, IanH, jhendler, RRSAgent, logger, Zakim, DanC
16:28:29 <DanC> --- 3.2 qualified cardinality restrictions
16:29:09 <DanC> oops... yes, Connolly/test
16:29:40 <DanC> JimH: [summary, see agenda]
16:29:52 <DanC> JimH: doesn't look like something we can do without another last call.
16:30:06 <DanC> ... and in DAML it looks like there's not a lot of implementation experience
16:30:23 <DanC> IanH: oiled fully supports it
16:30:35 <DanC> ... which is, in a way, how we got here...
16:31:25 <DanC> JimH: does that mean fact supports it? IanH: yes. JimH: ah.
16:32:14 <DanC> JonB: I wonder if some parts of the community already thinks this is part of OWL
16:33:05 <GuusS> q+
16:33:33 <DanC> DanC: example? "a baseball team has 9 players"?
16:33:43 <DanC> that's not it...
16:33:54 <DanC> "a baseball team has 9 players, 3 of whom are outfielders"
16:35:33 <DanC> IanH: it's an expressivity change, because of [... details missed...]
16:37:15 <DanC> DanC: we could talk about proposals to add it; I haven't seen a "soup to nuts" proposal yet
16:37:32 <DanC> JimH: proposals in email so far are not just "do what DAML did"
16:37:44 <DanC> JonB: these *Q things have never been quite clear to me.
16:37:47 <Zakim> +??P0
16:38:20 <jjc> jjc has joined #webont
16:39:04 <DanC> IanH: recent syntax proposals might make it easier to do...
16:39:32 <DanC> JimH: we could reopen [this issue] and postpone it...
16:39:54 <DanC> ... and work on proposals after this version
16:40:56 <DanC> PatH: keep in mind that if it's not in this version, it won't go out for a long time
16:41:24 <jjc> q+
16:41:44 <DanC> ack danc
16:43:36 <DanC> Guus: it does seem important, but it didn't come up in lots of DAML apps, so perhaps not that important. Note we didn't do stuff like defaults, which are also important...
16:43:56 <DanC> ... and note that someValuesFrom can help [?]
16:44:37 <DanC> ... personally, I'd like to see it in, but I see more reasons not to.
16:45:28 <DanC> Jeremy: I'm sorta the other way around: I personally am still comfortable leaving it out, but the arguments against putting it in aren't compelling to me.
16:46:21 <DanC> ... what's going to slow us down is reasoning with individuals. [??] I expect a non-trivial CR while the community learns to deal with it.
16:48:42 <DanC> DanC: I don't like the idea of sorta tacking it on after, though I admit that's possible. Let's decide to put it in or not...
16:50:10 <DanC> ... I think the case that they're needed is well made, but I'll need to see text for the guide and implemented tests before I agree.
16:50:20 <DanC> ack Guus
16:50:22 <DanC> ack jjc
16:53:19 <DanC> ack danc
16:53:31 <DanC> DanC: let's reopen the issue, in any case
16:53:41 <DanC> JimH/Guus: we did that.
16:53:46 <jjc> q+
16:54:17 <DanC> DanC: how many want to postpone? could we strawpoll?
16:54:26 <GuusS> q+
16:54:45 <DanC> Chris: I'm prepared to do the guide; how many implementors are there? can we just ask them?
16:55:07 <DanC> JimH: how many OK to postpone?
16:55:17 <DanC> yes: several
16:55:32 <DanC> no: several
16:56:48 <DanC> JimH: FYI, I phoned Alan R (the commentor) about the time cost...
16:57:17 <jjc> q+
16:57:23 <DanC> ... he'd probably consider postponing (with acknowledgement that this is important) acceptable
16:59:27 <DanC> [... discussion of post-WG stuff... building user community, demand for new features...]
17:00:37 <DanC> ack jjc
17:00:40 <DanC> ack guus
17:01:31 <DanC> GuusS: regarding the medical community, protoge supports the medical community without QCRs, and would not like to add it
17:01:50 <DanC> JimH: ... appleon toolkit... no QCRs...
17:02:28 <DanC> PatH: have they decided *not* to have this?
17:02:42 <DanC> DebM: yes; I went to a recent meeting.
17:02:46 <chas> chas has joined #webont
17:03:14 <DanC> ack DanC
17:03:14 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to suggest taking up Welty's offer to write guide text and perhaps his "ask the implementors" suggestion
17:04:09 <DanC> ACTION JJC propose RDF/XML syntax
17:04:13 <DanC> done. [pointer pending]
17:04:34 <DanC> ACTION PatH propose RDF/XML syntax. (withdrawn?)
17:06:56 <DanC> ACTION GuusS: write proposal to add QCRs to OWL, including text for the guide.
17:07:54 <DanC> ACTION JimH: notify the SemWeb CG that Richter's comment has introduced a schedule risk
17:09:05 <DanC> Path: which costs more
17:09:17 <DanC> Path: which costs more, more tokens in the namespace or more complex triple syntax?
17:09:26 <GuusS> q+
17:09:26 <DanC> DanC: what costs is changing the meaning of existing documents.
17:10:44 <DanC> [... technical discussion, discussion of impact on NCI ontology... folks that want this recorded in detail will please send mail...]
17:12:07 <DanC> ack Guus
17:12:26 <DanC> GuusS: so keep the existing thing, but add something more general too... is that the way to go?
17:12:33 <DanC> [... some support...]
17:14:03 <DanC> IanH: in 0176, I gave a pretty detailed proposal...
17:14:19 <IanH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0176.html
17:14:30 <DanC> Qualified Cardinality Restrictions
17:14:31 <DanC> From: Ian Horrocks (horrocks@cs.man.ac.uk)
17:14:31 <DanC> Date: Mon, Apr 28 2003 
17:17:41 <DanC> -- 4. Presentation Syntax Documents (5-10 min)
17:18:13 <DanC> # Update: XML Presentation Syntax [draft for W3C Note] Masahiro Hori (Thu, Mar 27 2003)  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Mar/0241.html
17:19:32 <DanC> Guus: propose to publish
17:20:06 <DanC> ... with SOTD that says "updates expected"
17:20:45 <DanC> PROPOSED: to publish the 27Mar version
17:20:58 <DanC> so RESOLVED, Connolly abstaining
17:21:04 <DanC> Hayes abstaining
17:22:41 <jjc> point-of-order two questions about Test (having reviewed IRC)
17:24:02 <DanC> ACTION Masahiro: deliver pubrules-happy draft
17:24:09 <DanC> ACTION Connolly: publish XML syntax
17:24:16 <DanC> ---- test
17:24:25 <DanC> jjc: pls unapprove cardinality/005
17:24:55 <DanC> so RESOLVED.
17:25:30 <DanC> withdrawn: Guus to prepare note to RDF regarding PFPS08 and its relation
17:25:30 <DanC> to the above resolution.
17:25:56 <DanC> ACTION DanC: try to develop test cases that clarify this XML literals
17:25:56 <DanC> stuff for WebOnt and RDFCore
17:26:04 <DanC> CONTINUED, with apologies.
17:27:01 <DanC> --- 5. RDF response (0-5 min)
17:27:19 <jjc> DanC: on datatypes:
17:27:44 <jhendler> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0005.html
17:27:53 <jjc> we took a decision but that decision only integer and string are guaranteed
17:29:29 <Zakim> -JonathanB
17:29:46 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
17:30:03 <ChrisW> Bye!
17:30:08 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:30:16 <DanC> ACTON DanC: get review of datatypes decision by I18N WG CONTINUES.
17:30:32 <jjc> ACTION: jjc change SHOULD to MUST for xsd:itneger and xsd:string
17:30:53 <jhendler> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0008.html
17:31:59 <DanC> on rdf:about="" and xml:base and all that
17:32:02 <DanC> pls discuss in email
17:32:07 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
17:32:11 <Zakim> -[EDS]
17:32:12 <Zakim> -Ian_Horrocks
17:32:13 <Zakim> -Tim_Finin
17:32:14 <Zakim> -PatH
17:32:16 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:32:16 <DanC> ADJOURN.
17:32:17 <Zakim> -JeremyC
17:32:19 <Zakim> -JeffH
17:32:20 <Zakim> -Hori
17:32:22 <Zakim> -charlesW
17:32:40 <Zakim> -JimH
17:32:41 <Zakim> -DanC
17:32:42 <Zakim> -Guus
17:32:44 <Zakim> -Deb_Mcguinness
17:32:45 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
17:47:02 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:47:03 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-47-02
17:47:08 <DanC> RRSAgent, bye
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> I see 10 open action items:
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Patel-Schneider to work on proof for issue 5.26 B1,B2 [1]
17:47:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T16-10-49
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: IanH report on running Lite tests (less datatypes) thru some implementation, e.g. racer [2]
17:47:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T16-11-50
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JJC to point the commentor at 4.x in the test doc and see if that satisfies the comment on reference. [3]
17:47:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T16-12-26
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Guus to keep the commentor up to date on discussion of Nothing in Lite [4]
17:47:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T16-12-46
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: GuusS to write proposal to add QCRs to OWL, including text for the guide. [5]
17:47:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-06-56
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JimH to notify the SemWeb CG that Richter's comment has introduced a schedule risk [6]
17:47:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-07-54
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Masahiro to deliver pubrules-happy draft [7]
17:47:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-24-02
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Connolly to publish XML syntax [8]
17:47:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-24-09
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to try to develop test cases that clarify this XML literals [9]
17:47:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-25-56
17:47:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jjc change SHOULD to MUST for xsd:itneger and xsd:string [10]
17:47:09 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/05/01-webont-irc#T17-30-32