IRC log of webont on 2002-08-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:40:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:40:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #webont
15:40:19 [DanCon]
Zakim, this will be WebO
15:40:20 [Zakim]
ok, DanCon
15:53:18 [DanConn]
DanConn has joined #webont
15:54:21 [libby]
libby has joined #webont
15:58:44 [schreiber]
schreiber has joined #webont
15:59:03 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:59:09 [Zakim]
16:00:28 [DanCon]
DanCon has joined #webont
16:00:30 [Zakim]
16:00:43 [Zakim]
16:00:51 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:00:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, ??P13, ??P14
16:00:53 [Zakim]
16:00:54 [Zakim]
16:00:59 [Zakim]
16:01:04 [libby]
I think I'm ??P14
16:01:05 [schreiber]
regrets: Dean, Oberst, Wallace, Marchiori, ter Horst, Trastour, Yanosy
16:01:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.610.758.aaaa
16:01:20 [schreiber]
zakim, ??p13 is GuusS
16:01:22 [Zakim]
+GuusS; got it
16:01:23 [libby]
zakim, ??P14 is libby
16:01:24 [Zakim]
+Libby; got it
16:01:25 [Zakim]
16:01:33 [Zakim]
16:01:34 [Zakim]
16:01:40 [Zakim]
16:01:47 [DanC]
agenda + 22Aug
16:02:07 [pfps]
pfps has joined #webont
16:02:15 [Zakim]
16:02:42 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 22Aug. scribe: DebM
16:02:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.908.233.aabb
16:02:52 [Zakim]
16:03:04 [schreiber]
zakim, ??p20 is OraL
16:03:05 [Zakim]
+OraL; got it
16:03:07 [Zakim]
16:03:15 [pfps]
what is the page that gives Zakim status
16:03:22 [DanCon]
DanCon has joined #webont
16:03:27 [Raphael]
Raphael has joined #webont
16:03:31 [Raphael]
16:03:39 [DanCon]
16:03:58 [jhendler]
jhendler has joined #webont
16:04:00 [Zakim]
16:04:12 [jhendler]
JimH running late - be on phone in 2-3 min = please start w/o me.
16:04:13 [Zakim]
16:04:47 [frankh]
frankh has joined #webont
16:05:01 [dlm]
dlm has joined #webont
16:05:14 [DanCon]
16:05:17 [DanCon]
16:05:20 [DanCon]
16:05:22 [dlm]
mcguinness scribing
16:05:23 [DanCon]
ack DanC
16:05:26 [dlm]
Regrets: Borden, Carroll, Motta, de Roo, Stein (tentative)
16:05:38 [DanCon]
16:05:41 [dlm]
16:05:42 [Zakim]
16:05:46 [dlm]
16:05:48 [Zakim]
16:06:13 [Zakim]
16:06:43 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:06:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, ??P16, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh, +1.610.758.aaaa, ??P19, OraL, ??P24, M_Smith, ??P21, ??P25, +1.908.233.aabb, ??P27, DanC, ??P29, Pat_Hayes,
16:06:46 [Zakim]
... ??P13
16:06:56 [schreiber]
Dean, Oberst, Wallace, Marchiori, ter Horst, Trastour, Yanosy
16:06:59 [Zakim]
16:07:11 [schreiber]
Regrets: Dean, Oberst, Wallace, Marchiori, ter Horst, Trastour, Yanosy
16:07:13 [dlm]
screiber's listing was additional regrets
16:07:32 [DanCon]
I prefer an edited version of the IRC log afterward, but maybe that's just me; we'll see whether IRC logs are sufficient when we get to 1.2 on today's agenda.
16:07:43 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's talkings?
16:07:44 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, DanCon.
16:07:47 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's talking?
16:07:58 [Zakim]
DanCon, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Marwan_Sabbouh (83%), DanC (80%)
16:08:06 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's talking?
16:08:17 [Zakim]
DanCon, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Marwan_Sabbouh (4%)
16:08:19 [Zakim]
16:08:38 [timfinin]
timfinin has joined #webont
16:08:42 [DanCon]
Zakim, mute Marwan
16:08:43 [Zakim]
Marwan_Sabbouh should now be muted
16:09:07 [jhendler]
zakim, who is here?
16:09:07 [dlm]
6 0 # unmutes yourself
16:09:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, ??P16, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), +1.610.758.aaaa, ??P19, OraL, ??P24, M_Smith, ??P21, ??P25, +1.908.233.aabb, ??P27, DanC, ??P29,
16:09:10 [Zakim]
... Pat_Hayes, ??P13, Jim_Hendler, ??P31
16:09:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see timfinin, dlm, frankh, jhendler, Raphael, DanCon, pfps, schreiber, libby, Zakim, RRSAgent, logger_1
16:09:56 [dlm]
stanton miller marwan ora smith connolly hayes hendler
16:10:08 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P16 is FrankvH
16:10:09 [Zakim]
+FrankvH; got it
16:10:14 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P16 is TimF
16:10:16 [Zakim]
sorry, DanCon, I do not recognize a party named '??P16'
16:10:20 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P19 is IanH
16:10:21 [Zakim]
+IanH; got it
16:10:27 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??P27 is DebM
16:10:28 [Zakim]
+DebM; got it
16:10:38 [DanCon]
Zakim, aabb is PeterPS
16:10:40 [Zakim]
+PeterPS; got it
16:10:47 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:10:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, FrankvH, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), +1.610.758.aaaa, IanH, OraL, ??P24, M_Smith, ??P21, ??P25, PeterPS, DebM, DanC, ??P29, Pat_Hayes,
16:10:49 [timfinin]
zakim, ??p16 is timfinin
16:10:51 [Zakim]
... ??P13, Jim_Hendler, ??P31
16:10:52 [Zakim]
sorry, timfinin, I do not recognize a party named '??p16'
16:11:01 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??p24 is Guus
16:11:05 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
16:11:09 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??p25 is EvanW
16:11:11 [Zakim]
+EvanW; got it
16:11:13 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:11:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, FrankvH, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), +1.610.758.aaaa, IanH, OraL, Guus, M_Smith, ??P21, EvanW, PeterPS, DebM, DanC, ??P29, Pat_Hayes,
16:11:16 [Zakim]
... ??P13, Jim_Hendler, ??P31
16:11:41 [DanCon]
Zakim, aaaa is TimF
16:11:42 [Zakim]
+TimF; got it
16:11:49 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??p29 is LarryE
16:11:51 [Zakim]
+LarryE; got it
16:12:02 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??p21 is JeffH
16:12:03 [Zakim]
+JeffH; got it
16:12:05 [jhendler]
zakim, tell Ralph he should have a faster way to identify the ??P.. folks (i.e. something like zakim, name LarryE - and it will pick a random one and assign it)
16:12:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'tell Ralph he should have a faster way to identify the ??P.. folks (i.e. something like zakim, name LarryE - and it will pick a random one and assign it)',
16:12:08 [Zakim]
... jhendler. Try /msg Zakim help
16:12:10 [DanCon]
Zakim, ??p31 is Rudiger
16:12:12 [Zakim]
+Rudiger; got it
16:12:16 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:12:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, FrankvH, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), TimF, IanH, OraL, Guus, M_Smith, JeffH, EvanW, PeterPS, DebM, DanC, LarryE, Pat_Hayes, ??P13,
16:12:20 [Zakim]
... Jim_Hendler, Rudiger
16:12:25 [DanCon]
oh well.
16:12:29 [dlm]
list above is attendance
16:12:33 [Zakim]
+ +44.117.311.aacc
16:12:33 [Zakim]
16:12:41 [Raphael]
Raphael has joined #webont
16:12:59 [jhendler]
zakim, ??p1 is steve buswell
16:13:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??p1 is steve buswell', jhendler. Try /msg Zakim help
16:13:16 [jhendler]
zakim, ??p1 is buswell
16:13:17 [Zakim]
+Buswell; got it
16:13:41 [dlm]
meeting record accepted posted at
16:14:02 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's talking?
16:14:12 [Zakim]
DanCon, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +44.117.311.aacc (25%), ??P13 (84%), EvanW (4%), Jim_Hendler (10%), DanC (4%)
16:14:33 [dlm]
no agenda amendments
16:14:46 [Zakim]
16:14:48 [DanCon]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:14:49 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Buswell
16:14:52 [DanCon]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:14:55 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Libby
16:15:03 [DanCon]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:15:04 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TimF
16:15:13 [dlm]
scribe next week? buswell nominated, not on irc, miller nominated, finin nominated
16:15:23 [dlm]
finin accepts
16:15:44 [las]
las has joined #webont
16:15:54 [las]
zakim, who is here?
16:15:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, FrankvH, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), TimF, IanH, OraL, Guus, M_Smith, JeffH, EvanW, PeterPS, DebM, DanC, LarryE, Pat_Hayes, ??P13,
16:15:57 [Zakim]
... Jim_Hendler, Rudiger, +44.117.311.aacc, Buswell, Lynn_Stein
16:15:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see las, Raphael, timfinin, dlm, frankh, jhendler, DanCon, pfps, schreiber, libby, Zakim, RRSAgent, logger_1
16:16:00 [dlm]
ftf schedule - hotel info forwarded from guus, mcguinness included weblink, people requested to make their own hotel reservations
16:16:37 [dlm]
schreiber posted both f2f5 and f2f6 locations (not just f2f5)
16:16:38 [DanCon]
deb's msg about ftf4 hotels
16:17:13 [dlm]
chairs were to decide f2f5 location
16:17:18 [dlm]
3 points:
16:17:26 [dlm]
1 - even distribution between europe and us
16:17:40 [dlm]
2 colocation with plenary in march in boston is desirable
16:18:00 [dlm]
3 many things may be needed to get things inplace for discussion
16:18:36 [dlm]
two meetings in a row in england
16:19:01 [dlm]
are now proposed
16:19:17 [Zakim]
16:19:51 [dlm]
stein points to center of mass for participants and suggests that the split between europe and us evenly does not meet the center of mass
16:20:20 [dlm]
eastern us is closer to center of mass for participants
16:21:00 [dlm]
maintaining 3 in us and 3 in europe seems an arbitrary decision
16:22:09 [dlm]
manchester has an access grid room
16:22:47 [dlm]
one choice point is 2 meetings in england now or two meetings in the us in 2003
16:24:18 [dlm]
decision wasabout f2f 5
16:24:41 [dlm]
flipped a coin and picked manchester
16:24:55 [dlm]
can appeal the decision out of the telecon
16:25:01 [dlm]
pat action done
16:25:20 [dlm]
eshelman continued
16:25:40 [dlm]
eshelman asks for part-whole examples to be sent to him, schreiber asks for sending to group as well
16:25:44 [dlm]
raphael done
16:25:48 [dlm]
hendler continued
16:25:57 [dlm]
dan c done on f2f record
16:26:01 [dlm]
carroll continued
16:26:11 [dlm]
chairs forwarding hotel done
16:26:18 [dlm]
chairs determine f2f5 done
16:26:21 [DanCon]
ftf record now has model theory summary $Revision: 1.34 $ of $Date: 2002/08/22 13:59:26 $
16:26:28 [dlm]
schreiber wine example continued
16:26:35 [dlm]
dlm continued closed world
16:26:43 [dlm]
guus will take 2 weeks for uml doc
16:26:53 [dlm]
hendler inform semantic web group done
16:27:05 [dlm]
chairs process for rdf/owl comparison doc continued
16:27:19 [dlm]
hendler's aboved discussed in cg
16:27:25 [dlm]
item 3
16:27:35 [dlm]
16:27:50 [dlm]
references also to pfps's and dan's in email
16:28:03 [dlm]
16:28:04 [dlm]
Dan's MT
16:28:04 [dlm]
16:28:08 [DanCon]
Zakim, is pat here?
16:28:10 [Zakim]
probably, DanCon; Pat_Hayes arrived 22 minutes ago
16:29:23 [dlm]
pat - pfps's model theory for abstract syntax
16:29:33 [dlm]
rendering of abstract syntax into rdf
16:30:01 [dlm]
as input
16:30:13 [dlm]
did a transliteration of semantic conditions from pfps's model theory
16:30:23 [dlm]
and stated as structural interpretation
16:30:41 [dlm]
showed one could construct and rdf interpretation that was a structural interpretation
16:31:21 [dlm]
construction of rdf interpretation for owl has 2 stages
16:31:25 [dlm]
pfps model theory
16:31:40 [dlm]
move the interpretation over to rdf
16:31:46 [dlm]
assigns interpretations to subgraphs
16:31:53 [dlm]
that may not be an rdfs interpretation
16:31:59 [dlm]
need to assign truth values
16:32:19 [dlm]
could be uniformly extended to an rdfs interpretation that comes out with the same truth values
16:32:31 [dlm]
there is an rdfs interpretation that satisfies the owl model theory
16:32:39 [dlm]
there is a "devious trick"
16:32:51 [dlm]
extension mapping refers to the notion of validity of the first kind of model
16:33:08 [dlm]
for more details refer to pats document
16:34:44 [dlm]
questions - pfps - claims pats claims are false
16:35:07 [dlm]
pfps has examples of entailments valid in one and not the other
16:35:26 [DanCon]
Peter's point seems well made, to me.
16:36:15 [dlm]
horrocks - can have an example of one thing in domain of discourse in owl and claim not true in pat's
16:37:16 [dlm]
hayes - semantics for rdfs graphs and follows rdfs rules
16:37:25 [dlm]
classes can exist that are not owl:class
16:38:13 [dlm]
all things in IR will be larger than in one for OWL, but this is irrelevent
16:38:36 [dlm]
hayes not not reproduce all aspects of pfps's model theory
16:39:14 [dlm]
clarification - hendler - key differences between hayes and dan's view
16:39:22 [DanCon]
Zakim, who's talking?
16:39:33 [Zakim]
DanCon, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +44.117.311.aacc (28%), ??P13 (9%), Pat_Hayes (89%)
16:39:38 [dlm]
should be dan/jeremy view
16:40:11 [Zakim]
- +44.117.311.aacc
16:40:38 [dlm]
dan/jeremy propose a strategy that is too limiting and hayes claims that his does not require the strong limitations
16:41:25 [dlm]
hayes claims a version of pfps's model theory that is compatible with rdfs - not capturing the semantic structures but hayes claims the truth
16:41:53 [dlm]
horrocks - points out a bug
16:42:14 [DanCon]
ooh... interesting... negation w.r.t. owl:Thing. hmm...
16:42:15 [dlm]
hayes says subclass of owl entities not rdfs entities
16:43:01 [dlm]
horrocks - the task hayes has may be too hard to do in a short time period
16:43:49 [dlm]
smith - what is the advantage of taking a straight forward and readable model theory and writing it in this form
16:43:57 [dlm]
hayes - clarifies relationship to rdfs
16:44:18 [dlm]
smith - how do people think of this language?
16:44:55 [dlm]
3 languages?
16:45:06 [dlm]
hard to keep the prefixes right - smith
16:45:20 [dlm]
hayes - consider the rdfs family
16:46:11 [dlm]
van harmelen - what is the fate of the pfps proposed counter examples?
16:46:37 [dlm]
pfps claims the problem is hayes does not have enough classes
16:46:58 [dlm]
does the intersection of student and class exist? asks connolly
16:47:03 [dlm]
hayes - yes
16:47:19 [dlm]
pfps - the list, the sequence but not the intersection
16:47:31 [dlm]
does it exist for pfps's version?
16:47:42 [dlm]
the problem does not arise for pfps's version
16:48:36 [dlm]
hayes -this may be the answer for hayes too
16:48:55 [dlm]
hayes has an action item to go back and look at pfps's first example again
16:49:28 [dlm]
horrocks - what about sequences (e.g., intersection of a b a )
16:49:47 [dlm]
hayes - can not have loops but he means to allow repetition
16:50:00 [dlm]
this is just a bug; should allow for duplication
16:50:40 [dlm]
horrocks - what is the interpretation of thing?
16:50:51 [dlm]
hayes - owl:thing
16:51:18 [dlm]
what is the interpretation of A or not A
16:51:24 [dlm]
hayes - true
16:51:25 [Zakim]
16:51:50 [dlm]
action - more thought is required because of the complementation issue
16:53:24 [dlm]
what is the minimum interpretation?
16:53:52 [dlm]
a number of questions are arising on what is the interpretation of proposed classes such as the union of B and its complement?
16:54:32 [dlm]
horrocks - we dont know how to do great horned owl
16:54:51 [dlm]
hayes - lets not focus on great horned owl
16:55:51 [dlm]
connolly suggests that this is the same problem he found in his model theory and he never found a fix
16:57:48 [dlm]
if classes are in domain of discourse, then problems occur with cardinality of domain
16:57:58 [dlm]
domains have minimum size
16:58:14 [dlm]
rdfs has minimum size
16:58:36 [dlm]
great horned owl domain is infinite
17:00:19 [dlm]
horrocks points out that everything that follows in owl does not follow in great horned owl
17:02:08 [dlm]
horrocks claims there is no inbetween world that conforms to owl
17:02:54 [dlm]
i.e, the entailments are not the same as those in pfps' model theory
17:04:25 [dlm]
the point is reraised that this task that hayes has may be too hard to be solved in a reasonable time for this working group
17:05:13 [dlm]
dark triples handles the problem in another way but in a way that "ignores rdf"
17:05:45 [dlm]
van harmelen - we have now clarified the bind but we do not have a resolution
17:05:59 [dlm]
horrocks - pfps' proposal is a solution
17:06:10 [dlm]
van harmelen - but it does not show a relationship between owl and rdfs
17:06:25 [dlm]
smith - we need to have a statement of the relationship (possibly leaving out features)
17:07:25 [dlm]
hendler - do we really have a proposal that is fully worked out (other than a solution where everything is dark)?
17:08:01 [Zakim]
17:08:24 [dlm]
will someone take an action to write such a proposal?
17:09:43 [dlm]
pfps - the charter of the working group could be satisfied without this by using the syntax of rdfs but not the semantics
17:14:10 [dlm]
Possible ACTION - Hayes will do a revision by Monday that addresses major points raised
17:14:20 [dlm]
horrocks questions if this makes sense
17:16:48 [dlm]
possible action above is real action
17:17:14 [jhendler]
ACTION: Hayes will do a revision of his MT document that addresses major points raised
17:20:30 [frankh]
17:20:48 [schreiber]
ack frankh
17:21:01 [frankh]
17:21:03 [dlm]
frank - tradeoff between speed of progress vs. quality of main result
17:22:11 [dlm]
the hope would be that pat would be successful yielding a more acceptable group mt
17:23:20 [dlm]
horrocks would like a time limit set on the MT proposal
17:24:05 [dlm]
other proposals could be refined in the time period
17:24:25 [dlm]
request for messages clarifying issues dependent upon this
17:24:55 [dlm]
suggestion - in 2 weeks take stock again of the mt situation
17:26:38 [dlm]
class problem - there are too many for pfps mt and too few for what hayes wants
17:26:54 [dlm]
agreed - 2 week discussion period on MT
17:28:50 [DanCon]
maybe peter could type it?
17:29:04 [dlm]
ACTION - pfps will do a revision of his MT that clarifies the relationship between his MT and rdfs
17:29:23 [dlm]
and peter will attempt to make this relationship non trivial
17:29:55 [Zakim]
17:29:56 [Zakim]
17:29:57 [Zakim]
17:29:58 [Zakim]
17:29:59 [Zakim]
17:29:59 [Zakim]
17:30:00 [Zakim]
17:30:00 [Zakim]
17:30:02 [Zakim]
17:30:03 [Zakim]
17:30:04 [Zakim]
17:30:07 [Zakim]
17:30:10 [Zakim]
17:30:12 [Zakim]
17:30:13 [Zakim]
17:30:15 [DanCon]
evidently not
17:30:17 [Zakim]
17:30:18 [Zakim]
17:30:19 [libby]
17:30:20 [jhendler]
irc or phone?
17:30:30 [Zakim]
17:30:34 [DanCon]
I was hoping to follow up on the question PatH asked
17:30:44 [schreiber]
dan, we did not discuss the role of your MT. Can you adjust also?
17:30:52 [Zakim]
17:31:11 [DanCon]
adjust: well, I could pretty it up with examples, but no, I don't know how to address the substantive objections
17:31:39 [dlm]
does anyone know where the url for this record is?
17:31:42 [Zakim]
17:31:44 [Zakim]
17:31:46 [DanCon]
RRSAgent, pointer?
17:31:46 [RRSAgent]
17:31:53 [Zakim]
17:31:59 [DanCon]
hang on while I fix the access control info, deb
17:32:02 [dlm]
17:32:32 [timfinin]
today's discussion gave me a headache and made me think of this quote, which I am fond of, ""Confusionists and superficial intellectuals move ahead while the 'deep
17:32:32 [timfinin]
thinkers' descend into the darker regions of the status quo or, to express it
17:32:32 [timfinin]
in a different way, they remain stuck in the mud." -- Paul Feyerabend (1988)
17:33:05 [dlm] shows up now
17:33:18 [DanCon]
ok, great.
17:34:16 [jhendler]
I prefer a different quote:
17:34:17 [jhendler]
Mathematical ideas originate in empirics .. But, once they are so conceived, the subject begins to live a peculiar life of its own and is better compared to a creative one, governed almost entirely by aesthetical motivations ŠAs a mathematical discipline travels, or after much abstract inbreeding, [it] is in danger of degenerationŠwhenever this stage is reached, the only remedy seems to me to be the rejuvenating return to the source; the reinjec
17:34:18 [jhendler]
--- John Von Neumann, 1953
17:34:20 [dlm]
dan if you are still on - rather than officially protesting the chairs decision to set both f2f5 and f2f6 when the mandate was for f2f only, can i just request that video teleconference or some broad bandwidth option be made available for people who can not go to england twice in a row for f2f meetings
17:35:22 [las]
deb -- did you get my /msg?
17:35:24 [Zakim]
17:35:24 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
17:35:34 [dlm]
whops no - where should i look for /msg
17:35:52 [jhendler]
timf - you here?
17:35:53 [DanCon]
RRSAgent, stop