15:40:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:40:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webont
15:40:19 <DanCon> Zakim, this will be WebO
15:40:20 <Zakim> ok, DanCon
15:53:18 <DanConn> DanConn has joined #webont
15:54:21 <libby> libby has joined #webont
15:58:44 <schreiber> schreiber has joined #webont
15:59:03 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:59:09 <Zakim> +John_Stanton
16:00:28 <DanCon> DanCon has joined #webont
16:00:30 <Zakim> +??P13
16:00:43 <Zakim> +??P14
16:00:51 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:00:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, ??P13, ??P14
16:00:53 <Zakim> +??P15
16:00:54 <Zakim> +??P16
16:00:59 <Zakim> +Marwan_Sabbouh
16:01:04 <libby> I think I'm ??P14
16:01:05 <schreiber> regrets: Dean, Oberst, Wallace, Marchiori, ter Horst, Trastour, Yanosy
16:01:08 <Zakim> + +1.610.758.aaaa
16:01:20 <schreiber> zakim, ??p13 is GuusS
16:01:22 <Zakim> +GuusS; got it
16:01:23 <libby> zakim, ??P14 is libby
16:01:24 <Zakim> +Libby; got it
16:01:25 <Zakim> +??P19
16:01:33 <Zakim> +??P20
16:01:34 <Zakim> +??P24
16:01:40 <Zakim> +M_Smith
16:01:47 <DanC> agenda + 22Aug http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0153.html
16:02:07 <pfps> pfps has joined #webont
16:02:15 <Zakim> +??P21
16:02:42 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 22Aug. scribe: DebM
16:02:52 <Zakim> + +1.908.233.aabb
16:02:52 <Zakim> +??P25
16:03:04 <schreiber> zakim, ??p20 is OraL
16:03:05 <Zakim> +OraL; got it
16:03:07 <Zakim> +??P27
16:03:15 <pfps> what is the page that gives Zakim status
16:03:22 <DanCon> DanCon has joined #webont
16:03:27 <Raphael> Raphael has joined #webont
16:03:31 <Raphael> Hi
16:03:39 <DanCon> hi
16:03:58 <jhendler> jhendler has joined #webont
16:04:00 <Zakim> +DanC
16:04:12 <jhendler> JimH running late - be on phone in 2-3 min = please start w/o me.
16:04:13 <Zakim> +??P29
16:04:47 <frankh> frankh has joined #webont
16:05:01 <dlm> dlm has joined #webont
16:05:14 <DanCon> q+
16:05:17 <DanCon> q-
16:05:20 <DanCon> q+
16:05:22 <dlm> mcguinness scribing
16:05:23 <DanCon> ack DanC
16:05:26 <dlm> Regrets:  Borden, Carroll, Motta, de Roo, Stein (tentative)
16:05:38 <DanCon> q-
16:05:41 <dlm> q+
16:05:42 <Zakim> +Pat_Hayes
16:05:46 <dlm> q-
16:05:48 <Zakim> -GuusS
16:06:13 <Zakim> +??P13
16:06:43 <DanCon> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:06:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, ??P16, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh, +1.610.758.aaaa, ??P19, OraL, ??P24, M_Smith, ??P21, ??P25, +1.908.233.aabb, ??P27, DanC, ??P29, Pat_Hayes,
16:06:46 <Zakim> ... ??P13
16:06:56 <schreiber> Dean, Oberst, Wallace, Marchiori, ter Horst, Trastour, Yanosy
16:06:59 <Zakim> +Jim_Hendler
16:07:11 <schreiber> Regrets: Dean, Oberst, Wallace, Marchiori, ter Horst, Trastour, Yanosy
16:07:13 <dlm> screiber's listing was additional regrets
16:07:32 <DanCon> I prefer an edited version of the IRC log afterward, but maybe that's just me; we'll see whether IRC logs are sufficient when we get to 1.2 on today's agenda.
16:07:43 <DanCon> Zakim, who's talkings?
16:07:44 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, DanCon.
16:07:47 <DanCon> Zakim, who's talking?
16:07:58 <Zakim> DanCon, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Marwan_Sabbouh (83%), DanC (80%)
16:08:06 <DanCon> Zakim, who's talking?
16:08:17 <Zakim> DanCon, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Marwan_Sabbouh (4%)
16:08:19 <Zakim> +??P31
16:08:38 <timfinin> timfinin has joined #webont
16:08:42 <DanCon> Zakim, mute Marwan
16:08:43 <Zakim> Marwan_Sabbouh should now be muted
16:09:07 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:09:07 <dlm> 6 0 # unmutes yourself
16:09:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, ??P16, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), +1.610.758.aaaa, ??P19, OraL, ??P24, M_Smith, ??P21, ??P25, +1.908.233.aabb, ??P27, DanC, ??P29,
16:09:10 <Zakim> ... Pat_Hayes, ??P13, Jim_Hendler, ??P31
16:09:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see timfinin, dlm, frankh, jhendler, Raphael, DanCon, pfps, schreiber, libby, Zakim, RRSAgent, logger_1
16:09:56 <dlm> stanton miller marwan ora smith connolly hayes hendler
16:10:08 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P16 is FrankvH
16:10:09 <Zakim> +FrankvH; got it
16:10:14 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P16 is TimF
16:10:16 <Zakim> sorry, DanCon, I do not recognize a party named '??P16'
16:10:20 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P19 is IanH
16:10:21 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
16:10:27 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P27 is DebM
16:10:28 <Zakim> +DebM; got it
16:10:38 <DanCon> Zakim, aabb is PeterPS
16:10:40 <Zakim> +PeterPS; got it
16:10:47 <DanCon> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:10:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, FrankvH, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), +1.610.758.aaaa, IanH, OraL, ??P24, M_Smith, ??P21, ??P25, PeterPS, DebM, DanC, ??P29, Pat_Hayes,
16:10:49 <timfinin> zakim, ??p16 is timfinin
16:10:51 <Zakim> ... ??P13, Jim_Hendler, ??P31
16:10:52 <Zakim> sorry, timfinin, I do not recognize a party named '??p16'
16:11:01 <DanCon> Zakim, ??p24 is Guus
16:11:05 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
16:11:09 <DanCon> Zakim, ??p25 is EvanW
16:11:11 <Zakim> +EvanW; got it
16:11:13 <DanCon> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:11:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, FrankvH, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), +1.610.758.aaaa, IanH, OraL, Guus, M_Smith, ??P21, EvanW, PeterPS, DebM, DanC, ??P29, Pat_Hayes,
16:11:16 <Zakim> ... ??P13, Jim_Hendler, ??P31
16:11:41 <DanCon> Zakim, aaaa is TimF
16:11:42 <Zakim> +TimF; got it
16:11:49 <DanCon> Zakim, ??p29 is LarryE
16:11:51 <Zakim> +LarryE; got it
16:12:02 <DanCon> Zakim, ??p21 is JeffH
16:12:03 <Zakim> +JeffH; got it
16:12:05 <jhendler> zakim, tell Ralph he should have a faster way to identify the ??P.. folks (i.e. something like zakim, name LarryE - and it will pick a random one and assign it)
16:12:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'tell Ralph he should have a faster way to identify the ??P.. folks (i.e. something like zakim, name LarryE - and it will pick a random one and assign it)',
16:12:08 <Zakim> ... jhendler.  Try /msg Zakim help
16:12:10 <DanCon> Zakim, ??p31 is Rudiger
16:12:12 <Zakim> +Rudiger; got it
16:12:16 <DanCon> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:12:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, FrankvH, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), TimF, IanH, OraL, Guus, M_Smith, JeffH, EvanW, PeterPS, DebM, DanC, LarryE, Pat_Hayes, ??P13,
16:12:20 <Zakim> ... Jim_Hendler, Rudiger
16:12:25 <DanCon> oh well.
16:12:29 <dlm> list above is attendance
16:12:33 <Zakim> + +44.117.311.aacc
16:12:33 <Zakim> +??P1
16:12:41 <Raphael> Raphael has joined #webont
16:12:59 <jhendler> zakim, ??p1 is steve buswell
16:13:00 <Zakim> I don't understand '??p1 is steve buswell', jhendler.  Try /msg Zakim help
16:13:16 <jhendler> zakim, ??p1 is buswell
16:13:17 <Zakim> +Buswell; got it
16:13:41 <dlm> meeting record accepted posted at http://www.w3.org/2002/08/15-webont-irc
16:14:02 <DanCon> Zakim, who's talking?
16:14:12 <Zakim> DanCon, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +44.117.311.aacc (25%), ??P13 (84%), EvanW (4%), Jim_Hendler (10%), DanC (4%)
16:14:33 <dlm> no agenda amendments
16:14:46 <Zakim> +Lynn_Stein
16:14:48 <DanCon> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:14:49 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Buswell
16:14:52 <DanCon> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:14:55 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Libby
16:15:03 <DanCon> Zakim, pick a scribe
16:15:04 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose TimF
16:15:13 <dlm> scribe next week? buswell nominated, not on irc, miller nominated, finin nominated
16:15:23 <dlm> finin accepts
16:15:44 <las> las has joined #webont
16:15:54 <las> zakim, who is here?
16:15:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Libby, FrankvH, ??P15, Marwan_Sabbouh (muted), TimF, IanH, OraL, Guus, M_Smith, JeffH, EvanW, PeterPS, DebM, DanC, LarryE, Pat_Hayes, ??P13,
16:15:57 <Zakim> ... Jim_Hendler, Rudiger, +44.117.311.aacc, Buswell, Lynn_Stein
16:15:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see las, Raphael, timfinin, dlm, frankh, jhendler, DanCon, pfps, schreiber, libby, Zakim, RRSAgent, logger_1
16:16:00 <dlm> ftf schedule - hotel info forwarded from guus, mcguinness included weblink, people requested to make their own hotel reservations
16:16:37 <dlm> schreiber posted both f2f5 and f2f6 locations (not just f2f5)
16:16:38 <DanCon> deb's msg about ftf4 hotels http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0155.html
16:17:13 <dlm> chairs were to decide f2f5 location
16:17:18 <dlm> 3 points:
16:17:26 <dlm> 1 - even distribution between europe and us
16:17:40 <dlm> 2 colocation with plenary in march in boston is desirable
16:18:00 <dlm> 3 many things may be needed to get things inplace for discussion
16:18:36 <dlm> two meetings in a row in england
16:19:01 <dlm> are now proposed
16:19:17 <Zakim> +??P3
16:19:51 <dlm> stein points to center of mass for participants and suggests that the split between europe and us evenly does not meet the center of mass
16:20:20 <dlm> eastern us is closer to center of mass for participants
16:21:00 <dlm> maintaining 3 in us and 3 in europe seems an arbitrary decision
16:22:09 <dlm> manchester has an access grid room
16:22:47 <dlm> one choice point is 2 meetings in england now or two meetings in the us in 2003
16:24:18 <dlm> decision wasabout f2f 5
16:24:41 <dlm> flipped a coin and picked manchester
16:24:55 <dlm> can appeal the decision out of the telecon
16:25:01 <dlm> pat action done
16:25:20 <dlm> eshelman continued
16:25:40 <dlm> eshelman asks for part-whole examples to be sent to him, schreiber asks for sending to group as well
16:25:44 <dlm> raphael done
16:25:48 <dlm> hendler continued
16:25:57 <dlm> dan c done on f2f record
16:26:01 <dlm> carroll continued
16:26:11 <dlm> chairs forwarding hotel done
16:26:18 <dlm> chairs determine f2f5 done
16:26:21 <DanCon> ftf record now has model theory summary http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf3.html  $Revision: 1.43 $ of $Date: 2002/08/22 17:37:23 $
16:26:28 <dlm> schreiber wine example continued
16:26:35 <dlm> dlm continued closed world
16:26:43 <dlm> guus will take 2 weeks for uml doc
16:26:53 <dlm> hendler inform semantic web group done
16:27:05 <dlm> chairs process for rdf/owl comparison doc continued
16:27:19 <dlm> hendler's aboved discussed in cg
16:27:25 <dlm> item 3 
16:27:35 <dlm> input: http://www.coginst.uwf.edu/users/phayes/RDFS2OWL-C.html
16:27:50 <dlm> references also to pfps's and dan's in email
16:28:03 <dlm> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/att-0082/01-semantics.html
16:28:04 <dlm> Dan's MT
16:28:04 <dlm> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/0208.html
16:28:08 <DanCon> Zakim, is pat here?
16:28:10 <Zakim> probably, DanCon; Pat_Hayes arrived 22 minutes ago
16:29:23 <dlm> pat - pfps's model theory for abstract syntax
16:29:33 <dlm> rendering of abstract syntax into rdf
16:30:01 <dlm> as input
16:30:13 <dlm> did a transliteration of semantic conditions from pfps's model theory
16:30:23 <dlm> and stated as structural interpretation
16:30:41 <dlm> showed one could construct and rdf interpretation that was a structural interpretation
16:31:21 <dlm> construction of rdf interpretation for owl has 2 stages
16:31:25 <dlm> pfps model theory
16:31:40 <dlm> move the interpretation over to rdf 
16:31:46 <dlm> assigns interpretations to subgraphs
16:31:53 <dlm> that may not be an rdfs interpretation
16:31:59 <dlm> need to assign truth values
16:32:19 <dlm> could be uniformly extended to an rdfs interpretation that comes out with the same truth values
16:32:31 <dlm> there is an rdfs interpretation that satisfies the owl model theory
16:32:39 <dlm> there is a "devious trick"
16:32:51 <dlm> extension mapping refers to the notion of validity of the first kind of model
16:33:08 <dlm> for more details refer to pats document
16:34:44 <dlm> questions - pfps - claims pats claims are false
16:35:07 <dlm> pfps has examples of entailments valid in one and not the other
16:35:26 <DanCon> Peter's point seems well made, to me.
16:36:15 <dlm> horrocks - can have an example of one thing in domain of discourse in owl and claim not true in pat's
16:37:16 <dlm> hayes - semantics for rdfs graphs  and follows rdfs rules
16:37:25 <dlm> classes can exist that are not owl:class
16:38:13 <dlm> all things in IR will be larger than in one for OWL, but this is irrelevent
16:38:36 <dlm> hayes not not reproduce all aspects of pfps's model theory
16:39:14 <dlm> clarification - hendler - key differences between hayes and dan's view
16:39:22 <DanCon> Zakim, who's talking?
16:39:33 <Zakim> DanCon, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +44.117.311.aacc (28%), ??P13 (9%), Pat_Hayes (89%)
16:39:38 <dlm> should be dan/jeremy view
16:40:11 <Zakim> - +44.117.311.aacc
16:40:38 <dlm> dan/jeremy propose a strategy that is too limiting and hayes claims that his does not require the strong limitations
16:41:25 <dlm> hayes claims a version of pfps's model theory that is compatible with rdfs - not capturing the semantic structures but hayes claims the truth
16:41:53 <dlm> horrocks - points out a bug
16:42:14 <DanCon> ooh... interesting... negation w.r.t. owl:Thing. hmm...
16:42:15 <dlm> hayes says subclass of owl entities not rdfs entities
16:43:01 <dlm> horrocks - the task hayes has may be too hard to do in a short time period
16:43:49 <dlm> smith - what is the advantage of taking a straight forward and readable model theory and writing it in this form
16:43:57 <dlm> hayes - clarifies relationship to rdfs
16:44:18 <dlm> smith - how do people think of this language?
16:44:55 <dlm> 3 languages?  
16:45:06 <dlm> hard to keep the prefixes right - smith
16:45:20 <dlm> hayes - consider the rdfs family
16:46:11 <dlm> van harmelen - what is the fate of the pfps proposed counter examples?
16:46:37 <dlm> pfps claims the problem is hayes does not have enough classes
16:46:58 <dlm> does the intersection of student and class exist?  asks connolly
16:47:03 <dlm> hayes - yes
16:47:19 <dlm> pfps - the list, the sequence  but not the intersection
16:47:31 <dlm> does it exist for pfps's version?  
16:47:42 <dlm> the problem does not arise for pfps's version
16:48:36 <dlm> hayes -this may be the answer for hayes too
16:48:55 <dlm> hayes has an action item to go back and look at pfps's first example again
16:49:28 <dlm> horrocks - what about sequences  (e.g., intersection of a b a )
16:49:47 <dlm> hayes - can not have loops but he means to allow repetition
16:50:00 <dlm> this is just a bug;  should allow for duplication
16:50:40 <dlm> horrocks - what is the interpretation of thing?
16:50:51 <dlm> hayes - owl:thing
16:51:18 <dlm> what is the interpretation of A or not A
16:51:24 <dlm> hayes - true
16:51:25 <Zakim> -Buswell
16:51:50 <dlm> action - more thought is required  because of the complementation issue
16:53:24 <dlm> what is the minimum interpretation?
16:53:52 <dlm> a number of questions are arising on what is the interpretation of proposed classes such as the union of B and its complement?
16:54:32 <dlm> horrocks - we dont know how to do great horned owl
16:54:51 <dlm> hayes - lets not focus on great horned owl
16:55:51 <dlm> connolly suggests that this is the same problem he found in his model theory and he never found a fix 
16:57:48 <dlm> if classes are in domain of discourse, then problems occur with cardinality of domain
16:57:58 <dlm> domains have minimum size
16:58:14 <dlm> rdfs has minimum size
16:58:36 <dlm> great horned owl domain is infinite
17:00:19 <dlm> horrocks points out that everything that follows in owl does not follow in great horned owl
17:02:08 <dlm> horrocks claims there is no inbetween world that conforms to owl
17:02:54 <dlm> i.e, the entailments are not the same as those in pfps' model theory
17:04:25 <dlm> the point is reraised that this task that hayes has may be too hard to be solved in a reasonable time for this working group
17:05:13 <dlm> dark triples handles the problem in another way but in a way that "ignores rdf"
17:05:45 <dlm> van harmelen - we have now clarified the bind but we do not have a resolution
17:05:59 <dlm> horrocks - pfps' proposal is a solution
17:06:10 <dlm> van harmelen  - but it does not show a relationship between owl and rdfs
17:06:25 <dlm> smith - we need to have a statement of the relationship (possibly leaving out features)
17:07:25 <dlm> hendler - do we really have a proposal that is fully worked out (other than a solution where everything is dark)?
17:08:01 <Zakim> +LynnT
17:08:24 <dlm> will someone take an action to write such a proposal?
17:09:43 <dlm> pfps - the charter of the working group could be satisfied without this by using the syntax of rdfs but not the semantics
17:14:10 <dlm> Possible ACTION - Hayes will do a revision by Monday that addresses major points raised
17:14:20 <dlm> horrocks questions if this makes sense
17:16:48 <dlm> possible action above is real action
17:17:14 <jhendler> ACTION: Hayes will do a revision of his MT document that addresses major points raised
17:20:30 <frankh> q+
17:20:48 <schreiber> ack frankh
17:21:01 <frankh> q-
17:21:03 <dlm> frank - tradeoff between speed of progress vs. quality of main result
17:22:11 <dlm> the hope would be that pat would be successful yielding a more acceptable group mt
17:23:20 <dlm> horrocks would like a time limit set on the MT proposal
17:24:05 <dlm> other proposals could be refined in the time period
17:24:25 <dlm> request for messages clarifying issues dependent upon this
17:24:55 <dlm> suggestion - in 2 weeks take stock again of the mt situation
17:26:38 <dlm> class problem - there are too many for pfps mt and too few for what hayes wants
17:26:54 <dlm> agreed - 2 week discussion period on MT
17:28:50 <DanCon> maybe peter could type it?
17:29:04 <dlm> ACTION - pfps will do a revision of his MT that clarifies the relationship between his MT and rdfs 
17:29:23 <dlm> and peter will attempt to make this relationship non trivial
17:29:55 <Zakim> -Libby
17:29:56 <Zakim> -Marwan_Sabbouh
17:29:57 <Zakim> -M_Smith
17:29:58 <Zakim> -??P3
17:29:59 <Zakim> -Guus
17:29:59 <Zakim> -LynnT
17:30:00 <Zakim> -FrankvH
17:30:00 <Zakim> -OraL
17:30:02 <Zakim> -John_Stanton
17:30:03 <Zakim> -TimF
17:30:04 <Zakim> -??P13
17:30:07 <Zakim> -??P15
17:30:10 <Zakim> -Lynn_Stein
17:30:12 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes
17:30:13 <Zakim> -JeffH
17:30:15 <DanCon> evidently not
17:30:17 <Zakim> -Rudiger
17:30:18 <Zakim> -EvanW
17:30:19 <libby> ;)
17:30:20 <jhendler> irc or phone?
17:30:30 <Zakim> -PeterPS
17:30:34 <DanCon> I was hoping to follow up on the question PatH asked
17:30:44 <schreiber> dan, we did not discuss the role of your MT. Can you adjust also?
17:30:52 <Zakim> -Jim_Hendler
17:31:11 <DanCon> adjust: well, I could pretty it up with examples, but no, I don't know how to address the substantive objections
17:31:39 <dlm> does anyone know where the url for this record is?
17:31:42 <Zakim> -LarryE
17:31:44 <Zakim> -IanH
17:31:46 <DanCon> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:31:46 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2002/08/22-webont-irc#T17-31-46
17:31:53 <Zakim> -DebM
17:31:59 <DanCon> hang on while I fix the access control info, deb
17:32:02 <dlm> ok
17:32:32 <timfinin> today's discussion gave me a headache and made me think of this quote, which I am fond of, ""Confusionists and superficial intellectuals move ahead while the 'deep
17:32:32 <timfinin>         thinkers' descend into the darker regions of the status quo or, to express it
17:32:32 <timfinin>         in a different way, they remain stuck in the mud." -- Paul Feyerabend (1988)
17:33:05 <dlm> http://www.w3.org/2002/08/22-webont-irc#T17-31-46 shows up now
17:33:18 <DanCon> ok, great.
17:34:16 <jhendler> I prefer a different quote:
17:34:17 <jhendler> Mathematical ideas originate in empirics .. But, once they are so conceived, the subject begins to live a peculiar life of its own and is better compared to a creative one, governed almost entirely by aesthetical motivations ŠAs a mathematical discipline travels, or after much abstract inbreeding, [it] is in danger of degenerationŠwhenever this stage is reached, the only remedy seems to me to be the rejuvenating return to the source; the reinjec
17:34:18 <jhendler>   --- John Von Neumann, 1953
17:34:20 <dlm> dan if you are still on - rather than officially protesting the chairs decision to set both f2f5 and f2f6 when the mandate was for f2f only, can i just request that video teleconference or some broad bandwidth option be made available for people who can not go to england twice in a row for f2f meetings
17:35:22 <las> deb -- did you get my /msg?
17:35:24 <Zakim> -DanC
17:35:24 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
17:35:34 <dlm> whops no - where should i look for /msg
17:35:52 <jhendler> timf - you here?
17:35:53 <DanCon> RRSAgent, stop