15:26:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:26:06 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webont
15:28:19 <DanC> agenda + 29Aug http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0248.html
15:28:49 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 29Aug. chair: JimH; scribe: Tim Finin
15:52:43 <timfinin> timfinin has joined #WEBONT
15:54:10 <jhendler> jhendler has joined #webont
15:54:44 <jjc> jjc has joined #webont
15:54:59 <jjc> is it time to dial?
15:55:09 <jjc> Zakim, who ?
15:55:11 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, jjc.
15:55:17 <jjc> Zakim, help
15:55:18 <Zakim> Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
15:55:19 <Zakim> Some of the commands I know are:
15:55:20 <Zakim>  xxx is yyy       - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
15:55:22 <Zakim>                     if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
15:55:24 <Zakim>  xxx may be yyy   - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
15:55:27 <Zakim>  I am xxx         - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
15:55:29 <Zakim>  xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
15:55:31 <Zakim>  xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
15:55:32 <Zakim>  who's here?      - lists the participants on the phone
15:55:34 <Zakim>  who's muted?     - lists the participants who are muted
15:55:36 <Zakim>  mute xxx         - mutes party xxx (such that 60# will not work)
15:55:38 <Zakim>  unmute xxx       - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
15:55:40 <Zakim>  is xxx here?     - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
15:55:42 <jjc> Zakim, who's here?
15:55:43 <Zakim>  list conferences - reports the active conferences
15:55:44 <Zakim>  this is xxx      - associates this channel with conference xxx
15:55:45 <Zakim>  excuse us        - disconnects from the irc channel
15:55:45 <schreiber> schreiber has joined #webont
15:55:45 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2002/08/29 17:48:05 $
15:55:47 <Zakim> sorry, jjc, I don't know what conference this is
15:55:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see jjc, jhendler, timfinin, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger_1
15:56:48 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:56:55 <Zakim> +??P3
15:57:27 <Zakim> +Jim_Hendler
15:58:57 <jhendler> zakim, agenda+ ADMIN
15:58:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
15:59:09 <jhendler> zakim, what is the agenda
15:59:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'what is the agenda', jhendler.  Try /msg Zakim help
15:59:15 <jhendler> zakim, what is the agenda?
15:59:16 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
15:59:17 <Zakim> 1. 29Aug http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0248.html [from DanC]
15:59:18 <Zakim> 2. ADMIN [from jhendler]
15:59:31 <Zakim> +??P7
15:59:41 <Zakim> +Marwan_Sabbouh
16:00:02 <Zakim> +??P11
16:00:04 <jhendler> zakim, agenda+ TEST
16:00:06 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
16:00:13 <jhendler> zakim, agenda+ SEM
16:00:14 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
16:00:24 <jhendler> zakim, agenda+ GUIDE
16:00:25 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
16:00:31 <jhendler> zakim, agenda+ AOB
16:00:32 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
16:00:39 <jhendler> zakim, next agendum
16:00:41 <Zakim> agendum 1. "29Aug http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0248.html" taken up [from DanC]
16:00:42 <jjc> Zakim, ??P11 is jjc
16:00:43 <Zakim> +Jjc; got it
16:00:50 <Zakim> +??P9
16:01:01 <Zakim> +??P16
16:01:02 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:01:03 <timfinin> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0262.html
16:01:04 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
16:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, Jim_Hendler, ??P7, Marwan_Sabbouh, Jjc, ??P9, ??P16
16:01:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisW, schreiber, jjc, jhendler, timfinin, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger_1
16:01:07 <Zakim> +??P17
16:01:13 <jhendler> zakim, ??p3 is Guus
16:01:15 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
16:01:23 <jhendler> zakim, ??P7 is TimFinin
16:01:24 <Zakim> +TimFinin; got it
16:01:31 <pfps> pfps has joined #webont
16:01:35 <Zakim> +DanBri
16:01:39 <Zakim> +TimF.a
16:01:40 <jjc> 61# mutes the phone
16:01:40 <Zakim> +??P27
16:01:43 <Zakim> +??P20
16:01:46 <Zakim> +Leo
16:01:52 <jhendler> zakim, who is here
16:01:53 <Zakim> jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'
16:01:58 <Zakim> +M_Smith
16:02:03 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:02:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Jim_Hendler, TimFinin, Marwan_Sabbouh, Jjc (muted), ??P9, ??P16, ??P17, DanBri, TimF.a, ??P27, ??P20, Leo, M_Smith
16:02:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, ChrisW, jjc, jhendler, timfinin, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger_1
16:02:05 <Zakim> +??P29
16:02:10 <Zakim> +Goto
16:02:16 <Massimo> Massimo has joined #webont
16:02:17 <schreiber> schreiber has joined #webont
16:02:20 <timfinin> Today's agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0248.html
16:02:26 <jhendler> zakim, TimFinin is Massimo
16:02:28 <Zakim> +Massimo; got it
16:02:31 <Zakim> +??P31
16:02:34 <libby> libby has joined #webont
16:02:35 <jhendler> zakim, who is here
16:02:37 <Zakim> jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'
16:02:59 <schreiber> zakim, who is here?
16:03:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Jim_Hendler, Massimo, Marwan_Sabbouh, Jjc (muted), ??P9, ??P16, ??P17, DanBri, TimF.a, ??P27, ??P20, Leo, M_Smith, ??P29, Goto, ??P31
16:03:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see libby, schreiber, Massimo, pfps, ChrisW, jjc, jhendler, timfinin, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger_1
16:03:03 <jjc> zakim, why are you so pedantic?
16:03:04 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, jjc.
16:03:10 <Zakim> +Massimo.a
16:03:19 <libby> I think danbri is me
16:03:21 <Massimo> Zakim, Massimo is TImFinin
16:03:22 <Zakim> +TImFinin; got it
16:03:26 <libby> I'm using his phone
16:03:30 <Massimo> Zakim, Massimo.a is Massimo
16:03:31 <Zakim> +Massimo; got it
16:03:51 <libby> Zakim, DanBri is libby
16:03:53 <Zakim> +Libby; got it
16:03:55 <pfps> Zakim, ??P17 is pfps .
16:03:56 <ChrisW> I'm on the phone somewheres
16:03:58 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P17 is pfps .', pfps.  Try /msg Zakim help
16:04:02 <Zakim> +??P13
16:04:14 <jhendler> zakim, ??p17 is pfps
16:04:15 <Zakim> +Pfps; got it
16:04:16 <pfps> Zakim, ??P17 is pfps
16:04:17 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named '??P17'
16:04:28 <Zakim> +??P0
16:05:00 <DeborahMc> DeborahMc has joined #webont
16:05:18 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:05:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Jim_Hendler, TImFinin, Marwan_Sabbouh, Jjc (muted), ??P9, ??P16, Pfps, Libby, TimF.a, ??P27, ??P20, Leo, M_Smith, ??P29, Goto, ??P31, Massimo (muted),
16:05:21 <Zakim> ... ??P13, ??P0
16:05:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see DeborahMc, libby, schreiber, Massimo, pfps, ChrisW, jjc, jhendler, timfinin, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger_1
16:06:02 <Zakim> +DanC
16:06:06 <libby> Zakim, mute Libby
16:06:07 <Zakim> Libby should now be muted
16:06:08 <jjc> I am getting lots of echo, I am muted, is it my line?
16:06:13 <jhendler> zakim, ??p9 is jonathan
16:06:14 <Zakim> +Jonathan; got it
16:06:15 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
16:06:27 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jim_Hendler (23%), Marwan_Sabbouh (25%), ??P13 (35%), Leo (4%), ??P31 (39%)
16:06:27 <jhendler> zakim, ??p16 is Ian
16:06:29 <Zakim> +Ian; got it
16:06:34 <jhendler> zakim, ??p20 is chris
16:06:35 <Zakim> +Chris; got it
16:06:37 <DanC> Zakim, mute Marwan
16:06:39 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:06:39 <Zakim> Marwan_Sabbouh should now be muted
16:06:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Jim_Hendler, TImFinin, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), Jjc (muted), Jonathan, Ian, Pfps, Libby (muted), TimF.a, ??P27, Chris, Leo, M_Smith, ??P29, Goto, ??P31,
16:06:42 <Zakim> ... Massimo (muted), ??P13, ??P0, DanC
16:06:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see DeborahMc, libby, schreiber, Massimo, pfps, ChrisW, jjc, jhendler, timfinin, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger_1
16:06:44 <Massimo> Jeremy, it could be Ian (if you're muted, it can't be you ;)
16:07:02 <jhendler> zakim, ??p13 is heflin
16:07:03 <Zakim> +Heflin; got it
16:07:11 <jhendler> zakim, ??p0 is gibbins
16:07:13 <Zakim> +Gibbins; got it
16:07:14 <jjc> I am in Italy, I quite often need to redial international calls
16:07:15 <jhendler> zakim, who is here
16:07:17 <Zakim> jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'
16:07:25 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:07:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Jim_Hendler, TImFinin, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), Jjc (muted), Jonathan, Ian, Pfps, Libby (muted), TimF.a, ??P27, Chris, Leo, M_Smith, ??P29, Goto, ??P31,
16:07:28 <Zakim> ... Massimo (muted), Heflin, Gibbins, DanC
16:07:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see DeborahMc, libby, schreiber, Massimo, pfps, ChrisW, jjc, jhendler, timfinin, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger_1
16:07:47 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
16:07:59 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Heflin (14%), Chris (19%), ??P31 (71%)
16:08:01 <jhendler> zakim, ??p31 is mike
16:08:02 <Zakim> +Mike; got it
16:08:04 <DanC> Klein, Dean, Eshelman
16:08:10 <jhendler> zakim, ??p29 is LarryE
16:08:11 <Zakim> +LarryE; got it
16:08:27 <jhendler> zakim, TimFinin is terHorst
16:08:28 <Zakim> +TerHorst; got it
16:08:43 <jhendler> zakim, Goto is Klein
16:08:45 <Zakim> +Klein; got it
16:08:48 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:08:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Jim_Hendler, TerHorst, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), Jjc (muted), Jonathan, Ian, Pfps, Libby (muted), TimF.a, ??P27, Chris, Leo, M_Smith, LarryE, Klein, Mike,
16:08:51 <Zakim> ... Massimo (muted), Heflin, Gibbins, DanC
16:08:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see DeborahMc, libby, schreiber, Massimo, pfps, ChrisW, jjc, jhendler, timfinin, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger_1
16:09:01 <timfinin> goto considered dangerous?
16:09:06 <jhendler> zakim, ??p27 is McGuinness
16:09:07 <Zakim> +McGuinness; got it
16:09:08 <jjc> I am going to redial ... dropping out for a moment ...
16:09:11 <Zakim> -Jjc
16:09:17 <jhendler> zakim, who is here
16:09:18 <Zakim> jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'
16:09:20 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:09:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Jim_Hendler, TerHorst, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), Jonathan, Ian, Pfps, Libby (muted), TimF.a, McGuinness, Chris, Leo, M_Smith, LarryE, Klein, Mike, Massimo
16:09:23 <Zakim> ... (muted), Heflin, Gibbins, DanC
16:09:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see DeborahMc, libby, schreiber, Massimo, pfps, ChrisW, jjc, jhendler, timfinin, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger_1
16:09:28 <herman> herman has joined #webont
16:09:29 <Zakim> -M_Smith
16:09:58 <Zakim> +M_Smith
16:10:00 <Zakim> +??P2
16:10:05 <timfinin> attendance finished
16:10:09 <DanC> Zakim, ??P2 is JeremyC
16:10:10 <Zakim> +JeremyC; got it
16:10:19 <timfinin> tim finin is scribing
16:10:25 <timfinin> Today's agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0248.html
16:10:55 <Zakim> +Pat_Hayes
16:10:58 <timfinin> last week's miutes approved
16:11:32 <jjc> zakim, unmute JeremyC
16:11:34 <Zakim> JeremyC was not muted, jjc
16:11:49 <timfinin> Larry E action to collect examples continues, needs more examples
16:12:24 <timfinin> JimH action to collect test case for issue 4.2 continued. mail sent to jeremy
16:12:35 <timfinin> Jeremy action to remove rdf suff done
16:12:37 <DanC> does Larry really _need_ more examples? or does he just want them?
16:12:43 <timfinin> Guss action to do part-of action done
16:12:58 <timfinin> Dlm action done
16:13:40 <timfinin> Guus to update UML document to reflect new Owl Lite -- what was the stats?
16:13:55 <schreiber> my action is continued
16:14:05 <timfinin> Mike dean to take on RDF/RDFS/OWL
16:14:06 <ChrisW> I am working on an OWL-ized version of the standard part relation axioms
16:14:06 <timfinin> Lite/OWL comparison/discussion document
16:14:11 <timfinin> action coninued
16:14:27 <timfinin> done: Hayes will do a revision of his model theory
16:14:37 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:14:38 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JeremyC
16:14:38 <Zakim> -M_Smith
16:14:41 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:14:42 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Marwan_Sabbouh (muted)
16:14:43 <timfinin> done Peter Patel-Schneider will do a revision of his model theory
16:14:48 <ChrisW> won't be here next week
16:14:49 <DanC> ack Marwan
16:14:55 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:14:56 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Leo
16:15:00 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:15:01 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Guus
16:15:15 <Zakim> +M_Smith
16:15:37 <timfinin> next week's scribe will be Leo.
16:15:49 <timfinin> Face to face 4 update
16:15:50 <timfinin> Jeremy re: registration proces
16:16:00 <DanC> registration: http://www.w3.org/2000/11/msm/showv.php3?wgid=30310&qno=ftf4att
16:16:31 <timfinin> 12 orgs responded that they are coming, 3 not coming, 21 have not said.
16:16:58 <jjc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0151.html
16:16:59 <timfinin> hotel info is only in email.  make reservations before cutoff
16:17:44 <timfinin> jjc will renegotiate with hotel to extend registration time with hotel, if possible
16:18:06 <ChrisW> 4th f2f: +1 responded, -1 not said
16:18:44 <DanC> hotel info linked from wg home page http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ $Revision: 1.47 $
16:18:48 <jhendler> travel info on local registration page
16:18:55 <libby> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/20020620-kickoff/Overview.html#Logistics
16:18:59 <libby> might be helpful
16:19:03 <DanC> local info page: http://www-uk.hpl.hp.com/people/jjc/webont/webontOct.html
16:19:17 <timfinin> it's a two hour drive from heathrow to briston, three hours from gatwick
16:19:22 <jhendler> 2 hr heathrow, 3 from Gatwick
16:19:56 <timfinin> ACTION: jjs will sort out entertainment options for ftf4
16:20:27 <libby> ilrt is poor :(
16:20:31 <jhendler> s/jjs/jjc
16:20:35 <timfinin> jjs invites sponsors for ftf4 entertainment.  HP will not pay
16:20:48 <libby> ilrt is poor  but fun!
16:21:48 <timfinin> ftf5 meeting discussion begins
16:22:42 <timfinin> danc says WOWG carter goes thru november
16:23:05 <timfinin> jimh assumes a march/april ftf will deal with minor matters
16:24:06 <timfinin> ftf meetings coming up include October, ?Jauary, ?March/april
16:24:14 <jjc> q+
16:24:23 <timfinin> chrisw: what's the rational for meeting in march in boston?
16:24:41 <timfinin> jimh: w3c plenary is there, then.
16:24:51 <libby> the tech plenaries are usually very interesting
16:24:52 <DanC> # CONFIRMED: Technical Plenary DATES: 3-7 March 2003 Susan Westhaver (Mon, Jul 08 2002)  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2002JulSep/0011.html
16:24:58 <DanC> [member confidential]
16:25:58 <timfinin> jimh says it's good to have presence at w3c plenary if we're coming out with recommendation
16:26:49 <timfinin> mike dean attests that w3c plenaries very valuable, jjc concurs
16:26:55 <jjc> q-
16:27:07 <DanC> ack DanC
16:28:16 <Zakim> -Mike
16:28:29 <timfinin> under discussion is where should ftf5 and ftf6 be.
16:29:25 <timfinin> danc raises possibility of a two site meeting (e.g., east coaast, west coast usa) linked by video, as done in some w3c meetings
16:29:27 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:30:35 <timfinin> ianh will work to provide good remote access (via access grid) to ftf4 in manchester
16:32:25 <DanC> http://www-fp.mcs.anl.gov/fl/accessgrid/
16:32:36 <DanC> list of sites: http://www-fp.mcs.anl.gov/fl/accessgrid/ag-nodes.htm
16:33:48 <timfinin> jimh describes option 1: manchester meeting with remote access
16:33:58 <jjc> nodes include Brookhaven National Laboratory
16:34:11 <jjc> versity at Buffalo
16:34:31 <schreiber> q+
16:35:20 <jjc> q+
16:35:30 <timfinin> guus suggests we don't need a ftf in january since as danc points out, charter is up this fall.
16:35:40 <DanC> s/suggests/offers the possibility/
16:36:26 <timfinin> danc proposes we are done in december.
16:37:07 <timfinin> done => out for review
16:37:14 <DanC> I didn't propose; i observed that this is the schedule of record.
16:37:32 <timfinin> But you said "propose" I think.  
16:37:51 <DanC> I said "Proposed Recommendation" which is the milestone we're scheduled to reach in December.
16:38:05 <timfinin> ok
16:38:56 <timfinin> jimh raises possibility of long telecon to finish details in January, rather than a ftf
16:39:48 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:39:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Jim_Hendler, TerHorst, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), Jonathan, Ian, Pfps, Libby (muted), TimF.a, McGuinness, Chris, Leo, LarryE, Klein, Massimo (muted), Heflin,
16:39:50 <timfinin> jimh and ian suggest we schedule ftf in january and then cancel if not needed
16:39:51 <Zakim> ... Gibbins, DanC, JeremyC, Pat_Hayes, M_Smith, Mike_Dean
16:40:26 <DanC> ack Marwan
16:41:01 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
16:41:21 <timfinin> danc is polling ppl to see how they feel about a jan ftf
16:41:27 <libby> Zakim, unmute libby
16:41:27 <DanC> ack libby
16:41:28 <Zakim> Libby should no longer be muted
16:41:44 <libby> zakim, mute libby
16:41:45 <Zakim> Libby should now be muted
16:43:18 <DanC> massimo
16:44:35 <ChrisW> I can live with the two-site approach, too
16:45:16 <timfinin> No strong consensus seems to emerge?
16:45:37 <timfinin> Jimh sees no consensus
16:46:40 <timfinin> jimh suggests scheduling ftf in january with option to cancel if it's deemed not neccessary.  location in manchester with Chrisw providing a NY access grip point
16:47:06 <timfinin> dlm says she wouldn't travel across country to participate in NY access
16:47:09 <DanC> (seems to me the time for discussion is perhaps exhausted; seems perhaps in order to do an actual binding vote)
16:47:16 <DanC> (maybe by email)
16:47:27 <ChrisW> +q
16:47:37 <timfinin> ianh suggests dlm can get access to access grid node in Northern CA
16:47:41 <schreiber> ack schreiber
16:47:55 <schreiber> ack jjc
16:48:15 <schreiber> ack ChrisW
16:48:15 <DanC> hmm... "consensus"? i.e. no objections to NY? that's not what I saw.
16:48:29 <ChrisW> on the web vote
16:48:30 <timfinin> chrisw says consensus in email vote was to hold jan ftf in NY
16:48:42 <Massimo> we need a new tally with the new options
16:48:49 <mdean> mdean has joined #webont
16:49:22 <timfinin> discussion of calling for a vot, what's the question, danc asks
16:49:49 <jhendler> January 9 and 10 are the dates proposed
16:50:19 <timfinin> question: 9-10 january ftf in either (1) manchester or (2) NY
16:51:08 <timfinin> jjc proposes another question: should be schedule fttf6 in boston in conjunction with w3c mtg?
16:51:44 <timfinin> jimh proposes ftf6 in boston at w3c plenary to be canceld if not needed
16:51:50 <timfinin> dates: 3-7 March 2003
16:52:24 <libby> miller
16:52:28 <ChrisW> Welty in favor
16:52:38 <timfinin> danc calls for vote on his q, ftf6 in boston 3-7 march
16:52:52 <ChrisW> sounds like consensus!
16:53:04 <timfinin> many say yes, no one says no
16:53:11 <ChrisW> q+
16:53:23 <timfinin> jimh does formal vote.  question passes
16:53:36 <jhendler> Resolved, to hold f2f6 in Boston.
16:53:51 <timfinin> resolved: ftf6 will be scheduled in Boston 3-7 March 2003.  may be canceled if deemed no longer neccessary
16:53:53 <jjc> s/./ if necessary./
16:55:13 <timfinin> jimh does straw poll on ftf5 in (1) manchester vs (2) NY on 9-10 jan
16:55:27 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:55:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Jim_Hendler, TerHorst, Marwan_Sabbouh, Jonathan, Ian, Pfps, Libby (muted), TimF.a, McGuinness, Chris, Leo, LarryE, Klein, Massimo (muted), Heflin, Gibbins,
16:55:31 <Zakim> ... DanC, JeremyC, Pat_Hayes, M_Smith, Mike_Dean
16:55:34 <timfinin> danc runs poll
16:55:54 <libby> manchester
16:56:31 <DanC> M A M N M M M M N N N N N A M N A N M A N M
16:56:38 <ChrisW> wow
16:56:49 <timfinin> poll results: [9] Manchester, [9] NY, [4] neutral or abstain
16:57:14 <timfinin> who has a coin?
16:58:01 <timfinin> danc proposes we do a vote (non secret) by email, one vote per organization
16:58:23 <Massimo> 1.5 bits ;)
16:58:46 <timfinin> ACTION: danc will hold email vote on location of ftf5: Manchester or NY.  One vote per org.  seven days to respond
16:59:19 <timfinin> two more items for today: TEST and SEM.
17:00:08 <timfinin> jimh would like to make time for SEM, 5-10 minutes
17:00:20 <timfinin> path to report on his work on SEM
17:00:31 <DanC> # Re: ftf 5 in Manchester Peter F. Patel-Schneider (Tue, Aug 27 2002)  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0236.html
17:00:40 <DanC> -> http://www.coginst.uwf.edu/users/phayes/RDFS2OWL-D.html
17:00:49 <jjc> mute JeremyC
17:00:58 <DanC> Zakim, mute jeremy
17:01:00 <Zakim> JeremyC should now be muted
17:01:07 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
17:01:49 <timfinin> path will produce a new document in the next few days
17:02:17 <jjc> Zakim, unmute JeremyC
17:02:18 <Zakim> JeremyC should no longer be muted
17:02:23 <jjc> q+
17:02:27 <timfinin> jimh asks if we are down to details or are there still major issues?
17:02:29 <ChrisW> q-
17:03:16 <timfinin> danc says new proposal is not substantively different from pfps's model theory
17:03:57 <timfinin> jjc says we still have issues, like are classes in or not in the domain of discourse
17:04:24 <timfinin> jjc also raises classes as instances issues -- rdf allows this, what do we want.  we can go either way
17:05:16 <timfinin> jimh asks do we have a framework in which we can resolve the issues, not have we resolved them.
17:06:33 <timfinin> pfps says the path document and approach can't handle all rdf graphs.
17:07:17 <timfinin> pfps: can any coherent extension be made to cover all rdf graphs and give them an owl meaning?
17:08:39 <timfinin> mike smith asks if there are any competing theories?
17:09:07 <timfinin> mike smith: how does the axiomatic stuff layer on the semantics
17:10:18 <schreiber> q+
17:11:05 <timfinin> pfps asks danc if there are things in path's document he objects to
17:11:31 <timfinin> (e.g. OWL top doesn't include all RDF things)
17:12:14 <timfinin> path feels like we have the layering problem licked.
17:12:55 <schreiber> fan, 
17:13:05 <timfinin> further discussion will take place on mailing list
17:13:23 <timfinin> jjc will take action to proke on mailing list.
17:13:31 <schreiber> Dan, could you give a list of changes to Pat's MT so that it would comply with your MT
17:13:40 <timfinin> s/proke/provoke/
17:13:58 <timfinin> end of discussion on SEM, moving to TEST
17:14:13 <jhendler> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0204.html
17:14:38 <pfps> q+
17:14:44 <timfinin> jjc proposes we approve several TESTs
17:14:46 <jjc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0223.html
17:14:57 <schreiber> q-
17:15:15 <jjc> q-
17:15:37 <timfinin> pfps suggests we first decide how tests should be approved.
17:16:31 <jjc> zakim, mute jeremy
17:16:32 <Zakim> JeremyC should now be muted
17:16:56 <jjc> I don't believe we have made formal decisions about test process
17:17:30 <timfinin> danc suggests we get some test cases, then develop the process for future approval
17:18:03 <timfinin> we have two approved test cases and many proposed one and, says pfps, this reveals a problem.
17:19:03 <timfinin> path describes potential problem -- test case might be approved in the context of some assumptions, but those assumptions are later changed.
17:19:15 <jjc> zakim, unmute jeremy
17:19:17 <Zakim> JeremyC should no longer be muted
17:19:18 <jjc> q+
17:20:15 <timfinin> jimh describes goal -- to have a document with test cases like the rdf test cases
17:20:37 <jjc> zakim, who's talking
17:20:38 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
17:20:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's talking', jjc.  Try /msg Zakim help
17:20:39 <Zakim> -Marwan_Sabbouh
17:20:41 <timfinin> path -- maybe we can have a document of test cases w/o having to formally approve them
17:20:43 <jhendler> zakim, who is speaking?
17:20:44 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, jhendler.
17:20:46 <timfinin> beeping
17:20:49 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jim_Hendler (9%), Leo (9%)
17:20:54 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes
17:20:54 <Zakim> -Heflin
17:20:56 <Zakim> -Klein
17:21:03 <timfinin> beeping stopped.  whew
17:21:44 <DanC> jjc, I actually haven't reviewed the tests you're proposing today. Do you know who has?
17:21:59 <jjc> - Jos did
17:22:07 <DanC> ah.
17:22:09 <jjc> - Ian looked at them
17:22:12 <timfinin> jimh wants a staw poll on test cases as put up by jjc today
17:22:46 <timfinin> question: anyone opposed to approving the three test cases?
17:22:56 <libby> what did jos think?
17:22:57 <timfinin> opposed: pfps
17:23:09 <timfinin> question: has anyone reviewed the test cases?
17:23:43 <timfinin> jjc says that ianh didn't like the third test
17:24:01 <jjc> the third test is not up for vote today
17:24:08 <timfinin> pfps is the only objection
17:24:38 <timfinin> jimh: peter -- is that a don't like or a can't live with?
17:25:01 <timfinin> pfps: it's a can't live with, for now.
17:25:27 <timfinin> pfps: I want to really look at the technical details of the tests, which I've not done.
17:26:30 <libby> gotta run, bye
17:26:32 <Zakim> -Libby
17:27:25 <timfinin> discussion of the issue of acknowleding the fact that there might be errors in a test which could only be discovered after approval.
17:27:39 <timfinin> pfps: "today, I can't live with approving the tests"
17:28:09 <timfinin> jimh: call the question "approve the test cases as described in jjc's email"
17:28:16 <timfinin> all opposed: pfps
17:28:22 <timfinin> Abstain: chrisw
17:28:50 <timfinin> jimh: we're out of time.
17:28:58 <Massimo> it has to go in the final record only if the test case becomes part of a normative spec
17:29:02 <timfinin> jimh: any more business
17:29:19 <timfinin> MIke Smith?: will get copy of guide out by next tuesday or wednesday
17:29:31 <Zakim> -M_Smith
17:29:32 <Zakim> -Ian
17:29:39 <Zakim> -Leo
17:29:40 <Zakim> -LarryE
17:29:41 <Zakim> -Chris
17:29:43 <Zakim> -McGuinness
17:29:44 <Zakim> -Jonathan
17:29:45 <Zakim> -TimF.a
17:29:46 <Zakim> -DanC
17:29:47 <Zakim> -JeremyC
17:29:48 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:29:51 <timfinin> resolved: test cases as proposed by jjc in email have been approved
17:29:51 <Zakim> -TerHorst
17:29:58 <Zakim> -Pfps
17:30:00 <Zakim> -Jim_Hendler
17:30:01 <Zakim> -Massimo
17:30:15 <timfinin> end of telecon
17:30:21 <Zakim> -Gibbins
17:30:33 <Zakim> -Guus
17:30:34 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
17:46:03 <pfps> pfps has left #webont