W3C

WSA WG teleconference
7 Nov 2002

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present:

Computer Associates Igor Sedukhin
Contivo Dave Hollander
Fujitsu Frank McCabe
Hewlett-Packard Company Yin-Leng Husband
Hewlett-Packard Company Zulah Eckert
IONA Eric Newcomer
Ipedo Srinivas Pandrangi
Nokia Michael Mahan
Nortel Networks Abbie Barbir
Oracle Corporation Jeff Mischkinsky
SeeBeyond Technology Corp Ugo Corda
SeeBeyond Technology Corp Steve White
Software AG Michael Champion
Sun Microsystems, Inc. Doug Bunting
W3C David Booth
W3C Hugo Haas
XML Global Duane Nickull

Regrets:

AT&T Mark Jones
AT&T Ayse Dilber
Carnegie Mellon University Katia Sycara
ChevronTexaco Roger Cutler
Cisco Systems Inc Sandeep Kumar
DaimlerChrysler Research Mario Jeckle
DaimlerChrysler Research Hans-Peter Steiert
Ericsson Nilo Mitra
IBM Heather Kreger
IBM Chris Ferris
Progress Colleen Evans
SAP Sinisa Zimek
Sterling Commerce(SBC) Suresh Damodaran

Chair: Mike Champion, Dave Hollander

Scribe: Doug Bunting

Contents


<dbooth> If zakim didn't recognize you, you can add yourself to zakim's database: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3

<dougb> dougb will act like scribe and visa versa due to conscription

minutes from last week's telecon

Scribe: ACTION: mchampion to update minutes to change "dougm" to "unknown"

f2f agenda

Scribe: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-arch/2002Nov/0011.html

MikeC: runs through the existing outline.

All: Little discussion of first day. On to the second day.

Hearing none, almost on to the third day.

UgoMike: [This is Ugo and Mike for those on the phone :-] (No wait...) Quick discussion of pub / sub and asynchronous as separate topics.

DaveH: mentions message queues also seem to fit somewhere within these topics.

MikeC: wonders if all are related, possibly different levels of implementation detail? [unsure of last paraphrase]

FrankM: wonders if we want to cover pre/post-conditions and sequencing in our document.

MikeC: stuffs this into an open slot then describes the conceptual background for the arch document and its organization.

Chairs: Frank's presentation / discussion will likely happen on Friday.

Scribe: ACTION: Frank M to do a quick, informal presentation of this topic during the f2f (along the lines of leading a discussion).

On to last day. Friday concept: Open slots and deciding what WSA WG will "say" to AC Forum.

All: Some offline comments about finalizing Choreography WG Charter while 'they' are not on the call.

Hugo: notes the charter will be forwarded to the AC Forum prior to our f2f. Moot by the time we get together.

MikeC: wonders if time slot on Friday should be used to help Hugo with his presentation to AC Forum.

Hugo: believes he's doing the presentation but is not yet sure. Would like help, ensure he doesn't just make things up.

Scribe: ACTION: Reword Friday Choreography slot to be "decide what WSA WG would like to tell the AC representatives"

JeffM: asks if Hugo will be representing WG position or just doing a (random?) presentation.

Hugo: says he'll be talking about WS Activity and where we're going. He will cover our group and Choreography in at least some detail.

Scribe: ACTION: Hugo to determine his exact role and requirements to fill that role prior to Friday slot.

Frank: would prefer slot to be kept in the morning as he'll leave a bit early.

MikeC: says it will start at 10:50 and should end by lunch.

Scribe: Link to feature work: http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/2/06/LC/soap12-part1.html#extensibility

DaveH: notes this topic comes up often in the CG. Sounds good to Mike as well.

All: Question about covering during overlapping time frame with Desc group.

Scribe: ACTION: Chairs to make time for this on Wednesday and check with Glen about his ability to present in opened slot.

Chairs: Management discussion may move a bit later due to this shift.

Igor: notes this topic covers things of interest for the overall architecture and requests it is covered early in the f2f.

MikeC: agrees to leave it well enough alone.
... talks a bit about Issues list and process.

DaveH: notes we probably won't get to this area of this agenda. Will always be used as filler material in any meeting.

4 Liason issue with ws-security

Fast forward to 5: Choreography WG charter

Scribe: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Nov/0031.html

Jeff: explains "activities" wording as we decide whether Hugo's suggestions are friendly amendments.

Hugo: knew this comes from existing specifications but would prefer to leave it out. Not too hung up on his wording.

Jeff: asks "which would be more controversial?"

Unknown: choices are 1) Remove activity section and redistribute bullets elsewhere (nuking last couple as being "solution" level 2) leave as is.

Jeff: says major concern was reflection of / alignment with terminology in existing specification.

DaveH: wonders if "activities" could be moved under composition.

Eric: notes its possible to specify it as a separate topic for scoping of work.
... comments on web services joining activities.

DaveH: suggests an activity might be a "unit of work".

Eric: Friendly amendment, "scope of work".

Unknown: In any recursion, get down to an atomic level. In this case, that atomic item is an activity.

JeffM: proposal, eliminate activities as separate item. Add "activities - nesting and scoping rules" under "composition".

FrankM: wonders if nesting and composition is at any possible level, not necessarily related to atomic activities.
... Ontology issue: What is the meaning of "scope of an activity"?

All: some wondering about whether this is a topic for consideration by the proposed WG

Hugo: originally proposed removing "activities" because it all comes back to composition.

DaveH: avoiding description of internal behaviour
... suggesting amendment is a good idea.

All: wonder what level of amendments we're at.
... choice 1: move notion of activity to be a bullet under composition, maybe add scoping rules (/ nesting?) there too. No, not nesting...

Ugo: WSCI def'n of activity: Activities may be atomic or complex. Choreography relates activities temporally and recursively. [or something like that]

Jeff: notes his motion starts from Hugo's original proposal.

All: Some discussion of various meanings of "activity" in terms of their size.

Scribe: ACTION: Jeff M to make consensus changes (Hugo's proposal, movement of activities and scoping bullets around).

FrankM: asks about Turing completeness point. Consensus we're explicitly leaving this to the working group. Should the charter be that explicit?

DaveH: thinks this is like reminding proposed WG to breath. General thought seems to lean towards silence on topic in the charter. Issue will emerge.
... says Turing completeness is a feature of choreography rather than a scoping issue.

JeffM: reads his updated "composition" section of proposed Charter.

DaveH: moves to forward this to W3M, our advice to use this revised version.

JeffM: mentions schedule.

Hugo: wonders if anyone feels that strongly about it.

MikeC: thinks we're filling a slot in the template and will leave details to W3M.

Hugo: notes schedule is slightly unrealistic.

All: General agreement with fast start.

Scribe: ACTION: Jeff M amend proposed charter to read "December" for chartering timeframe.

Jeff: Process question: Will AC vote on this issue.

Hugo: talking about WS Activity in general. He probably will not talk for this WG. Notes the AC Forum will discuss things provided to the committee for review.

DaveH: Vote will likely complete via email but may be opened during the Forum meeting.
... General confidence in having discussion at the meeting!

All: resolution: General consensus for forwarding revised charter to W3M?
... Hearing none: SO RESOLVED

Scribe: ACTION: From Eric: Chairs to forward revised charter to W3M and encourage its distribution ASAP (in advance of AC meeting).

Jeff: Question: Who should do the actual sending? 1) will send revised version to w3m
... 2) separately, encouraging the W3M to do the AC forwarding ASAP.

DaveH: notes W3M will make the rest of the changes!

Jeff: agrees

Scribe: ACTION -8
... ACTION: Jeff M to send revised charter to the group and Steve, Michael and Hugo. Will include words indicating above resolution (support of the group).
... ACTION: Chairs to encourage W3M to forward this revised charter to the AC ASAP (in advance of AC meeting).

4 Liason issue with ws-security

Hugo: notes Jonathan has said Description group will leave this to us.
... Further, Description group won't muddy these waters.

Scribe: ACTION: Hugo will forward David O's email to WS-Security. (Complete)

6. XMLP Pushback [9] on our issue. (Issue was #390)

Hugo: summarizes their responses: 2 of 4 issues handled just fine.
... one problem: avoiding rewriting when moving things into packaged message

Doug: suggests forwarding use case from Chris.

Hugo: suggests waiting for Chris since it was his use case.

MikeC: wonders what timeframe will limit our response.
... specifically: can we wait for f2f?

Scribe: ACTION: Chairs to contact David Falside asking about required timing of our response. Hugo to help with words.

Chairs: We'll commit to a response by XMLP teleconference next Wednesday. May need to fall back to email discussion...

Scribe: ACTION -12
... ACTION: Chairs to contact David Fallside asking about required timing for our response.

<hugo> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Oct/0465.html

on to issue #392

All: As a group, we don't seem to grok Mark Baker's repsonse.
... Possible Mark is getting at issue 390 or something else.

Scribe: ACTION: Hugo to respond to Mark, suggesting he respond to XMLP group as an individual.

MikeC: summarizes that WSA WG will respond to just one of 4 issue resolutions from XMLP WG.

Random subjects of interest

Scribe: David Booth: suggests doing "Features" presentation (from Glen) just before lunch on Wednesday.
... ACTIONS?

Summary of Action Items

ACTION: Chairs to contact David Fallside asking about required timing for our response.
ACTION: Chairs to contact David Falside asking about required timing of our response. Hugo to help with words.
ACTION: Chairs to encourage W3M to forward this revised charter to the AC ASAP (in advance of AC meeting).
ACTION: Chairs to make time for this on Wednesday and check with Glen about his ability to present in opened slot.
ACTION: Frank M to do a quick, informal presentation of this topic during the f2f (along the lines of leading a discussion).
ACTION: From Eric: Chairs to forward revised charter to W3M and encourage its distribution ASAP (in advance of AC meeting).
ACTION: Hugo to determine his exact role and requirements to fill that role prior to Friday slot.
ACTION: Hugo to respond to Mark, suggesting he respond to XMLP group as an individual.
ACTION: Hugo will forward David O's email to WS-Security. (Complete)
ACTION: Jeff M amend proposed charter to read "December" for chartering timeframe.
ACTION: Jeff M to make consensus changes (Hugo's proposal, movement of activities and scoping bullets around).
ACTION: Jeff M to send revised charter to the group and Steve, Michael and Hugo. Will include words indicating above resolution (support of the group).
ACTION: Reword Friday Choreography slot to be "decide what WSA WG would like to tell the AC representatives"
ACTION: mchampion to update minutes to change "dougm" to "unknown"

David Booth
dbooth@w3.org
$Date: 2002/12/05 16:39:39 $