14:45:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:00:02 <logger> logger has joined #webont
15:18:53 <DanC> Zakim, this will be WEBO
15:18:53 <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see SW_WebOnt()12:00PM scheduled to start in 42 minutes
15:34:22 <DanC> agenda + 24Apr http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0120.html
15:34:34 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: 24 Apr telcon http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/
15:34:45 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:34:45 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2003/04/24-webont-irc#T15-34-45
15:49:32 <GuusS> GuusS has joined #webont
15:54:32 <baget> baget has joined #webont
15:56:17 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:56:24 <Zakim> +??P2
15:56:40 <GuusS> zakim, ??P2 is Guus
15:56:40 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
15:57:12 <Zakim> +DanC
15:57:18 <Zakim> +??P3
15:57:45 <GuusS> zakim, ??P3 is Jerome
15:57:45 <Zakim> +Jerome; got it
15:58:18 <Zakim> -DanC
15:58:45 <Zakim> +[EDS]
15:59:03 <pfps> pfps has joined #webont
16:00:01 <Zakim> +??P8
16:00:31 <pfps> zakim, ??p8 is pfps
16:00:31 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
16:01:18 <Zakim> +Tim_Finin
16:01:37 <Zakim> +??P12
16:01:39 <Zakim> +DanC
16:01:59 <GuusS> zakim, Tim_Finin is Jeff
16:01:59 <Zakim> +Jeff; got it
16:02:09 <Zakim> +Ian_Horrocks
16:02:15 <DanC> zakim, Tim_Finin is really JeffH
16:02:15 <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'Tim_Finin'
16:02:20 <Zakim> +??P15
16:02:34 <DanC> Zakim, ??P15 is YassirA
16:02:34 <Zakim> +YassirA; got it
16:02:35 <Zakim> +Marwan_Sabbouh
16:02:36 <Zakim> +??P18
16:02:41 <IanH> IanH has joined #webont
16:02:43 <GuusS> zakim, ??
16:02:43 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, GuusS.
16:02:58 <jjc> jjc has joined #webont
16:03:11 <jjc> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, DanC, Jerome, [EDS], pfps, Jeff, ??P12, Ian_Horrocks, YassirA, Marwan_Sabbouh, ??P18 (muted)
16:03:24 <jjc> Zakim, ??P18 is jjc
16:03:24 <Zakim> +jjc; got it
16:03:38 <jjc> I was muted
16:03:43 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:03:59 <GuusS> zakim, ??P12 is Hwrman
16:03:59 <Zakim> +Hwrman; got it
16:04:03 <Zakim> +??P19
16:04:18 <GuusS> zakim, ??p18 is Jeremy
16:04:18 <Zakim> sorry, GuusS, I do not recognize a party named '??p18'
16:04:45 <GuusS> zakim, ??p12 is Herman
16:04:45 <Zakim> sorry, GuusS, I do not recognize a party named '??p12'
16:04:50 <Zakim> +??P26
16:05:24 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:05:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, DanC, Jerome, [EDS], pfps, Jeff, Hwrman, Ian_Horrocks, YassirA, Marwan_Sabbouh, jjc (muted), Mike_Dean, ??P19, ??P26
16:05:25 <GuusS> zakim, ??p26 is TimF
16:05:26 <Zakim> +TimF; got it
16:05:34 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:05:34 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
16:05:36 <timfinin> timfinin has joined #webont
16:06:51 <DanC> Zakim, ??P19 is CharlesW
16:06:51 <Zakim> +CharlesW; got it
16:06:57 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:06:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, DanC, Jerome, [EDS], pfps, Jeff, Hwrman, Ian_Horrocks, YassirA, Marwan_Sabbouh, jjc (muted), Mike_Dean, CharlesW, TimF
16:07:14 <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
16:07:14 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:07:15 <Zakim> 1. 24Apr http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0120.html [from DanC]
16:07:25 <DanC> regrets: McGuinness, Stanton
16:07:34 <DanC> Regrets: Hendler, Wallace (probable)
16:07:36 <Zakim> +??P31
16:07:49 <DanC> (other regrets in the www-webont-wg archive)
16:07:58 <DanC> Zakim, ??P31 is LeoO
16:07:58 <Zakim> +LeoO; got it
16:08:18 <DanC> RESOLVED to accept as a true record of the April 10,2003 telcon:
16:08:18 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0060.html
16:08:26 <DanC> --- 1.3 Agenda amendments
16:08:47 <DanC> Guus: rdf:List, from Jeremy. under 5. RDF response (5-10 min)
16:09:07 <DanC> Guus: also QA review. under AOB
16:09:21 <DanC> -- 1.4 Telecon schedule
16:09:43 <jjc> i expect to be on holiday next week
16:09:50 <DanC> next meeting: 1May, per regular schedule
16:09:55 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:09:55 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jeff
16:10:00 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:10:00 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pfps
16:10:12 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:10:12 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pfps
16:10:25 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:10:25 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Hwrman
16:10:41 <DanC> Patel-Schneider to scribe 1MAy
16:10:48 <DanC> --- 1.5 ACTION Item Review
16:10:54 <DanC> ACTION: DanC request review by internationalisation board of decision
16:10:55 <DanC> on datatypes.
16:12:00 <DanC> continued, with apologies for the delay.
16:12:52 <DanC> ACTION: Patel-Schneider to work on proof for issue 5.26 B1,B2
16:12:52 <DanC> (target completion date: not before May 1)
16:12:59 <DanC> continues.
16:13:34 <DanC> PFPS: stuff brought up by jeremy make it more difficult.
16:13:42 <DanC> ACTION Hendler Ask for some pre-LC comments to be resent.
16:13:49 <DanC> continues, though progress has been made
16:13:56 <DanC> DONE: Jeff Heflin to add reference section to requirements document
16:14:03 <DanC> DONE: Heflin Add second line to editors draft pointing at LC.
16:14:11 <DanC> DONE: Heflin Change firstname/lastname to e-mail.
16:14:19 <DanC> DONE: Heflin Add change log appendix to editors draft.
16:14:23 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0107.html
16:14:29 <DanC> DONE: McGuinness Add second line to editors draft pointing at LC.
16:14:35 <DanC> DONE: McGuiness Add change log appendix to editors draft.
16:14:43 <DanC> DONE: Dean Add second line to editors draft pointing at LC.
16:14:49 <DanC> DONE: Dean Add change log appendix to editors draft.
16:14:58 <DanC> --- 2. Test document (10-15 min)
16:15:08 <DanC> Jeremy to send email to WG identifying where he could use help
16:15:08 <DanC> and a proposed schedule.
16:15:08 <DanC> DONE:
16:15:08 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0062.html
16:15:27 <Jerome> /join
16:15:49 <DanC> JJC: two must dos remaining: 1 [?help?], 2: reflect datatypes decision
16:15:59 <DanC> JJC: I'm not available to work on test next week. on holiday tomorrow.
16:16:09 <Jerome> /join
16:16:13 <DanC> JJC: not likely to have a Last Call candidate by 1May
16:17:29 <DanC> JJC: I did the compound document split just now. [yeah! -- DanC]
16:18:34 <DanC> [... missed some; not sure how important it was...]
16:18:50 <DanC> JJC: some new tests based on input from Sean [... technical details missed...]
16:21:09 <DanC> DanC: I'm not seeing as much implementor feedback as I expected when I started planning to skip CR. I expect we'll need a 6 month CR now.
16:21:14 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:22:36 <DanC> IanH: we'll run all the tests we can, but won't be able to run all the list tests... dunno about datatypes.
16:23:06 <DanC> ACTION IanH: report on running Lite tests (less datatypes) thru some implementation, e.g. racer
16:23:57 <DanC> IanH: the hardest part of doing the tests is parsing
16:25:09 <DanC> JJC: yes... I have some code to do that... IanH: so do we (Sean)... but it's a significant overhead... JJC: yes.
16:26:00 <DanC> ACTION Guus: poll Bijan, Protoje, and [karlsurle?] to get test feedback
16:26:06 <DanC> IanH: hmm... JTP folks?
16:26:27 <Zakim> +??P16
16:26:43 <DanC> Zakim, ??P16 is JonathanB
16:26:43 <Zakim> +JonathanB; got it
16:27:29 <DanC> JJC: [... on state of HP's implementation work; maybe jjc will elaborate in email?]
16:27:53 <DanC> IanH: JJC, if you could get your parser to convert to the dig syntax [?], you'd get 2 reasoners for free. Racer and [?]
16:29:09 <Zakim> +??P38
16:29:33 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
16:29:46 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (28%), JonathanB (5%), jjc (51%)
16:30:17 <DanC> Guus: so 8May is a target for test document
16:30:26 <DanC> == 3. LC Comments (20-30 min)
16:31:05 <DanC> - add owl:Nothing to OWL Lite
16:31:05 <DanC> - where is the precise syntax of OWL?
16:31:28 <DanC> Guus collects advice on whether to open issues here
16:32:43 <DanC> IanH: recalling from history, not having Nothing in owl Lite seemed "simpler" by measure of less tokens.
16:33:21 <jjc> external comment is new evidence
16:33:41 <jjc> q+
16:33:56 <DanC> JonB: reasons for putting it in?
16:34:18 <DanC> IanH: it's useful and it's low cost to add.
16:34:40 <DanC> ack jjc
16:34:51 <jjc> ack
16:35:48 <DanC> Guus: issue re-opened, with Ian as owner.
16:36:01 <DanC> (we'll get the number presently)
16:36:53 <DanC> ... discussion postponed until a proposal is available
16:36:58 <DanC> - where is the precise syntax of OWL?
16:38:23 <Zakim> +PatH
16:42:12 <DanC> DanC suggests http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/#docConformance answers the question
16:42:23 <Zakim> -??P38
16:45:57 <DanC> ACTION JJC: point the commentor at 4.x in the test doc and see if that satisfies the comment on reference.
16:46:04 <DanC> apr msg 0024
16:46:48 <DanC> ACTION Guus: keep the commentor up to date on discussion of Nothing in Lite
16:48:28 <jjc> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-ref/#appB
16:48:50 <DanC> Guus: appendix B of reference... (Normative)... shouldn't be there.
16:48:55 <DanC> ?
16:49:35 <DanC> Guus: I'll fix.
16:49:51 <DanC> --- 3.1 qualified cardinlity restrictions
16:50:04 <DanC> Guus: issue has been re-opened
16:50:40 <DanC> DanC: can we straw poll?
16:50:47 <jjc> Zakim, unmute jjc
16:50:47 <Zakim> jjc was not muted, jjc
16:50:55 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone
16:50:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', DanC
16:50:59 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:50:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, DanC, Jerome, [EDS], pfps, Jeff, Hwrman, Ian_Horrocks, YassirA, Marwan_Sabbouh, jjc, CharlesW, TimF, LeoO, JonathanB, PatH
16:51:56 <DanC> Y A Y A N N Y Y Y A N Y Y Y Y Y
16:52:21 <jjc> q+ to argue against
16:52:25 <DanC> straw poll shows lots in favor to put it in, a few against, and a few abstain
16:53:28 <DanC> IanH: the feature was in DAML+OIL; it doesn't cost a lot; it was removed due to "feature count" and lack of understanding and uses cases at the time...
16:53:43 <DanC> ... since then the use cases and understanding have become more clear
16:54:21 <DanC> ... I've seen implementation experience
16:54:38 <DanC> PatH: adding it makes explaining things easier
16:55:29 <Zakim> -JonathanB
16:56:15 <DanC> jjc: I'm not satisfied with the implementation experience I've seen.
16:56:47 <GuusS> ack jjc
16:56:47 <Zakim> jjc, you wanted to argue against
16:56:56 <GuusS> ack jjc
16:59:35 <DanC> DanC: I think the commentor's case is well made, but I'll need to see text for the guide and test cases that are implemented before I'll agree.
17:00:28 <DanC> Mike: once the syntax is worked out, it shouldn't be hard to explain
17:00:49 <DanC> Guus: I find the commentor's use cases compelling and relevant.
17:01:07 <DanC> Yassir: yes, the modelling capability here is important.
17:01:40 <DanC> JJC: re syntax... rather than hasCardinalityQ, we could have QualifiedRestriction as a class, so that the current owl:Restriction remains unchanged...
17:01:55 <DanC> [details in a recent message, I gather]
17:03:33 <DanC> IanH: how about using a class all the time, and having folks use owl:Thing for the unqualified case
17:05:39 <DanC> PatH: "don't put more than four spices in a recipe"
17:06:06 <DanC> IanH: "at least 2 courses of type primo piasto"
17:07:31 <DanC> JJC: I could get constraints on banquets
17:10:28 <DanC> ACTION JJC: propose syntax
17:10:55 <DanC> ACTION 7 = JJC: propose RDF/XML syntax
17:12:22 <timfinin> I've got to leave a bit early.  bye.
17:12:25 <timfinin> timfinin has left #webont
17:12:31 <Zakim> -TimF
17:12:52 <DanC> ACTION PatH: propose RDF/XML syntax
17:13:17 <Zakim> -LeoO
17:13:59 <DanC> ACTION JJC: get real data about the complexity of italian banquet
17:14:09 <DanC> MikeS: should be easy to do a guide section based on that
17:14:26 <DanC> == 4. Pesentation Syntax Documents (0-5 min)
17:14:43 <DanC> postponed due to Masahiro's absence
17:15:09 <DanC> == 5. RDF response (5-10 min)
17:16:32 <DanC> I'm lost. msg  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0031.html is somehow relevant.
17:18:08 <DanC> [... discussion of several issues in RDF Core ...]
17:30:33 <DanC> PROPOSED: endorse pfps-08
17:31:48 <DanC> ACTION DanC: try to develop test cases that clarify this XML literals stuff for WebOnt and RDFCore
17:33:00 <DanC> ADJOURN.
17:33:02 <Zakim> -Marwan_Sabbouh
17:33:03 <Zakim> -[EDS]
17:33:05 <Zakim> -YassirA
17:33:07 <Zakim> -Jerome
17:33:11 <Zakim> -Ian_Horrocks
17:33:12 <Zakim> -Jeff
17:33:13 <Zakim> -CharlesW
17:33:18 <Zakim> -Hwrman
17:45:14 <Zakim> -Guus
17:47:40 <Zakim> -PatH
17:47:41 <Zakim> -DanC
17:47:42 <Zakim> -jjc
17:47:43 <Zakim> -pfps
17:47:44 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended