Web Services Architecture Working Group
13-FEB-2003 meeting minutes

Working Group home page Meeting records



Apple        Mike Ballantyne
AT&T         Mark Jones
BEA          Dave Orchard
Boeing       Gerald Edgar
CA           Igor Sedukhin
Carnegie-Mel Katia Sycara
Chevron-Tex  Roger Cutler
Cisco        Sandeep Kumar
Contivo      Dave Hollander
Daimler-Chry Mario Jeckle
EDS          Waqar Sadiq
HP           Zulah Eckert
HP           YinLeng Husband
IBM          Heather Kreger
Iona         Eric Newcomer
Ipedeo       Srinivas Pandrangi
Ipdedo       Alex Cheng
Mitre        Paul Denning
Nokia        Mike Mahan
Oracle       Jeff Michinsky
Progress     Colleen Evans
Sun          Doug Bunting
SAP          Sinisa Zimek
SeeBeyond    Ugo Corda
Thompson     Hao He
Tibco        Don Mullen
Toshiba      Frank McCabe
WW Grainger  Daniel Austin
WW Grainger  Tom Caroll
W3C          Hugo Haas


BEA               Duane Nickull   
IBM                  Chris Ferris
Oracle                  Martin Chapman
Nortel            Abbie Barbir
Sun                  Geoff Arnold
W3C                  David Booth


See agenda posted by the Chair.

Detailed minutes

Dial in information (members only):
http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/arch/admin#communication If you have additions to
the agenda, please email them to the WG list before the start of the
Confirm scribe.  The current list is at
Paul Denning, MITRE
2. Review pending action items
[ACTION: Chairs to do invite P3P group at Plenary -- PENDING
1 hour on Fri?
ACTION: Daniel to do Glossary terms update from requirements documents --
Daniel - Hugo clarifications that some glossary items exist.  Will point 
out with other actions.
ACTION: DaveH to do summarize bottom-up reliability notes -- PENDING
DaveH not on call, Pending.
ACTION: DaveO to do publish his critique of WS-Desc document -- PENDING
Requirements doc. in F2F minutes.  Closed.
(DO, Agenda addition for discussion of SOA styles)
ACTION: DavidBooth to do get self added as Editor -- PENDING
Done.  Closed.
ACTION: DonMullen DanC to do resolve issue 4 -- PENDING
Posted to comments list and Dan.  Done.
ACTION: Frank Eric Katia Zuah to do refactoring of WSA document -- PENDING
Refactoring continues.  Telecon held yesterday.  Divided labor and 
plans.  Some parts to be done by next telecon.
Progress being made, but not much on list.
ACTION: Hugo to do Glossary - missing definitions from document in Glossary
Not complete, but Hugo to look closer at the glossary.
A priori definition done.  Issue 1 in progress.
ACTION: Hugo to do add a priori to Glossary -- PENDING
ACTION: Hugo to do contact WSD document editor and resolve this issue --
WSDWG to use WSAWG definition for xxx,
Hugo wants to close the loop.  Pending.
ACTION: Mike to do recruit members to work on Usage Scenarios Document as
co-editor -- PENDING
ACTION: wsa-members to do all note-takers from break outs to send notes to
Closed to all members.  Action to Dave Orchard.
DO to send some notes re REST RPC scenarios.
ACTION: Daniel to close 23 per his option 1, and open a new issue for
Daniel needs to open the new issue.
ACTION: Eric to incorporate these suggestions regarding the document draft
ACTION: Hugo to include the ebXML stuff that we propose to change, and post
to list
Doc not posted pending a priori discussion.  Will send tomorrow with note 
to follow about a priori definitions.
ACTION: MikeC to explore subsetting issue with WSDL group.
MC asked WSD members of WSAWG on call to comment on subsetting.
MC will touch base with Jonathan Marsh to see if they want to open that up 
for discussion.
Report from task force(s) -- MTF ...
MTF report:
Heather/Zula:  two days of intense meetings.  long discussion of service 
versus service "instance".  Needs picture to
discuss.  Separate mailing list for TF?  ACTION:  Hugo will request 
separate list for MTF.
Mark: OASIS Mgmt Protocol TC dovetail?  TC recharted as WS Distrinuted Mgmt 
(WSDM) TC (Heather co-chair with Winston
Mgmt "using" WS, also Mgmt of WS based on requirements input from W3C.
Next WSAWG F2F, MTF to bring requirements.  If blessed by whole WSAWG, 
reqts will be worked by WSDM TC.  WSDM TC will
start in April (after March WSAWG F2F).
Bring forth MTF charter for F2F.  MTF hard to work without WSAWG work 
pending on Discovery Agencies, etc.
Group edits.  See private list.
ACTION: How to approve formal relationship with OASIS WSDM TF (needed 
around 1 Apr 2003)?
WSAWG recommendation to WSCG.
Heather:  liaison needed for other than MTF work.
Hugo: If we think liaison is a good thing, then WG Chair can decide.
Does W3M need to talk to Karl Best?
OASIS is a member of W3C, so they can become a member of W3C WGs.
Karl Best can appoint the person to represent OASIS.
Would resulting product have both OASIS and W3C as author?
MC looking to MTF to propose how they think it should work.
Hugo ACTION to summarize process and send email.
What needs to be so official?
xxx TF?
FrankM, Katia, ...
Requests separate mailing list?  Add to existing editors list
(ACTION: Hugo)
WSA/WSD Joint TF on Features
WSA members: Don Mullen, Dave Orchard
1 meeting so far, brainstorming use case scenarios.
Next Tues 11am ET
"Features" as first class citizens in WSD, then maybe WSA.
Subset of Features (MEPs are features).
XMLP WG discussion to realize as virtual infoset, separate from or superset 
of envelope.
Related to Concrete attachments work.  Some feel too radical, but (Mark 
Jones) thinks we may want to
ACTION to MJ to summarize and send pointers to WSAWG list.
Binding can then treate serialization of whole infoset.  Place in 
processing model.  Attachments have a place like
headers.  Unification of ideas.  E.g., headers removed and added.  Late in 
game for SOAP 1.2 or XMLP WG to work.  Next
round of SOAP or WSA should look into it.
Any suitable MIME type that can point anywhere.  How far to go with the 
Binding decides where to tuck things.  Negotiations to tailor packaging 
based on capability of destination?
XMLP WG not decided whether to work in further in XMLP WG.
MC clarified what MTF signed up to do at F2F.
MTF would spend time between F2F to develop a specific proposal.
3. Glossary discussion
- Definition of "agent", which spawned a metadiscussion of the importance of
aligning the WSA glossary with the Webarch terminology.  See the thread(s)
MC asks for
Hugo:  Hugo would like to freeze glossary after ebXML work done.  Things 
like "agent" come from webarch, so use their
definition without modification. If we find a reason why their definition 
will not work for WSA, then work it with TAG
(or other).  Try to keep definitions in sync, and work with source of 
definition if we need it tweeked.
"Agent community" not comfortable with congenial TAG definition of "agent".
Do we refine it for WSA use (without coordination with source), or push 
back on source.
Subclass, constrain, elucidation.
Information activity versus acting activity.
Same definition, but concept/context and relations may differ from webarch.
DO:  need to be specfic about difference between web agent versus web 
service agent.
Requires/uses needs to be explcit.  Use by referencee.g., "a web service 
agent is a web agent that ...".
"is a" relationship implies inheritance.
FrankM suggests trout session on this topic.  (Email not working, need 
higher bandwidth).
DO: Difference WS is a layer removed from users (human).  web agent is 
broader type of agent.  ws agent more specialized.
FrankM asking DO for clarification.
DO wants normative reference to web arch definition.
ACTION to Katia and Frank to include web agent by reference in definition 
of web service agent.
Process to harmonize reuse of definitions?
"Agents" is one of the first examples.  So no process yet.  (new ground).
Want harmony.
Expect similar discussion for other terms, such as "representation", ...
WSAWG role to reconcile these terms among other groups.
DO agenda item.
Properties of REST versus non-REST
What is the web service style?
In terms of RF thesis approach.
See section 2.3, 4, 5 of REST thesis.
SOA architectural style
Resource manipulated
Non-RESTful SOA introduced an intermediate resource; end resources are hidden.
Code on demand in REST is an optional constraint, so optional constraints 
are allowed.
Restful SOA?
Overlapping styles when two styles adopt some of the same constraints, so 
you reap the rewards in both (same properties).
Should WSAWG go down the path of refining SOA style?
FrankM - alternative is to
Question of whether to apply the approach that Roy F took in formulating REST.
DO found it useful to help compare and contrast styles.
FM: Not an academic question (compare and contrast).  We can do 
classification of architectures, but does not think that
is W3C.
MC proposes we take to email for a few days.
FM agrees we need to cast our work in proper context.
4. Requirements document issues resolution (Daniel)
Daniel has proposed resolution text to all the issues assigned to him.
We need to confirm that each of these is ready to be closed on the
basis of his suggested text.
Summary:  no comments or suggestions for changes since last week.  Submit 
resolved text?
Last week: speak now or hold your peace?
No one spoke up.
Anyone object or want to open a discussion on his proposed closure?
Veritas comment involves new issue.  Need to tell him.  Wants to see new 
issue before closing old one.
Close all but #23.
No one objects to closing other 8 issues.
See ACTION above for #23.
ACTION:  Chair to request update of issue list after email sent to 
5. Discussion spawned by ebXML Technical Architecture Spec
This document has been released for public review, with comments due in
about three months.  It spawned a discussion of the apparently different
conceptions of a "message layer" in the WSA and ebXML.  We can't resolve
these issues today, but we need to make sure that the WSA document will have
a specific and defensible position on how messaging, security, and
business-level semantics inter-relate.
[This item deferred, mostly]
Do we think it is likely, desireable, or possible that ebXML and WSA will 
be aligned?
ebXML has a messaging layer.  WSAWG approach may differ (ebXML has context, 
transaction id, no WSDL).  Conformance with
biz process.
"Messaging" may mean different things in ebXML versus WSA.
Early bound (ebXML) versus late bound (WS) ...?
OASIS started WS-Reliability TC.
Need couple paragraphs and diagram.
Where do we stop this sort of thing?  Choreography?
MC: Messaging is core, so we need to do this one.  Messaging not terribly 
clear in our work, so we need to tackle it.
WSAWG needs to help show how all this stuff fits together.

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Review of outstanding action items

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Summary of new action items

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See also the list of pending action items.

Chairs: Mike Champion <Mike.Champion@SoftwareAG-USA.com> and Dave Hollander <dmh@contivo.com&gt
Scribe: Paul Denning