IRC log of tp on 2003-03-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

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2003-03-05 Technical Plenary
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-> agenda
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This channel for logging TP sessions?
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Ian has changed the topic to: Tech Plenary
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yes this is the channel
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mc, ht and ij are this morning scribers
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Session 1: Welcome! by Steve Bratt
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slides at:
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zarella, did you get your web access problem sorted?
13:34:59 [zrendon]
Yes, thanks.
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Slide 3
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sb: I encourage you to sign at today's BOF tables
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sb: town session at the end of the day, ian jacobs will moderate it
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...please prepare your questions and write them down on pieces of paper...
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I am happy to collect them all day long
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... but, Why Are We Here?:
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W3C's Mission:
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Engineering the Web's Foundational Technologies:
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Work Organization:
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sb: the org chart, done by ivan herman, is at
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sb: we started 8 new activities from last year
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sb: essential in W3C = the coordination between WGs
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Tools for Coordination:
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sb displays the org chart showing dependencies among WGs
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sb: we didn't show dependencies from the QA groups, for ex., since they influence all WGs
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scatter chart... oooh... ahh...
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Technical Plenary Week Participation
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sb: record in participation + 30 different groups meeting this week
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Recommendations, Completed and En Route:
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sb shows the REC timeline
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Tools for Reaching REC Faster:
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sb: most important way to reach REC fast is to reach consensus
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sb: we will present very helpful tools such as the voting system, set up by Dominique Hazael-Massieux
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Future Work:
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Tech Plenary Agenda:
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Sniffing ether in a meeting is good for ones wakefulness
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sb presents today's agenda
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agenda at
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--- Questions?
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Session 2: What Does Anywhere, Anytime, Anyone, Any Device Access to the Web Really Mean?
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Dave Raggett in the chair
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welcome, introduction of panelists
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dr promises demo!
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Second slide
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(All slides are at same URL)
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Third slide
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Call again for URL for these slides, anyone?
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it's at
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slide 3
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rg hands over to Jim Larson
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jl plays at calling on a cell phone
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and getting a voicemail system
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"Any time, any where, without being placed on hold"
14:12:26 [tvraman]
we should have a hack that results in the slides in a browser flipping when the scribe says next slide on the irc channel
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second slide (all in same PDF doc't)
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third slide
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fourth slide
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fifth slide
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14:15:28 [DanC]
hmm... which is that semantic mapping spec?
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sixth slide
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jl hands over to Deborah Dahl
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[speaker has net problems too]
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Activities: Multimodal interaction framework
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interaction management
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Extensible Multimodal annotation
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Ink Markup -- representing pen input
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dd hands over to Janina Sajka
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slide URL, anyone?
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WAI and multimodal
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the URL is on screen:
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dr introduces Roger Gimson again for Challenges section
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slide pointer????
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sg hands over to Scott McGlashan
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sg hands over to Deborah Dahl
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14:42:17 [Tantek]
Are these presentations supposed to be member only? (e.g. URLs above have been mostly W3C member only)
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14:42:34 [Ian]
Tantek: Public
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Ian: Not according to checklink:
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dr hands over to Janina Sajka
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no slides
14:45:32 [ht]
audio demo coming up
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js points out that disability evolves
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as people age, sight and hearing deteriorate
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if we get this [multimodality] right, we should be able to smoothly adjust the balance of modality for an individual as their needs change
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js how to break through the "the disability market is too small to drive development"
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14:48:15 [ht]
js limited vocab voice interaction is not far from providing for deaf/h-o-h users
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via translation to symbolic interaction
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14:49:15 [ht]
js final point on fluidity: when technology is immature (i.e. speech in/out), early adopters will be the ones who _have_ to have it, that is, the blind user community
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so this isn't about disability, it's about being clever about using sound output
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general population will need higher quality, but they'll be interested then too
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js decides to postpone the demo in favour of questions
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question time -- mikes in aisles
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14:50:38 [marie]
Steven Pemberton
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dr, please ask people to identify themselves
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sp: isn't voice markup doing too much?
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better to integrate _into_ other languages, instead of trying to be free standing
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rgimson says yes, next generation will do that
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s/rgimson/scott McGlashan/
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14:51:49 [ht]
but for getting started doing a standalone solution was a good idea
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Rotan Hanrahan
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14:52:14 [ht]
In the early days, content creation was easy
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at the expense of access
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14:52:37 [ht]
today we've got richer delivery, but creation is now much harder
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Larson: yes, it's more complex
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but it's possible, and the complexity enables more exciting content
14:53:11 [Tantek]
I agree that ease of authoring is still very important.
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authoring tools also are emerging which manange the complexity
14:53:32 [ht]
we'll get good stuff, and also terrible stuff
14:53:55 [marie]
Gerald Edgar, Boeing Corp.
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sj endorses authoring tools need to take up the slack
14:54:06 [Tantek]
tools are good to have, but don't underestimate impact and necessity of hand-coders.
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ge: size had changes, bandwidth has changed, but what about a radical shift, e.g. our punch presses could be web clients
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what kind of non-standard UI does this require
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RGimson: for such a machine, the key aspect is a common way of expressing interaction
14:55:40 [ht]
DI WG has been looking at XForms to provide a foundation for d-i interaction
14:56:05 [Karl-lap]
Tantek: Authoring will be still be possible. It doesn't make sense to compare the past with the future, in the sense that the people can continue to author HTML as before, and it's why it's wonderful. We just reached a point where we address a lot more techniques and languages.
14:56:07 [ht]
rg: if filling in a field controls what the machine will do, separation of form from semantics is the key
14:56:38 [ht]
rg: still more to do in the area of coping with the event aspects of this example
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??: not just the user interaction, but the machine tool is physically creating the output presentation
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rg: yes, the output presentation is a bit of 3d stuff
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Martin Duerst, W3C
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rg: outputing to physical as opposed to electronic media is important to HP
14:57:44 [ht]
md: different media have different challenges
14:58:13 [ht]
md: remind everyone that a lot of different [natural] languages out there, with many people speaking only one of them
14:58:46 [ht]
md: does progress in machine translation, perhaps not enough progress, point to an additional direction for your work
14:59:17 [ht]
md: multiple documents for multiple modalities in multiple languages increases the need to be good on re-use on other dimensions
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md: example -- voice interaction asks again if it gets the wrong answer, similar pblm for wrong language, maybe?
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JLarson: we have to work towards using _one_ document for the different modalities, with different purposing
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smcg: spoken language identification isn't up to it yet
15:00:49 [ht]
multilingual recognition yes, 50 -- 60 languages available at some level
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smcg: usual approach is generation from content on demand, to produce required language
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jlarson: alternative, e.g. airline seat consoles, is non-linguistic interfaces
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Pat Hayes
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ph: Advantages of speech, are advantages of natural language in general
15:02:10 [ht]
ph: if you're going to tackle NLU, that's a _very_ hard problem
15:02:33 [ht]
dd: yes, speech and language have similar advantages
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dd: in our groups, we're not trying to handle the full complexity of NLU
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dd: focus on specifying the limited number of responses which are relevant, to constrain the recognition pblm
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15:03:43 [ht]
jlarson: we cheat a lot, we do word recognition, we write clever dialogues to guide people where we want to go
15:04:15 [ht]
smcg: we're doing better now because of a shift from rule-based to statistics-based approaches
15:04:38 [ht]
moving up from the low-level SR to NLU, forcing interpretation on _any_ utterance
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ph: yes, I'm aware, but the significance of a 'not' can easily be lost
15:05:02 [marie]
Hakon Lie, Opera
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dr: time to wind up
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hl: thanks for good work
15:05:28 [ht]
a furter relevant spec., "Media Queries", coming from CSS
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allowing ss rules to be gated by result of queries to destination medium
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TV Raman, IBM
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raman rao
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TV Raman
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rr: back to question about authoring, yes, easy content creation is crucial
15:07:00 [ht]
rr: HTML started simple, got complex, then simpler with CSS
15:07:28 [ht]
rr: going forward with multimodality and speech, we need to look for the same separation
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rr: content authoring separated from mm interface on top
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Panel agrees
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dr: separation is very much on VB WG's agenda
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Ralph Swick: 3 MB bandwidth from here, if you stick to vanilla stuff
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please stop doing peer-to-peer file sharing
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or you risk getting cut off from net altogether
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Hi from WearableGizmo
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hi DanC-AIM
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15:35:36 [marie]
---- Session 3: The Evolving Web Architecture
15:35:46 [Ian]
Panel: RF, TBL, PC, NW, DO, DC, CL, SW. Moderator Steve Zilles
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15:36:08 [DanC-AIM]
15:36:29 [Ian]
SZ: Plan: Overview, Arch Doc, XML ID, XML Profiles, Namespace Docs
15:36:34 [DanC-AIM]
Wow... Look at all these people in the audience! Must bt 500 or so!
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SZ: 10-15 mins of questions at the end.
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[Only TAG person missing is Tim Bray]
15:37:14 [DanC-AIM]
Wonder if the record will include photos of the audience.
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15:38:27 [Ian]
Intro from SW:
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15:40:00 [JosD]
A: I just spoke with Luc, who's actually a heavy believer in declarative languages, and it's quite clear that RDF could help a lot to achieve inter-app interoperability here
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What we are Chartered to Do?
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How We Work?
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15:40:58 [JosD]
A: ""
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The things we produce
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15:42:55 [DanC-AIM]
Hmm.. poll audience as to who subscribes to www-tag?
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Possible Misconceptions
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ANd who reads it if subscribed :-)
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TAG Communication
15:44:36 [Ian]
15:44:44 [Norm]
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15:46:05 [Ian]
15:46:19 [Ian]
15:46:19 [Ian]
How do we increase the participation of W3C members on www-tag?
15:46:19 [Ian]
15:46:19 [Ian]
How could the TAG improve its interaction with W3C WGs and/or public?
15:46:19 [Ian]
15:46:20 [Ian]
Is there a better way for the TAG to organize its work?
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(other than issues, findings and WDs)?
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15:47:04 [Ian]
Architecture Document Overview
15:47:06 [Ian]
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15:47:41 [Ian]
DC: These are Tim Bray slides; some updates since then
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15:47:50 [Ian]
DC: Editor's drafts since 15 Nov 2002
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15 Nov 2002 draft
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15:48:24 [Ian]
Why Webarch?
15:49:06 [Ian]
DC: What are the principles that I'd like webmasters/developers to know?
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15:49:30 [Ian]
The Architectural Tripod
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DC: Identification/Representation/Machine interaction
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15:51:17 [Ian]
Principles re: Universal Addressing
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15:51:33 [Ian]
DC: Motification for using URIs: Network Effect
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"The URI, the whole URI, and nothing but the URI!"
15:52:59 [Ian]
Principles re: Resource Representations
15:53:13 [Ian]
DC: Those present at this meeting are our primary audience; specs need to be consistent with these principles
15:53:52 [Ian]
Resource Representations (2)
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Resource Representations (3)
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Principles re: Interaction
15:56:19 [Ian]
DC: Not much writing in this section; looking at Roy Fielding's thesis, e.g.
15:56:47 [Ian]
DC polls crowd
15:57:00 [Ian]
1) Subscribers to www-tag? a fair number
15:57:08 [Ian]
2) How many have skimmed arch doc? a few
15:57:27 [Ian]
15:57:30 [olivier]
should have asked "who left www-tag because of s/n ratio?" maybe :)
15:57:47 [Ian]
Roger Cutler, Chevron
15:58:27 [Ian]
RC, with trepidation: (1) disingenuous that it's a misconception that the TAG is not telling WGs what to do. The TAG IS telling WGs what to do.
15:58:48 [Ian]
RC: (2) If you read the arch doc, it's a more reasoned doc than many people's interpretation.
15:58:58 [Ian]
RC: Like what some people do to the Bible.
15:59:30 [Ian]
DC: I think people share RC's concerns. I was nervous about the TAG initially. But W3C considered that it was better to try than not to try.
15:59:35 [Ian]
(this experiment)
16:00:06 [Ian]
SZ: The TAG was set up to do some things that individual WGs can't do on their own.
16:00:16 [Chris]
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16:00:25 [Ian]
SZ: The other piece of the TAG charter was to prepare Rec track docs. "AC accountability"
16:01:11 [Ian]
RC: In the WSA WG, someone expressed a strong opinion that a definition in the TAG's arch doc HAD to be used in the WSA document.
16:01:50 [Ian]
DO: This is about the definition of the term "agent."
16:01:51 [Liam]
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DO: The WSA WG was working on a definition of the term "agent"; the definitions were unrelated to one another. In their first cut, the WSA WG took the TAG's dfn, changed it, and didn't reference the source.
16:02:24 [PGrosso]
Personally, I have very little interest in rehashing this "political" stuff. I want to have time to talk about XML profiles and xml:id. Can we shorten this current rehashing.
16:02:37 [Ian]
DO: I objected, stating that the WG should feed that info back to the TAG.
16:03:01 [Ian]
DO: Furthermore, I wanted a relationship such as "A Web Services agenda is a Web agent that..."
16:03:44 [Ian]
SZ: Would you consider the process to be working?
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DO: Yes, I think so.
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16:04:30 [Ian]
Mike Champion (MC): What's the relationship between description and prescription in TAG activity?
16:04:50 [Ian]
MC: I see in the arch doc a lot of should's and must's. Not seeing the web as it is from the should's and must's.
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MC: Where do you draw the line between stupid cruft that people do and Web principles?
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CL: If people are doing something because they don't know better, we should improve outreach. If they do something because they have to, then we need to fix something.
16:05:52 [Ian]
DC: I would like to see more argument behind principle in the document.
16:06:24 [Ian]
CL: Also tension between brevity and rationale.
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16:07:01 [Ian]
Noah Mendelsohn: I like what's in the arch doc, but it's not what I expected.
16:07:31 [Ian]
NW: I see instead a number of subtle insights. But perhaps also because architecture bases lie elsewhere; don't want to repeat.
16:07:33 [Ian]
16:07:37 [Ian]
16:07:50 [Ian]
NM: A specific example: "How much of the Web do you see to be REST-ful?"
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16:08:28 [Ian]
NM: A good arch doc should give the big picture.
16:09:02 [Ian]
TBL: Several different views of what "architecture" means. The TAG does something different from other WGs (e.g., WSA WG).
16:09:15 [Ian]
TBL: Some people expect block diagram (with successive elaboration on request).
16:09:31 [Ian]
TBL: I don't think we can put 4 corners around the Web.
16:09:57 [Ian]
TBL: When people either extend the Web or bring something into the Web, what are the things they need to look out for?
16:10:07 [Ian]
TBL: E.g., you can write as many new formats as you wish, but please use URIs
16:11:01 [Ian]
NM: Then say what TBL said in the arch doc: Here's why you shouldn't look for a block diagram in this doc.
16:11:10 [Ian]
NM: Or change the title to something like "Principles for using the Web"
16:11:12 [Chris]
'observations on we architecture'
16:11:31 [Ian]
RF: A lot of what NM said is likely to be covered in as-yet-unwritten sections of the doc
16:12:39 [Ian]
DO: The TAG has been largely user-driven in their first year, responding to questions that have been raised. The Arch Doc is a resource where those findings can be pinned.
16:12:47 [Ian]
DO: In year 2 we expect to fill in other parts of the arch doc.
16:13:23 [marie]
Ann Basseti, AB
16:13:26 [Ian]
Ann Bassetti (AB): I'm relieved that the TAG was created; these questions used to come to the AB!
16:13:36 [Ian]
(i.e., the Advisory Board)
16:14:10 [Ian]
AB: The Advisory Board's discussion is calmer now that Paul Cotton is on the TAG ;)
16:14:23 [Ian]
AB: I strongly encourage those in this room to subscribe to www-tag.
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[AB does her usual stellar job of reminding folks that "W3C is YOU!"]
16:15:21 [Ian]
Jonathan Robie (JR)
16:15:33 [Ian]
JR: The TAG is doing a good job.
16:15:38 [Chris]
more interesting than xml-dev ;-)
16:15:41 [MSM]
Data Direct Technologies
16:16:14 [Ian]
JR: I hear the TAG saying "There's a TAG finding; if it's broken; please tell us."
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IJ: Roger Cutler's suggestions on when-to-use-get are likely to result in a new revision.
16:17:24 [Ian]
[Chris Lilley presentation]
16:17:30 [Ian]
XML ID for well formed documents
16:17:33 [Ian]
16:17:53 [Ian]
CL: Here's the technical meat.
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16:18:27 [Ian]
CL: How many people would agree with the statement "ID's arise as the result of validation?"
16:18:35 [Ian]
CL: Can they arise through other means?
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16:18:40 [Ian]
CL points:
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* The instance is well formed
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* The instance is not valid(atable)
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* The partnum attribute on foo is of type ID
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16:19:16 [Ian]
Jonathan Marsh: We get into the infoset....
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16:19:31 [Ian]
CL: Largely people assume that validation => fetching DTDs => IDs
16:19:34 [Norm]
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Evidence of brokenness
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CL: In DOM 2, getElementByID
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CL: CSS2, ID selectors
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16:22:01 [Ian]
CL: XHTML 1.0, user agent conformance: "# When a user agent processes an XHTML document as generic XML, it shall only recognize attributes of type ID (i.e. the id attribute on most XHTML elements) as fragment identifiers."
16:22:25 [Ian]
CL: SOAP doesn't have a DTD at all (security and performance reasons).
16:22:36 [Ian]
CL: But it has ID:
16:22:55 [Ian]
NM: It's a schema ID, not a DTD ID
16:23:44 [Ian]
TAG Issue
16:23:47 [Norm]
Gudge says SOAP IDs are neither DTD IDs nor XML Schema IDs.
16:24:02 [Ian]
[CL hints that he is writing a finding as we speak on this topic.]
16:24:28 [Ian]
CL: Lots of discussion on www-tag; people made good comments and suggestions.
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16:24:45 [Ian]
An example - xml:id
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16:24:55 [Gudge]
my mail is at
16:25:03 [Ian]
CL: Class of solutions using a well-known name; if you want an ID, use that name.
16:25:24 [Ian]
CL: Let's put what we want in an XML namespace.
16:25:32 [Ian]
CL: E.g., xml:id (like xml:base)
16:25:43 [Ian]
CL: * Needs small change to instance document for each affected ID attribute
16:25:54 [Ian]
CL: Can't call things "partnum"; need to call xml:id
16:25:59 [Ian]
CL: Class 2 of solutions
16:26:05 [Ian]
16:26:13 [Ian]
16:26:35 [Ian]
CL: Example: <foo xml:idAttr="id" id="x1"/>
16:26:43 [Ian]
CL: Says what attribute in this (sub)tree is of type ID
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16:26:57 [Ian]
CL: Scope issues arise.
16:27:05 [Ian]
CL: (When mixing namespaces)
16:27:48 [PGrosso]
the first sent of this slide is wrong.
16:27:50 [Ian]
CL: Another class of solution: require the internal DTD subset
16:27:54 [Ian]
16:28:02 [Ian]
CL: A predeclared attribute in the xml namespace, of type ID
16:28:09 [Ian]
16:28:11 [Ian]
<!DOCTYPE foo [
16:28:11 [Ian]
16:28:11 [Ian]
16:28:11 [Ian]
<foo id="x1"/>
16:29:03 [Ian]
CL: To some extent, saying how to solve the problem when you have a DTD or Schema is sidestepping the issue.
16:29:09 [Ian]
CL Questions:
16:29:11 [Ian]
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16:29:32 [mdubinko]
xml:id -- just do it
16:29:46 [Ian]
Al Gilman (AG)
16:30:26 [Ian]
AG: We have an early draft of XML Accessibility Guidelines. These are guidelines for people building XML vocabularies.
16:30:53 [Ian]
AG: It sounds like this needs a defaulting rule. If you have an attribute called "id" it should either be of type ID or, if not, in the document the type should be indicated.
16:31:24 [Ian]
AG: Let simple processors do simple things. Provide info for smart processors to do more.
16:31:34 [mdubinko]
why isn't anyone using the 2nd microphone?
16:31:44 [Ian]
CL: I would characterize that as the "sometimes steal 'id'" model.
16:32:01 [Ian]
AG: If you intend to use it for some other type, then you have to specify it inline; make the exception known.
16:32:06 [Ian]
Richard Tobin (RT)
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16:32:42 [Ian]
RT: There's a common thread in several specs since XML - gradual removal of the internal subset and DTDs generally.
16:32:54 [Ian]
RT: There are three parts of DTDs handled in different ways:
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16:33:02 [Ian]
a) Content model and typing by xml schema
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16:33:10 [Ian]
b) External entities -> XInclude.
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16:33:22 [Ian]
c) No current proposal for replacing character refs and internal entities.
16:33:33 [Ian]
RT: And yet! The question of IDs still arises.
16:33:52 [Ian]
RT: Why isn't the question of IDs covered by one of the three above technologies?
16:34:00 [Ian]
RT: I think IDs are more fundamental than the rest of typing.
16:34:21 [Ian]
RT: I think the xml:id or "steal id" proposals are the right ones.
16:34:28 [Ian]
RT: Take IDs out of typing.
16:34:38 [Ian]
CL: IDREF also needs to be address, I would think.
16:34:42 [Ian]
Steven Pemberton (SP)
16:34:57 [Ian]
SP: The TAG needs a rep from a mobile phone company - cost of downloading another resource.
16:35:16 [Ian]
SP: Good thing about small phones is they hurt less when someone you tell "download' to throws them at you.
16:35:34 [Ian]
SP: We need this solution in a Rec-trcak document.
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16:36:31 [Ian]
CL: TAG expects to summarize points that have been made, but not to do the work.
16:36:40 [Ian]
SP: Please get this done quickly.
16:36:49 [Ian]
Rigo Wenning (RW)
16:37:03 [Ian]
RW: Relationship between ID and privacy.
16:37:31 [Ian]
RW: P3P WG struggled for a while over questions on type ID. Please stick to syntax of ID; if you try to get into semantics, you'll get lost.
16:37:37 [Ian]
[Norm Walsh Presentation]
16:37:47 [Ian]
XML Profiles
16:37:51 [Ian]
16:38:02 [dino]
can norm make his slide text bigger?
16:39:31 [Ian]
16:39:49 [Chris]
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16:39:50 [Ian]
The Problems
16:39:57 [Ian]
16:39:57 [Ian]
16:39:57 [Ian]
Subsets (profiles) are bad for interoperability.
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16:40:13 [Ian]
What to Do?
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16:40:37 [Ian]
16:40:37 [Ian]
The TAG considered the issue and decided that a reasonable compromise might be to define a single subset.
16:41:13 [Ian]
NW: And that is backwards compatible with xml 1.1, language excludes DTD declarations.
16:41:19 [Ian]
Related Issues
16:41:22 [Ian]
16:41:40 [Ian]
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16:41:56 [Ian]
16:41:56 [Ian]
Is the potential for a proliferation of specialized XML subsets a problem that the W3C should attempt to address?
16:41:56 [Ian]
16:41:56 [Ian]
Should the W3C pursue a subset of XML 1.1?
16:41:56 [Ian]
16:41:58 [Ian]
How would this work relate to XML unification/simplification efforts such as Tim Bray's SW draft.
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16:42:16 [Ian]
Skunkworks spec from TB:
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Henry Thompson (HT)
16:42:42 [bwm]
16:42:47 [Ian]
HT: Yes, this is a problem and we should do something about it.
16:42:58 [Ian]
HT: I don't think the notion of subset is the right way to pursue it.
16:43:11 [dino]
bwm, this IRC channel is public, if that is what you ask
16:43:22 [Ian]
HT: The core value of XML is interoperability.
16:43:39 [Ian]
HT: The XML spec designed in two alternative conformance levels.
16:43:41 [Chris]
conformant processing of all content
16:43:52 [Ian]
HT: I think the correct way to approach this problem is to introduce a third conformance level.
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16:43:54 [Chris]
with different results depending on validation or not
16:44:00 [Ian]
HT: You can conform and ignore the DOCTYPE statement.
16:44:04 [Chris]
third conformance level with ignored doctypes
16:44:17 [Ian]
HT: That way all xml processors will still be able to process all xml documents.
16:44:31 [Ian]
HT: E.g., SOAP Processor that conforms to this third class.
16:45:02 [Ian]
RF: The need that I see in SOAP is the ability to tell a fully level compliant XML processor to disable those features.
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16:45:30 [Ian]
RF: It's a different type of problem; not just stds compliance but providing developers with an option to do less.
16:45:34 [Ian]
Arnaud Le Hors (ALH)
16:45:42 [Ian]
ALH: We discussed this issue yesterday in XML Core.
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16:45:53 [Ian]
ALH: I got an action to give a status report on our thoughts
16:46:11 [Ian]
ALH: We have been trying to not jump to any conclusions; we are going through the exercise of defining requirements first.
16:46:30 [Ian]
ALH: I think the TAG's expression of its conclusion was misleading.
16:46:43 [Ian]
ALH: I want to clarify that we are following the process of requirements, then proposing a solution.
16:46:55 [Ian]
ALH: We also invite other WGs to tell us what their requirements are.
16:47:10 [Ian]
ALH: The main incentive for doing work in this area is to avoid the proliferation of subsets.
16:47:21 [Ian]
ALH: One proposal : XML 1.0 without DOCTYPEs.
16:47:32 [Ian]
ALH: As a test, would this meet the needs of the XMLP WG?
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16:48:31 [Ian]
PC: I'm pleased that the WG where this work should be done is addressing this.
16:48:42 [Ian]
DC: The TAG also looked at requirements.
16:48:53 [PGrosso]
[adding to the Ian's last ALH line] "...if we toss doctype decl but not PIs"
16:49:09 [Ian]
16:49:28 [Ian]
MSM: I'm glad that Core is looking at this. It's useful to learn from experience.
16:49:51 [Chris]
or a conformance level that says ignore doctypes and ignore pis - wait, ignoring pis is the current situation .....
16:50:10 [Ian]
MSM: We can learn from XML 1.0 experience. Failure of community to take up stand-alone solution.
16:50:32 [Ian]
MSM: We would not, e.g., have the problem today that implementations assume that the DOCTYPE declaration is an instruction to the processor to validate.
16:50:41 [Ian]
MSM: It's a declarative statement, not imperative.
16:50:59 [Ian]
MSM: If implementers don't provide an option to turn it off, we will always have the problem RF cites.
16:51:26 [Ian]
MSM: We already have three conformance levels in practice (1) validating (2) non-validating but DTD-aware and (3) non-validating and DTD-unaware.
16:51:57 [Ian]
MSM: Whatever we do, the solution probably needs to incorporate a replacement for one important function - binding an instance to a particular document type definition.
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16:52:22 [Ian]
MSM: Maybe a solution is another magic attribute (a la schema location). Need to solve nesting problem.
16:52:35 [Ian]
Paul Cotton (PC)
16:52:44 [Ian]
Namespace Documents
16:53:08 [Ian]
16:53:27 [Ian]
namespaceDocument-8 : What should a "namespace document" look like?
16:53:31 [Ian]
16:53:38 [Ian]
PC: Several TAG participants working on a finding.
16:53:50 [Ian]
PC: We welcom your input.
16:54:12 [Ian]
16:54:42 [Ian]
PC: Disagreement about "#
16:54:42 [Ian]
* Schema languages are ideal for this"
16:55:22 [janet]
Chris might better direct his mutterings to user agent and plugin developers... ;)
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16:57:18 [Ian]
PC: Tim Bray 14 theses
16:57:20 [Ian]
16:58:05 [Ian]
PC: 12. Namespace documents should be human-readable.
16:58:29 [Ian]
PC: Those publishing W3C drafts need to provide human-readable namespace docs
16:58:57 [Ian]
PC: This issue is about "what format for the namespace doc"
16:59:22 [Ian]
PC: TB conclusion conflicts twith TBL's "Namespace documents should not be "schemas".
16:59:29 [Norm]
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16:59:30 [Ian]
Namespace document alternative formats
16:59:32 [Ian]
17:01:42 [Ian]
PC: Proposed alternatives - RDDL, RDF in HTML
17:02:00 [Ian]
PC: TBL desire for namespace to be machine readable without intervening processing.
17:02:30 [Ian]
PC: Question, e.g., of HTML user agent ignoring RDF, and RDF agent ignoring XHTML parts.
17:02:38 [Ian]
PC: TAG held a RDDL challenge to request alternatives.
17:03:06 [Ian]
PC: NW summary of proposals
17:03:14 [Ian]
17:04:04 [Ian]
PC: TAG considered results of challenge and commissioned a draft proposal (PC notes that the commissioned work is not a done deal).
17:04:19 [Ian]
Minimal RDDL
17:04:23 [Ian]
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17:04:49 [Ian]
PC: Uses a few XHTML elements (A) and attributes (nature, purpose)
17:04:59 [Ian]
PC: Did not propose to re-use rel/rev attributes of HTML
17:05:11 [Ian]
PC: Can use other useful <a> attributes like "title" and "longdesc"
17:05:27 [Ian]
PC: Most of these proposals are mutually transformable; the proposals are all very similar.
17:05:41 [Ian]
17:05:57 [Ian]
* Q1: Can namespace documents be human readable and machine processable?
17:05:57 [Ian]
* Q2: What do you think about the Minimal RDDL proposal?
17:05:57 [Ian]
* Q3: Do you think the TAG should progress the Minimal RDDL proposal on the W3C Recommendation track?
17:06:07 [Steven]
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17:07:54 [Ian]
David Cleary (?)
17:08:09 [Ian]
DC: Is the TAG considering deprecating the use of URNs for namespace documents?
17:08:22 [Ian]
[Point made about using URNs when you don't want the URI dereferenced.]
17:08:40 [Ian]
DC: We decided that resources SHOULD have representations available.
17:09:14 [Ian]
RF: You can use a URI that has a derference mechanism already, or use a URI for which you are going to deploy the dereference mechanism yourself.
17:09:27 [Ian]
PC polls room for who has read RDDL proposal: A few people
17:09:46 [Ian]
TBL: You should not use URNs since you SHOULD make available a representation. [RF's comment followed TBL's]
17:10:13 [Ian]
TBL: One reason why this issue has been difficult to resolve - some of the people doing DAML, OWL, etc. are different from folks doing XML processing.
17:10:40 [Ian]
TBL: Sem Web processors can resolve queries by picking up machine-readable defns of terms in real time.
17:10:49 [Ian]
TBL: Getting info about terms is useful.
17:10:52 [Arthur]
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17:11:18 [Ian]
TBL: In RDF, all the metadata can be in the RDF doc itself.
17:11:35 [Ian]
TBL: The need for pointers to different types of resources (e.g., schemas) isn't as great in the sem web application.
17:12:15 [Ian]
TBL: It's not obvious whether the TAG should be trying to make everyone use the same thing; solution might be to fill a couple of particularly large gaps.
17:12:30 [Ian]
SZ: Have you written reqs for what a namespace doc should do?
17:12:39 [geoff_a]
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17:12:40 [Ian]
DC: Yes, 6 proposals that are in discussion.
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17:12:50 [Ian]
SZ: Many thanks to TAG and to audience for asking questions.
17:12:56 [Ian]
17:13:57 [DaveO]
I said 14 requirements, not 6 proposals, are under discussion.
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... sorry, no need for help
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Slides (in one file):
19:06:17 [marie]
Session 4: Integrating our Products
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19:13:07 [DanC]
oooh... ahhh...
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19:15:55 [mdubinko]
Steven uses XForms to perform basic editing of XHTML
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resulting in the reaction DanC mentioned
19:18:25 [ivan]
Novell's demonstration;
19:18:39 [ivan]
a full calculator, only using the actions of xforms plus xpath, no scripting
19:18:43 [Roger]
Pretty small font.
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19:20:33 [marie]
David shows the zipcode resolver example
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then, a phone number filter
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19:21:42 [KevinLiu]
rrsagent where am i?
19:21:52 [RRSAgent]
19:21:56 [ivan]
last example: travel recording example
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19:22:00 [em-lap]
what broswer is being used in this presenation?
19:22:21 [ivan]
em: this is not a browser, it is Novell's standalone xform processor
19:22:31 [em-lap]
thanks ivan
19:23:21 [ivan]
shows the dependencies among field appearances
19:23:39 [mdubinko]
details at
19:23:40 [ivan]
done purely using the dependencies based on the xpath values, no scripting
19:24:19 [ivan]
steve: important point that when you make a submit, you do not replace the whole document
19:24:27 [ivan]
------------- xsmiles demo
19:25:08 [mdubinko]
details for this one at
19:25:10 [ivan]
smil document with svg
19:25:21 [ivan]
(zooming in to some svg part)
19:25:40 [ivan]
it is a reearch browser at HUT, ongoing work
19:25:48 [ivan]
completely open source in java
19:25:55 [DanC]
hmm... TAG issue on mixed namespace docs... I wonder if these xsmiles folks have some advice.
19:26:05 [ivan]
main princpiles: standard compliance, mixing xml docs,
19:26:14 [Dave]
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support xml+ns, xslt, xhtml basic + css, xsl fo
19:26:47 [ivan]
showing browser with xsl fo
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showing also multipage documents
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shows smil example with xforms ('phone ordering system')
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19:28:24 [ivan]
as a research project is to implement the latest of w3c; concentrating a lot on xforms
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eg a bookmark editor
19:29:21 [ivan]
(using list massaging in xforms)
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19:30:36 [ivan]
shows a smil + xform demo to launch audio messages
19:31:07 [ivan]
(submission errors are reported by voice)
19:31:23 [ivan]
using unwritable four letter words....
19:31:55 [ivan]
svg+xforms demo: map of Finland with user interface in xforms
19:33:41 [ivan]
mediaqueries: weather demo : for desktop, it shows as a 3D graph (using X3D), for phone, the outlook is just a small screen with data
19:33:59 [ivan]
the gui is actually a smil document
19:34:16 [ivan]
looking at a digital tv, there is again another smil document
19:34:56 [ivan]
clap, clap, clap...
19:35:44 [ivan]
--------- mathml demo (growing up with mathml)
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19:42:20 [ivan]
------------- Demonstrations
19:42:47 [ivan]
shows an xhtml doc with mathml inside
19:42:58 [ivan]
two halves: presentation markup and content markup, shown on the example
19:43:19 [ivan]
rendered in mozilla; mozilla has a native presentation mathml
19:43:38 [ivan]
client side xsl transforms content markup into presentation markup
19:43:58 [ivan]
same document in ie, looks the same
19:44:10 [ivan]
uses behaviours, and uses math player for design science
19:44:37 [janet]
Jacek, I'll be getting the URI soon
19:44:39 [ivan]
the same stylesheet transforms to html plus the necessary extension mechanism
19:44:54 [maxf]
JacekK, no URI for demo yet, but a similar presentatin is at
19:45:06 [ivan]
shows the xhtml source with a stylesheet at the top
19:45:17 [maxf]
works in Mozilla and IE !
19:45:21 [maxf]
(and Amaya)
19:45:39 [ivan]
in mathml I can use links, shows a link to maple
19:46:13 [maxf]
You can copy and paste the formulas from your browser, and send them directly to your computer algebra system
19:46:21 [ivan]
shows in presentation markup the formula is copy pastes to maple, the copy paste is in mathml
19:46:46 [ivan]
it could be a mathematical service, the point is that this is not an image
19:47:05 [ivan]
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19:53:43 [ivan]
clap clap clap....
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19:54:12 [ivan]
--------- question time
19:54:36 [ivan]
daniel austin (?)
19:54:45 [simonSNST]
that is correct.
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19:55:00 [ivan]
what strikes me is the commonalities of the problems, how do we make documents from multiple namespaces
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19:55:20 [ivan]
has w3c the intention to solve this problem once and for all, rather than in pieces
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19:55:45 [ivan]
Stephen: is probably a problem for the tag
19:55:58 [ivan]
danc: you guys know more of this that the tag does
19:56:22 [KevinLiu]
19:56:42 [ivan]
the tag had the issue of mixing namespaces, so there is the work done in the mean time, it is good that part of this work is done
19:56:56 [ivan]
do you see a solution from your perspective
19:57:10 [ivan]
Stephen: I believe it is doable, I do not have a clear picture
19:57:23 [ivan]
philippe hoschka: to respond to austin's question
19:57:50 [ivan]
there was a task force to look at that issue, right now there is a new interest for that, Ph le Hegaret is looking for people working on this
19:58:02 [RalphS]
Component Extension Framework
19:58:09 [maxf`]
Component Extensions (aka Plug-in API)
19:58:09 [ivan]
if you are interested in that talk to him or to me, there is a chance that we will address the issue
19:58:27 [maxf`]
there is a requirements document at
19:58:28 [marie]
steve zilles
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19:59:18 [DanC]
tag issue on mixed namespace docs, which got exploded into 3 smaller bits...
19:59:19 [marie]
sz: there is now more consciousness of what the pbs really are
19:59:26 [marie]
tv raman
19:59:59 [ivan]
there is also a set of fundamental xml-ish format, like what steven mentioned
20:00:04 [ivan]
the id problem
20:00:19 [ivan]
these are purely syntax, can be solved independently
20:01:09 [ivan]
chris lilley: responding to daniel's point, the problem is when people create part of document, not the whole thing
20:01:11 [DanC]
hmm... interesting point about "those bits can only go in once, so can't be used in XForms". "self-similar syntax" really does have teeth.
20:02:04 [ivan]
ann basetti: one of the problems, why is it all these wonderful work has not been implemented at large
20:02:13 [ivan]
we need these things in products
20:02:24 [ivan]
it takes a loooong time to get it into products
20:02:39 [ht]
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20:03:27 [ivan]
the same thing that applies to mathml in svg is the same when you encrypt something which you xslt and you put in something else
20:03:41 [ivan]
should we do the xinclude processing, then the encryption, does this mess up something
20:03:56 [ivan]
the model must be a top down one, elaborating top down
20:04:20 [sandro]
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20:04:27 [ivan]
give up, too fast to for me...
20:04:43 [ivan]
you asked whether w3c would solve it: you ARE w3c,
20:05:08 [RalphS]
TimBL: don't think in terms of defining a document, rather define elements
20:05:28 [ivan]
tobin, edinburgh:
20:05:46 [sandro]
TimBL: You wont be able to change the meaning of your cousin elements.
20:05:47 [ivan]
mime to documents, some people said as it was the same as multinamespace document
20:06:04 [ivan]
different people want to define theirown document
20:06:33 [ivan]
the solution the entity is not to tie to the namespace, it is not a one-to-one correpondence
20:07:10 [ivan]
secondly: tim describes a top down processing model
20:07:33 [ivan]
there are lots of different thing one can do with the same document, I want to separate the processing of the document from the document itself
20:08:07 [Ian]
DC: "The future is longer than the past."
20:08:10 [ivan]
danc: lots of time wg do sometimes first something which is fast but broken
20:08:21 [ivan]
keep the good the fight, future is longer than the past
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20:09:01 [marie]
Session 5: W3C Glossary: Schema and Tools for Interoperability and Common Understanding
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Presenter 1: Wendy Chisholm (WC) from W3C
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Panel: Lofton Henderson (QA), Hugo Haas (WS), Norm Walsh (XMLSpec), Olivier THeraux (QA)
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20:15:33 [Tantek]
URL for slides?
20:15:43 [dj-scribe]
not available as yet
20:16:00 [dj-scribe]
nor these ones
20:16:10 [RRSAgent]
20:16:41 [dj-scribe]
Presenter 2: Lofton Henderson (QA)
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20:17:13 [RSSAgent]
the question is not to know where you are but where you go
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20:18:03 [dj-scribe]
no slides
20:18:07 [dj-scribe]
20:18:12 [DanC]
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20:18:24 [dj-scribe]
which is a shame, given than there are complaints about projected text size
20:18:35 [DanC]
pointer to WAI glossary? QA glossary?
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20:18:50 [dom] for QA glossary
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20:18:59 [olivier]
20:19:12 [olivier]
I think those are his slides
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can someone near lofton get him to enlarge his slides? completely unreadable from the back -- and mostly inaudible as well
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20:19:43 [DanC]
hmm... some of these terms are parameterized... e.g. "Conforming Document" --
20:19:43 [chaalsBOS]
... is WAI Glossary
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20:21:38 [DanC]
hmm... I much prefer glossaries that refer to the discussion of the term in context; i.e. more of an index.
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20:22:17 [dj-scribe]
Presenter 3: Hugo Hass (Web Services)
20:22:59 [dj-scribe]
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ie. aas not ass :)
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20:25:21 [JosD_]
DanC, any example?
20:25:27 [henri]
slides are
20:26:45 [henri]
html version
20:26:51 [dj-scribe]
Presenter 4: Norm Walsh (XML Spec)
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20:30:02 [dj-scribe]
Presenter 5: Olivier Theraux (QA Glossary Tools)
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Norm's slides are at
20:31:41 [henri]
olivier's slides :
20:31:59 [henri]
html version :
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20:40:49 [dj-scribe]
-------- Q&A --------
20:40:56 [DanC]
stay tuned... to what/where?
20:41:22 [dj-scribe]
Charles McN (W3C)
20:41:30 [dom]
the glossary project page
20:41:34 [dom]
linked from the slides
20:41:35 [dj-scribe]
oops representing Sidar at the mic.
20:42:04 [dj-scribe]
CMN: Are you looking at going over existing specs? That's what we are doing for translations of terms.
20:42:11 [DanC]
ah... glossary project home.
20:42:21 [reagle]
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20:42:42 [DanC]
seems to be in weblog form... is an RSS feed available?
20:43:01 [dj-scribe]
OT: THe ultimate goal is that we provide tools. Not just a single glossary.
20:43:11 [dj-scribe]
Roger Cutler (Chev-Tex)
20:43:25 [dj-scribe]
RC: I've been helping HH on the WS glossary.
20:43:43 [dj-scribe]
RC: I disagree that a glossary arch with levels will scale.
20:44:01 [dj-scribe]
RC: You keep using "agent" as an example - that is a case that will work.
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20:44:19 [dj-scribe]
RC: many other terms won't work.
20:44:36 [dj-scribe]
RC: If you use terms with a different mindset you are screwed.
20:44:43 [DanC]
more glossary fodder:
20:44:49 [dj-scribe]
WC: We are not limiting the number of definitions.
20:44:55 [dj-scribe]
Arnaud le Hors (IBM)
20:45:07 [dj-scribe]
ALH: I'm puzzled how the W3C staff address issues.
20:45:24 [dj-scribe]
ALH: Some of these things are in XML form, clearly marked.
20:45:42 [dj-scribe]
ALH: Don't ignore the XML that is already there.
20:45:56 [dj-scribe]
OT: I focussed on HTML because it is hard to extract.
20:46:04 [dj-scribe]
OT: Some people don't want to use XML Spec.
20:46:16 [dj-scribe]
OT: tool must be flexible
20:46:34 [dj-scribe]
ALH: You should lobby more people to use XML Spec
20:46:59 [dj-scribe]
Martin, a disembodied voice, says some terms in XML spec are not marked up.
20:47:12 [dj-scribe]
Norm Walsh: people can use bad markup anywhere
20:47:20 [dj-scribe]
Tantek Celik (Microsoft)
20:47:59 [dj-scribe]
TC: <term> and <termdef> are new, why aren't we using <dl> <dd> <dt>?
20:48:19 [dj-scribe]
NW: XML Spec has more precise semantics.
20:48:22 [RylaDog]
and <dfn>
20:48:22 [PGrosso]
I think the english word "term" predates HTML.
20:48:32 [mitrepaul]
rrsagent, where am I?
20:48:32 [RRSAgent]
20:48:33 [DanC]
(go TC! that was my question to spec-prod years ago. or to SGML-ERB or something. yes, seems gratuitous to me too.)
20:48:59 [dj-scribe]
OT: I read HTML 4.01 - it's less than clear. It isn't pushy about this. Freedom in use of <dl>
20:49:15 [dj-scribe]
20:49:21 [PGrosso]
I thought XML was extensible--why can't someone develop a DTD that uses terms in their own language like English instead of html-eze!
20:49:21 [dj-scribe]
20:51:19 [libby]
so, as a little experiment, would anyone like to try this little rdf toy?
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join #svg
21:06:29 [simon-scr]
boohoo hoo
21:07:01 [Zarella]
*so do we have to do what simon says?
21:07:16 [simon-scr]
that is correct.
21:07:27 [Zarella]
boohoo hoo
21:08:46 [simon-scr]
Session 6: One Web or Four? -----------------------------
21:09:07 [simon-scr]
21:09:11 [simon-scr]
Session 6: One Web or Four?
21:09:16 [simon-scr]
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21:17:14 [simon-scr]
stuart williams introduces.
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web is growing, moving in many different directions. how to maintain coherence.
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outside w3c, activities on the grid.
21:17:58 [simon-scr]
each speaker will speak about 10 minutes.
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21:18:48 [simon-scr]
Panelists (cont'd): Brian McBride, Co-Chair, RDF Core WG; on the Semantic Web
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21:19:00 [simon-scr]
Moderator: Stuart Williams, TAG
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steven's slides:
21:20:00 [simon-scr]
noah's slides:
21:20:13 [simon-scr]
brian's slides:
21:20:14 [PStickler]
Question for panel: Is a description of a resource a representation of that resource?
21:20:18 [simon-scr]
21:20:27 [simon-scr]
Steven - One web or four
21:20:29 [simon-scr]
21:20:52 [simon-scr]
current slide set:
21:21:11 [simon-scr]
concern today with human web, not the humans here, though.
21:21:46 [simon-scr]
reason HTML is successful is it is easy to use.
21:21:54 [simon-scr]
granma can make a web site.
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21:22:09 [simon-scr]
1991, a grand ol' age.
21:22:21 [simon-scr]
now power packed pcs, etc.
21:22:44 [simon-scr]
since then, xml has evolved.
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21:23:14 [simon-scr]
an html doc 2001 is bigger, but computer bigger, so no sweat.
21:24:07 [simon-scr]
by 2010, all using euro. woohoo.
21:24:11 [mdubinko]
no sweat for the computer, but what about the user?
21:24:48 [simon-scr]
why not leave to authoring tools?
21:25:13 [simon-scr]
vi rules!
21:25:26 [amy]
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21:25:51 [DanC]
if you count heads, I'm pretty sure, to several orders of magnitude, all authors use frontpage
21:26:12 [simon-scr]
conclusion: computers are getting more powerful, people aren't.
21:26:32 [steve]
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21:26:36 [simon-scr]
roy fielding, speaking on the 'Boring' web.
21:26:44 [simon-scr]
21:26:49 [simon-scr]
Roy Fielding
21:26:51 [simon-scr]
21:26:53 [mitrepaul]
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21:26:56 [RRSAgent]
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21:27:36 [simon-scr]
is there a url for these slides?
21:27:39 [mnot]
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21:28:10 [simon-scr]
high-level requirements.
21:28:23 [simon-scr]
low entry-barrier.
21:28:32 [DanC]
"The only time you hear about HTTP is when something goes wrong." -- RoyF
21:28:33 [slh]
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21:28:40 [simon-scr]
multiple organizational bounsaries.
21:28:53 [ddahl]
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21:28:54 [simon-scr]
distributed hypermedia system.
21:29:05 [simon-scr]
MSM, thanks.
21:29:20 [simon-scr]
we need to plan for gradual fragmented change.
21:29:38 [simon-scr]
it doesn't cahnge that much, like html.
21:30:02 [simon-scr]
distributed hypermedia system.
21:30:13 [simon-scr]
good for large data xfers.
21:30:19 [olivier]
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21:30:25 [simon-scr]
sensitive to user-perceived latency
21:30:44 [Roland]
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21:30:46 [simon-scr]
capable of disconnected ... (missed last word).
21:30:53 [Ian]
21:30:59 [simon-scr]
21:31:01 [simon-scr]
Ina, thanks.
21:31:06 [simon-scr]
21:31:17 [simon-scr]
REST Architectural style
21:31:49 [Steven]
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21:31:53 [simon-scr]
an attempt to come up with a rationale for showing/telling folks how their software sucks.
21:32:11 [simon-scr]
what is it you are trying to achieve with your product on the web?
21:32:44 [simon-scr]
REST Architectural style is the basis for how Roy desigened HTTP 1.1 extensions, and for defense of them.
21:33:07 [simon-scr]
REST STyle Derivation Graph (no ref).
21:33:16 [janet]
simon, will have uris in a sec
21:33:21 [simon-scr]
client-sever paradigm.
21:33:28 [simon-scr]
janet, dake.
21:33:29 [Steven]
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21:33:32 [simon-scr]
21:33:43 [simon-scr]
sever, hmm...
21:33:51 [simon-scr]
21:33:51 [Ian]
Representational State Transfer (REST)
21:33:55 [Ian]
21:34:04 [RRSAgent]
21:34:06 [simon-scr]
Ian, thanks bud.
21:34:26 [simon-scr]
REST Process View graph.
21:34:37 [simon-scr]
REST Uniform interface.
21:34:52 [simon-scr]
Pictures are not sufficient.
21:34:57 [timbl__]
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21:35:04 [simon-scr]
five primary interface constraints.
21:35:09 [Norm]
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21:35:23 [simon-scr]
hard to keep without refs.
21:35:43 [simon-scr]
noted on slides.
21:35:48 [simon-scr]
panel questions.
21:35:57 [simon-scr]
how many webs should there be?
21:36:25 [ted]
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21:36:33 [simon-scr]
21:36:47 [simon-scr]
noah mendelsohn
21:36:48 [simon-scr]
21:37:15 [simon-scr]
21:37:25 [simon-scr]
noah has a sense of there being more than one web.
21:37:30 [simon-scr]
this is how he thinks about it.
21:37:36 [Olin_Dan]
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21:37:43 [simon-scr]
at core we have a web of names.
21:37:48 [henri]
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21:37:49 [simon-scr]
named by a URI.
21:37:55 [frankmcca]
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21:38:02 [simon-scr]
in this, there is a web of widely deployed shcemes.
21:38:15 [simon-scr]
de facto, it is a web of things you can minipulate.
21:38:22 [simon-scr]
roy has given us a model.
21:38:34 [simon-scr]
RESTful web.
21:38:54 [simon-scr]
http/https are protocols of REST.
21:39:03 [simon-scr]
core protocols of web as deployed.
21:39:37 [simon-scr]
also web of widely deployed media types.
21:39:43 [DanC]
cool picture. Ian, this would be a great "story" for the arch doc intro, no/
21:39:45 [ndw]
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21:39:45 [DanC]
21:40:22 [Ian]
I'll check it out with Noha.
21:40:24 [Ian]
21:41:09 [simon-scr]
technology comparison.
21:41:18 [simon-scr]
on browseable web, things are uris.
21:41:23 [dougb]
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21:41:29 [simon-scr]
folks don't use uris aggresively enough.
21:41:43 [simon-scr]
for example, you don't see uris for every stock quote.
21:42:23 [simon-scr]
web services need to run over more than http.
21:42:42 [simon-scr]
furthermore, history that SOAP has misued HTTP.
21:43:24 [simon-scr]
this slide -
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21:44:03 [RalphS]
Noah: "the option is now there [in SOAP 1.2] to do things correctly"
21:44:18 [simon-scr]
noah claims, you cannot rely on people to know if they got the right thing.
21:45:00 [simon-scr]
slide -
21:45:12 [Tantek]
amazing. is there an HTML version of this presentation where the text is in markup instead of being trapped in a .gif?
21:45:28 [JosD_]
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21:45:31 [simon-scr]
not that i am aware of :^(
21:46:08 [janet]
hi, tantek
21:46:28 [janet]
slides currently are in this format - generated from Freehand
21:46:58 [bwm]
slides -
21:47:03 [simon-scr]
Conclusions covered on
21:47:14 [simon-scr]
21:47:14 [janet]
Slides for Roy's presentation now available:
21:47:24 [simon-scr]
21:47:27 [simon-scr]
Brian McBride, Co-Chair, RDF Core WG; on the Semantic Web
21:47:29 [simon-scr]
21:47:43 [simon-scr]
21:47:52 [geoff_a]
/msg frankmcca so whaddya think of Noah's talk?
21:48:05 [timbl__]
specifcially that slide was mostly w3cplenaryhowmanywebs16.gif
21:48:11 [simon-scr]
how many webs? ONE - but it is multifaceted and its architecture has structure
21:48:24 [simon-scr]
What does sWeb need from web architecture?
21:48:32 [simon-scr]
21:48:45 [simon-scr]
21:48:50 [simon-scr]
21:48:56 [AlanK]
timbl, please see private message
21:48:56 [simon-scr]
21:49:28 [simon-scr]
Structure the architecture -
21:50:23 [simon-scr]
Naming and Retrievability
21:50:29 [simon-scr]
21:50:39 [simon-scr]
Naming - sWeb needs to name things other than web resources
21:50:47 [simon-scr]
with some precision - e.g. a car and a picture of a car are not the same thing
21:51:03 [simon-scr]
Retrievability - sWeb needs to be able to retrieve information associated with a name
21:51:09 [simon-scr]
e.g. RDF Vocabulary definitions, OWL ontologies
21:51:36 [simon-scr]
For example...
21:51:42 [simon-scr]
21:52:46 [DanC]
hmm... no # in the URI of the 'non document' issues list.
21:52:50 [simon-scr]
discussion of specific example.
21:53:32 [DanC]
ah... there is a # in the 2nd option on this slide.
21:53:33 [simon-scr]
hope id to have last call comments generated by software agents.
21:53:38 [simon-scr]
21:53:49 [Christoph]
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21:53:52 [timbl__]
In fact the web server doesn't say "that is not a document, look at Overview", it just returns the contents of Overview, n'est-ce pas?
21:53:55 [chaalsBOS]
s/hope/vision of hell/
21:53:59 [DanC]
"One of my versions of hell is software generating last call comments." -- bwm
21:54:11 [dom]
timbl__, it doesn't, but that's a bug in Apache
21:54:15 [simon-scr]
got it. thanks for the correction.
21:54:21 [dom]
it should set the content-location: header to Overview.html
21:54:41 [simon-scr]
Precision -
21:54:47 [dom]
(which is not exactly saying "this is not a document" either, but closer)
21:54:59 [simon-scr]
sWeb is building formal models - needs firm foundations to build on
21:55:10 [simon-scr]
[[A resource can be anything that has identity.]]
21:55:13 [MJDuerst]
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21:55:24 [simon-scr]
RFC 2396
21:55:34 [simon-scr]
[[More precisely, a resource R is a temporally varying membership function M R (t), which for time t maps to a set of entities, or values, which are equivalent.]]
21:55:40 [simon-scr]
from roy's thesis.
21:56:07 [encre]
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21:56:59 [simon-scr]
21:57:04 [simon-scr]
stuart williams
21:57:07 [simon-scr]
21:57:13 [simon-scr]
21:57:25 [simon-scr]
21:57:41 [simon-scr]
21:57:48 [simon-scr]
roy comments.
21:57:54 [simon-scr]
21:58:20 [luu]
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21:58:24 [simon-scr]
there are some things that are obviously core, or you don't have a web. you can argue how many tou can squeeze in.
21:58:43 [simon-scr]
each of you has shown what a web is, while leaving something out that was essetial to someone else.
21:59:01 [Gottfried]
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21:59:09 [simon-scr]
it is possible for many of us to spend a good part of our careers, working on something that someone else has solved using a different method.
21:59:27 [simon-scr]
(all jrobie comments abbove, as noted)
21:59:55 [rigo]
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22:00:07 [simon-scr]
i think instead of arguing who gets to be in the middle, we have to assume differen folks use different tools.
22:00:18 [mgylling]
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22:00:28 [simon-scr]
patrick (?) -
22:00:43 [simon-scr]
is a desrciption of a resource a valid description of the resorce?
22:00:55 [simon-scr]
if it is, (can someone fill in?)
22:01:01 [ivan]
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22:01:23 [dbooth]
then the resource is a description of a resource
22:02:00 [RalphS]
RoyF: " if you have a description of a resource that is the resource, then the resource is a description of a resource"
22:02:32 [simon-scr]
RF: there are huge discussions on www-tag.
22:02:43 [janet]
sw folks, please help
22:02:53 [rigo]
22:02:58 [simon-scr]
RF: folks assume there is a framework that is consistent.
22:03:03 [RalphS]
RoyF: if you have a picture of a car then of course people would consider that different from the car
22:03:24 [timbl__]
AV, please cut Roy's mike ;-)
22:03:25 [simon-scr]
jack (?)
22:03:25 [AlanK]
Technical description of discussion: Resources are cars.
22:03:39 [ndw]
timbl__: lol
22:04:01 [mdubinko]
as are descriptions of discussions :-)
22:04:12 [simon-scr]
are web services part of the www, or is the www part of the ws world, or an application thereof?
22:04:18 [mdubinko]
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22:04:33 [simon-scr]
how about implementing http over soap and calling it shttp?
22:04:40 [simon-scr]
(above was jack)
22:05:01 [janet]
Jacek Kopecski (sp), Systinet
22:05:04 [RylaDog]
22:05:05 [simon-scr]
NM: we engineered soap to be more RESTful...
22:05:11 [simon-scr]
janet, thanks.
22:05:15 [janet]
22:06:02 [simon-scr]
NM: the fact that our envelopes use uris...
22:06:15 [simon-scr]
NH: gives us better use (?) of them.
22:07:29 [simon-scr]
RF: most of his criticisms over the years were of SOAP 1.1
22:08:03 [simon-scr]
pat hayes...
22:08:09 [janet]
Pat Hayes, U of west FLa
22:08:15 [janet]
(Web Ont WG)
22:08:19 [simon-scr]
PH: there are no names on the web at all. just links.
22:08:46 [simon-scr]
there is a huge hole in this story.
22:08:56 [simon-scr]
PH: there are no protocols for naming things.
22:08:59 [janet]
sorry, jacek, for mangling your last name
22:09:03 [marie]
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22:09:12 [simon-scr]
PH: we have to invent ad hoc ways of naming things.
22:09:18 [simon-scr]
PH: mass delusion.
22:09:24 [simon-scr]
22:09:40 [ndw]
delusion he said
22:09:48 [simon-scr]
BSM: i think you overstate your case.
22:09:52 [RylaDog]
I heard illusion
22:10:01 [mimasa]
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22:10:10 [simon-scr]
the names are not an illusion, but the bing between the object and the name (something).
22:10:20 [simon-scr]
22:10:54 [timbl__]
Indeed one names thinhe alluded to an illusion but was deluded.
22:11:25 [timbl__]
Pat alluded to an illusion but was deluded.
22:11:29 [amy]
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22:11:36 [Olin_Dan]
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22:11:38 [simon-scr]
i missed the name of this gentleman.
22:11:42 [wendy]
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22:11:47 [libby]
jeremy carroll
22:11:51 [janet]
22:11:57 [ndw]
Jeremy Carrol from HP
22:12:00 [simon-scr]
libby, thanks.
22:12:17 [simon-scr]
NM: in priciple it is nice to have a truly uniform naming system.
22:12:26 [ht]
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22:12:55 [simon-scr]
NM: then you get to the fact of the engineering matter.
22:13:05 [Nobu]
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22:15:16 [simon-scr]
RF: things are coming together vs. falling apart.
22:15:25 [simon-scr]
David Orchard, BEA.
22:15:36 [Steven]
For the record: I have nothing against URIs, nor against typing them
22:16:15 [simon-scr]
DO: what different constraints than REST are being applied...
22:16:19 [Norm]
22:16:29 [ht]
Service-Oriented Architectures
22:16:39 [Norm]
22:16:48 [simon-scr]
DO: should W3C, in particualr TAg, be in the business of documenting one set of constraints?
22:17:10 [simon-scr]
DO: or describing overlap?
22:17:23 [simon-scr]
NM: i would appreciate form the TAG some calrity.
22:17:52 [simon-scr]
NM: i do not believe everything has to be RESTful. i would like to see the TAG weigh in on this.
22:18:28 [simon-scr]
NM: looking at scenarios of steaming vidoe, etc., REST is good.
22:18:48 [simon-scr]
22:18:54 [simon-scr]
22:20:02 [simon-scr]
RF: the goal of REST is not to tell folks the extent of the web.
22:20:16 [DanC]
p2p is tricky... it's clearly too important to ignore, but I haven't found time to play with it enough to answer the questions Noah just riffed about.
22:20:21 [simon-scr]
(what was the tail end of that comment?)
22:20:58 [simon-scr]
RF: if there are aspects of REST that don't fulfill web services, that's ok.
22:21:11 [Norm]
Noah said he'd like to have URIs for the P2P resources, but they involve an engineering architecture that's not obviously like http. Among other things.
22:21:13 [DanC]
NM: how about p2p and isochronous stuff? (voice/video)? is that RESTful? should it use HTTP?
22:22:04 [simon-scr]
RF: but you have to go back and decide (something).
22:22:22 [AK-Scribe]
Last session: Ian Jacobs chair
22:22:37 [AK-Scribe]
IJ: Let's do breathing exercises.
22:22:48 [AK-Scribe]
Is the Integer 1 a Resource?
22:23:11 [AK-Scribe]
Panelists: TimBL, SteveB
22:23:17 [RylaDog]
not true
22:23:23 [mdubinko]
22:23:56 [AK-Scribe]
IJ proposes various topics
22:24:23 [Norm]
No, mdubinko, that's 404 not 1 :-)
22:24:26 [AK-Scribe]
Henry Thompson: About 15 people had a BOF on Linking.
22:24:47 [Steven]
20 more like
22:24:58 [AK-Scribe]
... The Liking WG expired at end of 2002. There are structural and technical issues on moving forward about talking about links.
22:24:58 [dbooth]
Tech Plenary feedback form:
22:25:25 [AK-Scribe]
The BOF agreed about some procedural issues. This will be sent to some list soon.
22:25:47 [DanC]
meanwhile, will (likely) reach henry (re linking).
22:25:53 [PStickler]
val:( (c.f.
22:26:04 [AK-Scribe]
The AB is dealing with Normative Errata. I think they've (finally) done a good job.
22:26:20 [AK-Scribe]
The new version of XML schema is trying out this new process.
22:26:35 [AK-Scribe]
Frank McCabe
22:26:49 [AK-Scribe]
BOF on Semantic Web Services. About 20 people.
22:26:59 [amy]
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22:27:00 [PStickler]
"1"^^<> denotes the integer 1, and RDF says it's a resource ;-)
22:27:07 [DanC]
hmm... PStickler, I'd expect to find compare/contrast with data: in draft-pstickler-val. I don't see any.
22:27:16 [AK-Scribe]
Topics: What is meant by SW Services, and what to do about them.
22:27:27 [AK-Scribe]
Thinking of starting an IG
22:27:54 [AK-Scribe]
There will be a mailing list [scribe didn't get the name]
22:28:16 [AK-Scribe]
The semantic web also requires services, such as ontology services.
22:28:26 [PStickler]
val: is similar to data: but more specialized
22:28:42 [DanC]
[list name www-ws, perhaps?]
22:28:47 [AK-Scribe]
There is a class of services which have publicly understood semantics
22:28:59 [AK-Scribe]
Encourage people to participate
22:29:23 [AK-Scribe]
Martin Duerst: report on BOF on ??? (couldn't understand)
22:29:28 [DanC]
who was the guy who spoke about semantic web services?
22:29:39 [DanC]
??? = glyph variants, I think.
22:29:42 [MSM]
22:29:45 [AK-Scribe]
Frank McCabe
22:29:57 [MSM]
Gaiji not the same as glyph variants
22:30:13 [RylaDog]
22:30:17 [marie]
22:30:20 [AK-Scribe]
Martin: w3c-char-glyph
22:30:24 [DanC]
22:30:32 [timbl__]
LX ?
22:30:50 [AK-Scribe]
David Marston, IBM, XSLT and Xpath conformance testing
22:30:54 [MSM]
Kanji which are new / unconventional / new variants of existing glyphs (so glyph variants aren't irrelevant)
22:30:56 [AK-Scribe]
in coord with OASIS
22:31:07 [AK-Scribe]
we're ready to show the test organization to the world
22:31:21 [AK-Scribe]
WIll be a good example of the QAWG test guideines
22:31:31 [AK-Scribe]
22:31:46 [MJDuerst]
gaiji subsumes glyph variants and non-encoded characters
22:32:00 [AK-Scribe]
Paul Cotton: As a TAG member, I notice only a few people on www-tag list.
22:32:27 [AK-Scribe]
When mixed namespace docs were being discussed, it was pointed out as an important problem.
22:32:32 [MJDuerst]
but you could say that gaiji is a particular solution for these issues
22:32:41 [AK-Scribe]
How are we going to get those people engaged (if they aren't on the list)
22:33:11 [AK-Scribe]
I'd like to hear suggestions from the audience how the TAG is supposed to learn their views on the issues.
22:33:38 [DanC]
list per issue... ping has a tool that implemented that cheaply... nosylists or some such...
22:33:41 [AK-Scribe]
Should the TAG have some other mechanism to garner input?
22:33:57 [PGrosso]
The TAG should put a special filter on www-tag that doesn't accept any more than 2 postings per day by the same person.
22:34:05 [AK-Scribe]
TimBL: The guy who asked this question caught me at coffee break.
22:34:19 [MJDuerst]
22:34:32 [AK-Scribe]
There are some people who expected it to be solved in another context (didn't get).
22:34:33 [MJDuerst]
(except for the TAG members, of course)
22:34:42 [RalphS]
22:34:48 [AK-Scribe]
The Tech plenary is a good place to bring these things up
22:35:04 [RylaDog]
XML Processing something...
22:35:06 [AK-Scribe]
The TAG doesn't solve all the problems, we try to pass them off.
22:35:12 [maxf]
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22:35:21 [PStickler]
The key difference between val: and data: is that data: would force all datatypes to be defined as content types whereas val: URIs are just RDF typed literals in URI form
22:35:30 [AK-Scribe]
Janet Daly: Paul Grosso on IRC suggests limiting the number of posts per day on www-tag
22:35:38 [DanC]
PStickler, pls say that in your draft.
22:36:10 [AK-Scribe]
Arnaud Lehors: I don't think that your care of the importance of a problem implies you want to work on solving it
22:36:11 [PStickler]
The draft has expired. I guess I should re-publish it, with inclusion of the comparison with data:
22:36:12 [JacekK]
outside of AC meetings, the tag list is OK, but in the AC meeting a bit of advertisement for the TAG issues would be helpful. We heard of three issues, we might have heard in less detail of more issues, and maybe early in the morning
22:36:35 [gerald]
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22:37:02 [simonSNST]
can someone mention to folks to turn theirs phones to vibrate or something?
22:37:04 [AK-Scribe]
Al Gilman: Once an issue is accepted, the topic should be moved to a list which is archived, but not distributed
22:37:23 [Norm]
Not a list, but a wiki or other web forum thing.
22:37:40 [DanC]
(I tried launching a TAG wiki early on. it died due a combination of technical and social factors)
22:37:41 [AK-Scribe]
Marty Bingham: I'm concerned that working within WAI, we've been successful with outreach. (?)
22:38:03 [DanC]
Harvy Bingham
22:38:13 [AK-Scribe]
EricP: Report on RDF-Query and RuleML BOF... We had the longest running BOF.
22:38:38 [AK-Scribe]
We talked a lot about abstractions, etc, etc,. We started coming up with a model.
22:39:12 [AK-Scribe]
The problem is that there are RDF recommendations, but now how do you use it? Lots of query languages and protocols.
22:39:17 [AK-Scribe]
Where is the commonality.
22:39:37 [AK-Scribe]
Susan Lesch: Markup language tokens BOF (?)
22:40:17 [AK-Scribe]
We covered Classes, links, etc, etc. We came up 3 or 4 projects: Help for new/all editors. Document production tools.
22:40:35 [AK-Scribe]
Steven Pemberton: RDF... Who wants to write or read that stuff? (applause)
22:41:16 [DanC]
22:41:22 [AK-Scribe]
TimBL: There are a lot of use cases for RDF queries
22:41:29 [simonSNST]
poor scribe.
22:41:39 [JacekK]
On TAG: maybe the TAG could use bugzilla for issue tracking? (Bugzilla was suggested in the WS-Desc WG)
22:41:42 [AK-Scribe]
But they're not in XML, which is why they're easy.
22:41:50 [DanC]
<- query part of semweb arch meeting
22:41:59 [karl-QA]
"""The first time I tried the RDFLib Python libraries, the lightbulb finally flashed on."""
22:41:59 [libby] alberto and andy;'s document
22:42:06 [karl-QA]
22:42:14 [AK-Scribe]
Al Gilman: XAG makes radical claim is that the most useful doc is one readable both by people and machines.
22:42:51 [AK-Scribe]
We have in "accessibilty" some information which some users will process and others won't.
22:43:09 [AK-Scribe]
There's a strong appeal that you have and document a model.
22:43:36 [AK-Scribe]
There's not good documentation of what works and doesn't work.
22:44:15 [AK-Scribe]
Speculate we want to do lots of prototyping in RDF along the way
22:44:43 [frankmcca]
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22:45:03 [AK-Scribe]
[scribe loses thread of this exposition]
22:46:28 [AK-Scribe]
Brian McBride, HP Labs: There was an occasion some months ago that Ian Horowitz said "no one can write this stuff (RDF-XML)"
22:46:37 [AK-Scribe]
I did it in the back of the room.
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22:46:51 [AK-Scribe]
RDF is very elegant. Don't confuse it with the XML syntax
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22:47:26 [AK-Scribe]
Roger Cutler: Al Gilman said "the core of the web is interaction between an individual and a machine"
22:47:35 [AK-Scribe]
I think that's the web of yesterday.
22:47:46 [Steven]
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22:48:09 [Norm]
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22:48:19 [AK-Scribe]
The new metaphor is business to business interaction. The W3C is not in the leadership position. I think it's OASIS
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22:48:59 [AK-Scribe]
Pat Hayes: The DAML is encoded in RDF-XML. There are 6 million lines of code.
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22:49:24 [AK-Scribe]
Who wants to write this stuff? Who wants to write XML? We do it because it's useful.
22:49:45 [PGrosso]
he said "who wants to write HTML"
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22:50:00 [AK-Scribe]
Hakon Lie: Lots of people are using Emacs. It can be written beautifully.
22:50:21 [AK-Scribe]
I think a goal for W3C would be to reuse elements and attributes without using namespaces.
22:50:33 [Steven]
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22:50:37 [AK-Scribe]
IJ: Tantek suggested there be a W3C namespace
22:51:12 [AK-Scribe]
TimBL: I think it's a perfectly reasonable idea.
22:51:27 [DanC]
in "It can be written beautifully." Hakon was talking about HTML.
22:51:50 [AK-Scribe]
[scribe welcomes all corrections]
22:51:59 [AK-Scribe]
Timbl: Just propose a WG
22:52:17 [AK-Scribe]
Steve Bratt: Let's applaud Ian.
22:53:08 [AK-Scribe]
Thanks to Amy Van der Heil, Josh Friel, Saeko Takeuchi, Marisol Diaz,...
22:53:10 [RylaDog]
I really would like to respond to the W3C vs OASIS comment...........
22:53:16 [AK-Scribe]
Thanks to systems team
22:53:23 [AK-Scribe]
thanks to scribes
22:53:38 [AK-Scribe]
Amy: Thanks to Ralph!
22:54:00 [AK-Scribe]
Steve: Thanks to Program Committee
22:54:17 [dbooth]
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22:54:52 [AK-Scribe]
Steve: Fill out the Survey
22:54:57 [dbooth]
Survey again is at
22:55:10 [Steven]
Reception now?
22:55:17 [JacekK]
22:55:27 [AK-Scribe]
Reception at 7 PM
22:55:31 [karl-QA]
Danc: It's avery good idea. If you want help as me for very BETA dumb tester
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22:55:35 [karl-QA]
I volunteer
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23:03:40 [jim]
this is a test
23:03:41 [ddahl]
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23:13:09 [marie]
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23:34:22 [Tantek]
anybody else notice that the diagram on this slide is missing CSS?
23:38:21 [Tantek]
since all XML based semantic content markup languages can(should?) use CSS for presentation, and using CSS to separate the presentation from the content markup helps accessibility (user style sheets), internationalization (:lang etc.), device independence (media queries)
23:40:07 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please excuse us
23:40:08 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items