Results of Questionnaire ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element - Straw Poll for Objections

The results of this questionnaire are available to anybody.

This questionnaire was open from 2010-05-12 to 2010-05-19.

7 answers have been received.

Jump to results for question:

  1. Objections to the Change Proposal to Remove the aide Element
  2. Objections to the Change Proposal to Keep New Elements and Attributes

1. Objections to the Change Proposal to Remove the aide Element

We have a Change Proposal to remove the aside element. If you have strong objections to adopting this Change Proposal, please state your objections below.

Keep in mind, you must actually state an objection, not merely cite someone else. If you feel that your objection has already been adequately addressed by someone else, then it is not necessary to repeat it.


Responder Objections to the Change Proposal to Remove the aide Element
Cynthia Shelly The aside element provides useful document structure, which can be used by assistive technology, small screen devices, or in conjuction with CSS to provide alternative renderings of the content. It is better to have this information at the semantic layer, rather than the accessibility layer, as it has other uses besides accessiblity.
Larry Masinter
David Singer - The new semantic elements in HTML5 enable cleaner and more accessible markup for both document-centric and application-like websites. <aside> is part of a complete set and goes along with <section>, <nav>, <article>, <header> and <footer> as well as the semantic elements inherited from HTML4.
- Semantic elements lead to improved accessibility. The HTML WG Accessibility Task Force has endorsed the <aside> element and opposed the call to remove it.
- The <aside> element has an initial experimental implementation in WebKit. Implementation experience has shown that the cost of adding it is very low.
- Implementors of other browser engines, including Gecko and Presto, have expressed interest in implementing this element.

Given the interest from authors, implementors and the accessibility community in keeping it, the <aside> element should not be removed.
Dean Leigh
Jonas Sicking I object to removing the <aside> element as it would result in missing out of the positive effects listed in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/KeepNewElements#Positive_Effects

My experience working with web authors for several years is that they tend to do what is easy, whereas accessibility often ends up coming second due to time constraints and unawareness.

By including the semantic <aside> element, we both make it easier for developers to do what they want, since <div class=aside>+CSS is more work than <aside>, as well as automatically get good accessibility in pages.

I think it's very unlikely that as many people would add proper ARIA attributes, as would use the <aside> element. I think this is the reason that the WAI-ARIA specification encourages developers of markup languages to add semantic elements and explicitly declares ARIA as a bridge technology. I also think this is why the HTML Accessibility TF has endorsed the <aside> element.
Krzysztof Maczy&#324;ski Authors as well as semantically oriented editors and tools tend to imitate this element in markup. While it may and in some cases will compete with other quite general purpose containers, that's the nature of markup languages with semantics and usage defined descriptively (rather than prescriptively). Users of HTML just need to deal with it and learn to benefit from it.
Laura Carlson

2. Objections to the Change Proposal to Keep New Elements and Attributes

We have a Change Proposal to keep several newly-introduced semantic elements, attributes, and controls. If you have strong objections to adopting this Change Proposal specifically with respect to the aside element, please state your objections below.

Keep in mind, you must actually state an objection, not merely cite someone else. If you feel that your objection has already been adequately addressed by someone else, then it is not necessary to repeat it.


Responder Objections to the Change Proposal to Keep New Elements and Attributes
Cynthia Shelly
Larry Masinter (see objection on ISSUE-90; lack of transition plan and unambiguous support at this point => remove to allow HTML5 to reach rec realistically).
David Singer
Dean Leigh There is a limit to how many HTML elements are practical to manage, document and teach as well as be dealt with consistenlty by browsers.

Therefore any new element must be deemed "essential". I dont belive "aside" is needed at all but I do see much greater need for other navigational elements.

Elements like "aside" are far too prescriptive and can easily be made with current HTML and CSS.
Jonas Sicking
Krzysztof Maczy&#324;ski
Laura Carlson Rationale is at:

More details on responses

  • Cynthia Shelly: last responded on 13, May 2010 at 19:23 (UTC)
  • Larry Masinter: last responded on 13, May 2010 at 20:50 (UTC)
  • David Singer: last responded on 18, May 2010 at 18:33 (UTC)
  • Dean Leigh: last responded on 18, May 2010 at 21:17 (UTC)
  • Jonas Sicking: last responded on 19, May 2010 at 18:45 (UTC)
  • Krzysztof Maczy&#324;ski: last responded on 19, May 2010 at 20:19 (UTC)
  • Laura Carlson: last responded on 20, May 2010 at 01:34 (UTC)


The following persons have not answered the questionnaire:

  1. Tantek Çelik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
  2. Patrick D F Ion <pion@umich.edu>
  3. Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>
  4. Liam Quin <liam@w3.org>
  5. Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
  6. Chris Wilson <cwilso@google.com>
  7. David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk>
  8. James Helman <jhelman@movielabs.com>
  9. Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
  10. Chris Marrin <cmarrin@apple.com>
  11. Charles McCathie Nevile <chaals@yandex.ru>
  12. Philippe Le Hégaret <plh@w3.org>
  13. Don Brutzman <brutzman@nps.edu>
  14. T.V. Raman <raman@google.com>
  15. Daniel Glazman <daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com>
  16. Karl Dubost <karl@la-grange.net>
  17. Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
  18. Wu Chou <wu.chou@huawei.com>
  19. Katsuhiko Momoi <momoi@google.com>
  20. Kangchan Lee <chan@w3.org>
  21. Roy Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com>
  22. Deborah Dahl <dahl@conversational-technologies.com>
  23. Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>
  24. Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
  25. Jonathan Jeon <hollobit@etri.re.kr>
  26. David Hyatt <hyatt@apple.com>
  27. WonSuk Lee <wonsuk.lee@etri.re.kr>
  28. Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
  29. Robert Accettura <robert@accettura.com>
  30. Jonathan Watt <jwatt@jwatt.org>
  31. Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
  32. Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo <emmanuelle@sidar.org>
  33. Patrick Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
  34. David MacDonald <David100@sympatico.ca>
  35. Jack Jansen <jack@cwi.nl>
  36. Kazuhito Kidachi <k-kidachi@mitsue.co.jp>
  37. Markku Hakkinen <mhakkinen@ets.org>
  38. Jens Oliver Meiert <jens@meiert.com>
  39. Kazuyuki Ashimura <ashimura@w3.org>
  40. Han Xu <collin@w3china.org>
  41. Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
  42. Mark Crawford <mark.crawford@sap.com>
  43. Preety Kumar <preety.kumar@deque.com>
  44. Ian Fette <ifette@google.com>
  45. Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
  46. Stefan Schnabel <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>
  47. Jirka Kosek <jirka@kosek.cz>
  48. Travis Leithead <Travis.Leithead@microsoft.com>
  49. Youngsun Ryu <ysryu@samsung.com>
  50. Sierk Bornemann <sierkb@gmail.com>
  51. James Graham <james@hoppipolla.co.uk>
  52. Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@hsivonen.fi>
  53. Krijn Hoetmer <w3c@qontent.nl>
  54. Channy Yun <channy@gmail.com>
  55. Shane Thacker <shanethacker@gmail.com>
  56. Vilem Malek <murphy@malek.cz>
  57. Zhihong Mao <zhihong.mao@gmail.com>
  58. Benoit Piette <benoit.piette@gmail.com>
  59. Erik van Kempen <erikvankempen@gmail.com>
  60. Dimitri Glazkov <dglazkov@google.com>
  61. Nick Fitzsimons <w3@nickfitz.co.uk>
  62. Josh Lawton <w3c@joshlawton.com>
  63. S Emerson <w3c@accretewebsolutions.ca>
  64. Theresa O'Connor <eoconnor@apple.com>
  65. Justin Anthony Knapp <justinkoavf@gmail.com>
  66. Simon Myers <Smylers@stripey.com>
  67. Samuel Weinig <weinig@apple.com>
  68. Alexey Proskuryakov <ap@webkit.org>
  69. Alejandro Fernandez <alejandro@mediadvanced.com>
  70. Doug Jones <doug_b_jones@me.com>
  71. Marc Drumm <mdrumm@wcupa.edu>
  72. Danny Liang <danny.glue@gmail.com>
  73. Michael Puls II <shadow2531@gmail.com>
  74. Ron Reisor <ron@udel.edu>
  75. Craig Buckler <craigbuckler@gmail.com>
  76. Dale Hudjik <dale.hudjik@gmail.com>
  77. James Cassell <w3c@cyberpear.com>
  78. Joseph D'Andrea <jdandrea@gmail.com>
  79. Eric Carlson <eric.carlson@apple.com>
  80. Don Kiely <donkiely@computer.org>
  81. David Child <dave@addedbytes.com>
  82. Mark DuBois <Mark@webprofessionals.org>
  83. David Bills <w3@dfbills.com>
  84. Nik Thierry <me@thisemail.ca>
  85. Andrew Ramsden <andrew@irama.org>
  86. John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
  87. Shefik Macauley <allknightaccess@gmail.com>
  88. Joe Steele <steele@adobe.com>
  89. John Vernaleo <john@netpurgatory.com>
  90. Jeremy Keith <jeremy@adactio.com>
  91. Jedi Lin <JediLin@Gmail.com>
  92. Jon Hughes <jon@phazm.com>
  93. Samuel Santos <samaxes@gmail.com>
  94. Dean Jackson <dino@apple.com>
  95. Mohammed DADAS <mohammed.dadas@orange.com>
  96. Sally Cain <sally.cain@rnib.org.uk>
  97. David Bolter <dbolter@mozilla.com>
  98. James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
  99. Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
  100. Jean-Pierre EVAIN <evain@ebu.ch>
  101. Mark Pilgrim <pilgrim@google.com>
  102. Matt Lee <mattl@cnuk.org>
  103. Magnus Olsson <magnus.olsson@ericsson.com>
  104. Chris Pearce <cpearce@mozilla.com>
  105. Andrew Wilson <atwilson@google.com>
  106. Per-Erik Brodin <per-erik.brodin@ericsson.com>
  107. Ojan Vafai <ojan@chromium.org>
  108. Martin McEvoy <martin@weborganics.co.uk>
  109. Aryeh Gregor <ayg@aryeh.name>
  110. Anders Bondehagen <anders@bondehagen.com>
  111. Steven Pemberton <Steven.Pemberton@cwi.nl>
  112. Raul Hudea <rhudea@adobe.com>
  113. Raghavan Gurumurthy <raghavan@adobe.com>
  114. Mayank Kumar <mayankk@adobe.com>
  115. Dragos Georgita <dgeorgit@adobe.com>
  116. Christopher Bank <cbank@adobe.com>
  117. Ole Riesenberg <or@oleriesenberg.com>
  118. Takuya Oikawa <takuya@google.com>
  119. Jatinder Mann <jmann@microsoft.com>
  120. Robert Stern <rstern@gmail.com>
  121. Eihab Ibrahim <eihabibrahim@gmail.com>
  122. Kensaku KOMATSU <kensaku.komatsu@gmail.com>
  123. Jer Noble <jer.noble@apple.com>
  124. Masatomo Kobayashi <mstm@jp.ibm.com>
  125. Peter Beverloo <beverloo@google.com>
  126. Andrew Scherkus <scherkus@google.com>
  127. Greg Johnson <greg.johnson@gmail.com>
  128. Martijn Croonen <martijn@martijnc.be>
  129. Stanley Manoski <manoski@mitre.org>
  130. Mounir Lamouri <mlamouri@google.com>
  131. Tony Gentilcore <tonyg@google.com>
  132. Joseph Pecoraro <pecoraro@apple.com>
  133. Bob Lund <b.lund@cablelabs.com>
  134. Tatsuya Igarashi <Tatsuya.Igarashi@sony.com>
  135. John Simmons <johnsim@microsoft.com>
  136. Mark Watson <watsonm@netflix.com>
  137. Clarke Stevens <c.stevens@cablelabs.com>
  138. Mark Vickers <mark_vickers@comcast.com>
  139. Jeremy LaCivita <jeremy.lacivita@comcast.com>
  140. Denis Ah-Kang <denis@w3.org>
  141. Alvar Laigna <laigna@gmail.com>
  142. Kunio Ito <kunio.ito@mail.rakuten.com>
  143. David Mays <david_mays@comcast.com>
  144. Michael Chen <michael_chen@comcast.com>
  145. jongyoul Park <jongyoul@etri.re.kr>
  146. Reinaldo Ferraz <reinaldo@nic.br>
  147. Eva Lingyun Jing <jinglingyun@baidu.com>
  148. GANG LIANG <gang.liang@huawei.com>
  149. Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@apple.com>
  150. Gian Luca Marroni <gmarroni@libero.it>
  151. Ian Devlin <ian@iandevlin.com>
  152. Xingrong Guo <guoxingrong@baidu.com>
  153. Jet Villegas <w3c@junglecode.net>
  154. Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
  155. Hasan Savran <hsavran@kent.edu>
  156. Eric VonColln <eric.voncolln@navy.mil>
  157. Rayi Lei <leiyi@baidu.com>
  158. David Dorwin <ddorwin@google.com>
  159. jiexuan gao <gaojiexuan@baidu.com>
  160. Xiaoqing Yang <yangxiaoqing@baidu.com>
  161. Aaron Colwell <acolwell@google.com>
  162. Alex Giladi <alex.giladi@huawei.com>
  163. Motomasa Futagami <mares@paoz.net>
  164. Kevin Streeter <kstreete@adobe.com>
  165. Christian Kaiser <kaiserc@google.com>
  166. Xuejian Li <lixuejian@baidu.com>
  167. Zuncheng Yang <yangzuncheng@baidu.com>
  168. Qianglong Zheng <zhengqianglong@baidu.com>
  169. Zhou Shen <shenzhou@baidu.com>
  170. Duoyi Wu <wuduoyi@baidu.com>
  171. Zheng Jia <jiazheng@baidu.com>
  172. Weifeng Feng <fengweifeng@baidu.com>
  173. Damin Hu <hudamin@baidu.com>
  174. Yang Liu <liuyang12@baidu.com>
  175. Zhixing Lei <leizhixing@baidu.com>
  176. Honggang Tang <tanghonggang@baidu.com>
  177. Kefeng Li <buaadallas@gmail.com>
  178. Xu Ma <maxu@baidu.com>
  179. Junzhong Liu <liujunzhong@baidu.com>
  180. Stefan Kaiser <stefan.kaiser@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
  181. Stefan Pham <stefan.pham@fokus.fraunhofer.de>
  182. Ami Fischman <fischman@google.com>
  183. Arnaud Braud <arnaud.braud@orange.com>
  184. Futomi Hatano <futomi.hatano@newphoria.co.jp>
  185. Bram Tullemans <tullemans@ebu.ch>
  186. Petr Peterka <ppeterka@verimatrix.com>
  187. lei wang <wanglei03@baidu.com>
  188. Milan Patel <Milan.Patel@huawei.com>
  189. Yiling Gu <guyiling@baidu.com>
  190. Zefa Xiong <xiongzefa@baidu.com>
  191. shanglin chen <chenshanglin@baidu.com>
  192. Ping Wu <wuping02@baidu.com>
  193. Bin Chen <chenbin01@baidu.com>
  194. Youichi Takashima <takashima.youichi@lab.ntt.co.jp>
  195. Patrick Ladd <Pat_Ladd2@comcast.com>
  196. Norifumi Kikkawa <norifumi.kikkawa@jp.sony.com>
  197. Hao Jing <jh.jinghao@huawei.com>
  198. Glenn Deen <glenn.deen@nbcuni.com>
  199. Lei Wang <wanglei@baidu.com>
  200. Tom Handal <thandal@verimatrix.com>
  201. Pengcheng Guo <guopengcheng@baidu.com>
  202. Tom Wiltzius <wiltzius@google.com>
  203. Pierre-Anthony Lemieux <pal@sandflow.com>
  204. Xie Jianhui <xiejianhui@baidu.com>
  205. Yujie Jiang <jiangyujie@baidu.com>
  206. Kazuhiko Takabayashi <kazuhiko.takabayashi@jp.sony.com>
  207. Brady Eidson <beidson@apple.com>
  208. Michael Thornburgh <mthornbu@adobe.com>
  209. Mick Hakobyan <mhakobyan@netflix.com>
  210. Vladimir Sinelnikov <sinelnikov@gmail.com>
  211. Chris Wong <huanghoujin@baidu.com>
  212. Yiliang LIU <liuyiliang@baidu.com>
  213. mingqiang zhang <imcnan@gmail.com>
  214. Suzanne Taylor <Suzanne.Taylor@pearson.com>
  215. Grzegorz Babula <gbabula@gmail.com>
  216. Brian Kardell <hitchjs@gmail.com>
  217. xueliang fan <fanxueliang@baidu.com>
  218. Niels Thorwirth <nthorwirth@verimatrix.com>
  219. David Evans <david.evans@rd.bbc.co.uk>
  220. Joseph Karr O'Connor <josephoconnor@mac.com>
  221. Yusuke Kagiwada <block.rxckin.beats@gmail.com>
  222. smallni ding <smallniding@tencent.com>
  223. Jim Walsh <jim@jwalshcreative.com>
  224. Greg Davis <greg.davis@pearson.com>
  225. Gabino Alonso <gabinovincent@gmail.com>
  226. Sam Langdon <sam.langdon@hachette.co.uk>
  227. Michael Kelly <mkelly@mozilla.com>
  228. Xiaoqian Wu <xiaoqian@w3.org>
  229. Yue Min <minyue@baidu.com>
  230. Min Li <limin04@baidu.com>
  231. Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
  232. Pedro Xavier Jorge <pedro.xavierjorge@gmail.com>
  233. Akira Torii <Torii.Akira@bp.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  234. So Vang <svang@nab.org>
  235. Nathalia Sautchuk Patrício <nathalia@nic.br>
  236. Vicente García Díaz <vicegd@live.com>
  237. Shinya Maruyama <Shinya.Maruyama@jp.sony.com>
  238. Yusuke Yokosuka <Yokosuka.Yusuke@bx.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  239. John Riviello <john_riviello@comcast.com>
  240. yaolong wang <wangyaolong@baidu.com>
  241. Tao Liang <liangtao01@baidu.com>
  242. Glenn Eguchi <geguchi@adobe.com>
  243. Lukáš Čihák <lukas.cihak@mensa.cz>
  244. WOOGLAE KIM <wlkim@inswave.com>
  245. Min Ren <minren@tencent.com>
  246. Jason White <jjwhite@ets.org>
  247. Hyejin Lee <hjlee@html5forum.or.kr>
  248. Richard Grzeczkowski <richard_grzeczkowski@comcast.com>
  249. Pascal Perrot <pascal.perrot@orange.com>
  250. Dapeng Liu <max.ldp@alibaba-inc.com>
  251. Matthew Wolenetz <wolenetz@google.com>
  252. Cory Heslip <cory_heslip@comcast.com>
  253. Shaohang Yang <shaohang.ysh@alibaba-inc.com>
  254. Seiji Okumura <Okumura.Seiji@bc.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  255. Eiji Yamamoto <Yamamoto.Eiji@db.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp>
  256. Ali C. Begen <ali_begen@comcast.com>
  257. HENGBING LIU <herbertliu@tencent.com>

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