13:59:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfcore
14:01:02 <mdean> mdean has joined #rdfcore
14:01:34 <DanConn> DanConn has joined #rdfcore
14:02:00 <DanConn> Zakim, what's the passcode?
14:02:01 <Zakim> sorry, DanConn, I don't know what conference this is
14:02:04 <DanConn> Zakim, this is RDF
14:02:06 <Zakim> ok, DanConn
14:02:12 <DanConn> agenda?
14:02:34 <DanConn> agenda + 16Aug http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Aug/0144.html
14:02:36 <em> zakim, who is here?
14:02:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P10, Manola, EricM, PatrickS, ??P14
14:02:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see DanConn, mdean, RRSAgent, Zakim, em, bwm, danbri, logger_1
14:03:07 <Zakim> +EricP
14:03:15 <DanConn> ericP?
14:03:21 <danbri> zakim, EricP is DanBri
14:03:23 <Zakim> +DanBri; got it
14:03:25 <DanConn> ah
14:03:36 <danbri> zakim, who is muted
14:03:37 <Zakim> danbri, you need to end that query with '?'
14:03:38 <Zakim> +DanC
14:03:39 <danbri> zakim, who is muted?
14:03:40 <Zakim> I see no one muted
14:03:47 <em> zakim, ??P10 is BrianM
14:03:48 <Zakim> +BrianM; got it
14:03:57 <em> zakim, ??P14 is SteveP
14:03:58 <Zakim> +SteveP; got it
14:04:24 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
14:04:37 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:04:38 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
14:04:40 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:04:41 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricM
14:04:55 <mdean> Mike Dean is scribing
14:05:01 <DanConn> DanConn has changed the topic to: RDFCore 16Aug. scribe: MikeD
14:05:14 <DanConn> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:05:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see BrianM, Manola, EricM, PatrickS, SteveP, DanBri, DanC, Mike_Dean
14:05:16 <danbri> zakim, who is here?
14:05:17 <em> zakim, who is here?
14:05:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see BrianM, Manola, EricM, PatrickS, SteveP, DanBri, DanC, Mike_Dean
14:05:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see BrianM, Manola, EricM, PatrickS, SteveP, DanBri, DanC, Mike_Dean
14:05:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see DanConn, mdean, RRSAgent, Zakim, em, bwm, danbri, logger_1
14:06:00 <mdean> regrets:  Jos, Aaron, Jan Grant, Sergey, Dave Beckett, Jeremy Carroll
14:06:29 <mdean> Frank Manola proposes WG sing happy birthday to Frank
14:06:30 <danbri> zakim, mute danbri
14:06:31 <Zakim> DanBri should now be muted
14:06:56 <mdean> next telecon same time next week
14:07:08 <mdean> no other agenda changes
14:07:21 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:07:23 <em> zakim, pick a victim.
14:07:23 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Manola
14:07:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick a victim.', em.  Try /msg Zakim help
14:07:26 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:07:28 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Manola
14:07:30 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:07:32 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricM
14:07:34 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:07:35 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveP
14:08:34 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:08:35 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricM
14:08:37 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:08:38 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike_Dean
14:08:40 <DanConn> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:08:42 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanBri (muted)
14:08:44 <mdean> Eric Miller will scribe next week if he's here (babysitting)
14:09:05 <mdean> reviewing action list
14:09:29 <mdean> minutes of July 19 missing?
14:09:30 <danbri> zakim, unmute danbri
14:09:31 <Zakim> DanBri should no longer be muted
14:10:05 <DanConn> 19 July IRC log: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc#T14-54-10
14:10:35 <mdean> DanBri:  split between 2 authors with IRC access vs. time
14:10:55 <em> http://www.w3.org/2002/07/19-rdfcore-irc.html
14:10:57 <mdean> IRC log was submitted and accepted as minutes
14:11:40 <mdean> approval of last week's minutes postponed due to late availability
14:12:00 <mdean> Brian will check IRC log against his action list
14:12:27 <DanConn> Zakim, who's talking?
14:12:28 <danbri> zakim, drop danbri
14:12:29 <Zakim> DanBri is being disconnected
14:12:29 <Zakim> -DanBri
14:12:31 <mdean> reviewing long list state of completed actions
14:12:37 <bwm_> bwm_ has joined #rdfcore
14:12:38 <Zakim> DanConn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DanC (29%)
14:13:34 <mdean> no objections to actions being closed off
14:13:35 <DanConn> === 8: daml:collection test case - volunteer to complete
14:14:08 <mdean> DanC has anyone implemented parseType="Literal"?
14:14:11 <mdean> bwm:  ARP has
14:14:38 <mdean> EricM:  validator produces ntriples
14:14:59 <mdean> ACTION:  bwm to complete test case
14:15:04 <Zakim> +DanBri
14:15:38 <mdean> item 9:  
14:16:23 <mdean> DanC:  dark triple request from WebOnt may have gone away
14:16:45 <danbri> Should note that there is active discussion on www-rdf-logic about layering amongst Horrocks, Guha and other WG members
14:16:51 <mdean> ACTION:  bwm ask SWCG to check priority of dark triples requirement
14:16:55 <mdean> item 10:
14:17:25 <mdean> em:  wanted to confirm with bwm as series editor
14:17:34 <mdean> em:  additional pubrules cleanups, etc.
14:17:38 <DanConn> validator looks buggy w.r.t. parseType="Literal"
14:17:46 <mdean> bwm:  go ahead
14:18:34 <mdean> em:  WG previously approved publication
14:18:45 <mdean> ACTION:  em publish GUIDE
14:18:55 <mdean> additional regrets:  Graham
14:19:13 <mdean> bwm:  on 19th, discussed detailed review of individual documents
14:19:26 <mdean> em:  WG didn't get to this
14:20:17 <mdean> em:  editors indicated that they would all need to include material on datatypes - more than an editorial change for last call - need to integrate and review schedule
14:20:40 <mdean> em:  would require 2 reviews:  current and with datatypes
14:22:01 <mdean> Frank:  PRIMER doesn't yet address parseType="Collection" since it hasn't appeared in SYNTAX yet
14:22:42 <mdean> Frank:  newer draft of July 25 on server now
14:23:14 <DanConn> "on the server"... which server? where?
14:23:16 <mdean> DanBri:  more work needed before review - would like another week
14:23:49 <DanConn> #
14:23:50 <DanConn> * new Primer version Frank Manola (Thu, Jul 25 2002) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jul/0156.html
14:23:59 <mdean> review SCHEMA week of August 30
14:24:08 <mdean> PRIMER also August 30
14:25:01 <DanConn> 0156 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/rdf-primer-20020725.html
14:25:49 <Zakim> +Pat_Hayes
14:26:48 <mdean> Pat:  Model Theory waiting for data type resolution
14:27:25 <mdean> Frank:  DanBri may want to look at current PRIMER re schema
14:28:03 <mdean> item 12:  namespace test case / vs. #
14:28:15 <mdean> APPROVED
14:28:37 <mdean> item 13:  review of OWL Working Drafts
14:29:17 <mdean> Pat:  mentioned on WebOnt telecon yesterday that this is not a formal request
14:29:47 <mdean> suggest emailing individual comments directly
14:30:54 <mdean> some ambiguity about data types in Working Drafts:  waiting for RDF Core or not
14:31:25 <mdean> also bring any relevant comments to RDF Core WG
14:31:37 <mdean> recent TAG discussions
14:32:11 <mdean> DanC:  based on detailed comments, lots of changes likely
14:32:34 <mdean> DanC:  TAG hasn't decided that RDF is broken and we need to respond
14:32:43 <danbri> re webont, see http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-absyn/ [[
14:32:46 <danbri> As the RDF Core WG has not yet produced a feature for datatyping in RDF this document includes its own solution for datatyping, assuming that issue 5.8 will be resolved in favour of OWL having its own datatyping facilities.
14:32:49 <danbri> ]]
14:33:13 <danbri> (sorry, didn't add this before we moved into TAG agenda item)
14:33:17 <mdean> issue 14 not resolved by this document
14:33:22 <mdean> item 15:  datatypes
14:34:42 <mdean> bwm:  2 things outstanding:  1) replace local type idiom bNodes with xsi:type in Literal node
14:34:53 <mdean> bwm:  implementers seem to like this
14:35:38 <DanConn> "two sources of information"?
14:36:04 <mdean> Pat:  structured literals not inherent problem for Model Theory, but requires looking at both literals and graph vs. just graph
14:36:23 <mdean> Pat:  no serious objections
14:36:54 <mdean> DanC:  replacement vs. supporting both?
14:38:28 <mdean> DanC:  received some negative feedback on incorporating xsd:date
14:39:43 <mdean> DanC:  quad is a dis-server, really a union:  string, language-qualified string, XML blob, etc.
14:40:01 <mdean> Patrick:  this is essentially a third proposal
14:40:24 <mdean> Pat:  union is perhaps closer to Guha's original proposal
14:42:04 <mdean> bwm:  second decision:  some fixed set of datatypes vs. extensible set identified by URI
14:42:13 <mdean> bwm:  third issue:  tidiness
14:43:56 <mdean> DanC:  proposals need to address each of these issues, but deciding issues independently may not produce a good result (based on XML experience)
14:44:36 <mdean> em:  not looking at this from a holistic perspective
14:44:54 <mdean> need to also look at CC/PP and other use cases
14:45:07 <mdean> DanC objects to compartmentalizing discussion
14:45:12 <mdean> bwm:  good point
14:45:59 <mdean> bwm:  should we ask "datatyping subgroup" (Sergey, Pat, Patrick) to work this into a proposal?
14:47:10 <DanConn> so... have the 3 datatypes editors proposed something to the WG? pointer?
14:47:58 <mdean> Patrick:  this is an unnecessary sidetrack (minor issue) vs. more important issues such as tidiness
14:48:37 <mdean> Pat:  this proposal won't solve the big problems
14:49:10 <mdean> DanC:  orthogonal issue, but may solve a big problem from the user perspective
14:49:53 <mdean> Patrick opposed to built-in native types such as int
14:50:29 <mdean> or xsd:int
14:51:18 <mdean> Patrick's latest ++-- proposal:  RDF should be agnostic, just providing mechanism
14:52:09 <mdean> Patrick happy with datatype nodes, but concerned about nature of label and constraints upon it
14:53:50 <em> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/ -> # Datatyping Discussion Document (editor's working draft) ... no link
14:54:55 <em> patrick, can you send a link?
14:55:37 <mdean> ACTION:  patrick send URI for latest draft circulated to group
15:00:02 <mdean> Pat:  local idiom does impact long-range (global) datatyping -- e.g. decision to use string in absence of xsi:type
15:00:30 <mdean> Patrick:  CC/PP wants to use rdfs:range to type literals
15:00:45 <DanConn> q?
15:01:04 <em> q+
15:02:31 <mdean> bwm:  are there other use cases besides rdfs:range where we would get type and values separately
15:02:47 <DanConn> hmm... you have to type rdf:parseType="Literal" every time.
15:02:57 <DanConn> why not xsd:integer?
15:03:34 <Zakim> -BrianM
15:03:45 <DanConn> did we really lose BrianM?
15:04:02 <mdean> mdean:  local Restrictions are an example
15:04:05 <em> so RDF had a requirement/desire/hope not to rely on RDF Schemas///
15:04:15 <mdean> ACTION:  MDean to write-up use case
15:04:16 <em> s /BrianM/SteveP
15:04:26 <mdean> Patrick:  CC/PP is also such a use case
15:04:36 <em> i think we lost SteveP
15:05:05 <DanConn> q?
15:07:46 <danbri> timecheck: Fri Aug 16 11:07:15 EDT 2002
15:08:11 <DanConn> q?
15:10:49 <DanConn> q?
15:11:11 <mdean> ACTION:  bwm to summarize responses from community on datatype question for next week
15:11:17 <DanConn> ack DanC
15:11:18 <Zakim> DanConn, you wanted to say: I'm interested in *anything* that (a) all three of PatH, Sergey, and PeterS agree, and (b) explicitly addresses the use cases we've seen: dublin core,
15:11:21 <Zakim> ... cc/pp, DAML. with RDF/XML examples, and maybe n-triples correspondence.
15:13:27 <mdean> Sergey off for next 2 weeks
15:13:57 <mdean> em:  could Mike or Guha represent his views temporarily?
15:14:26 <mdean> em:  able to provide teleconferencing for small groups that want to discuss datatypes
15:17:02 <mdean> bwm:  meeting closed
15:18:02 <em> a example for the dublincore group would be how to represent a date in iso8601
15:18:40 <em> <dc:date><xx:is8601><rdf:value>2002-03-04</rdf:value></xx:iso8601></dc:date> ....
15:18:43 <danbri> yeah. Similar for RSS, events, calendaring.
15:18:43 <em> or...
15:18:58 <em> <dc:date xsi:type="xx:iso8601>2002-03-04</dc:date>
15:18:59 <em> or..
15:19:06 <em> this would be helpfule
15:19:53 <em> come up with a proposal based on all of the evidence, present this to the group and ask how much this would hurt
15:20:16 <em> my guess is that the group is simply looking for an indication of how to do this... and they *will* do this
15:20:41 <em> "the group" includes DC, RSS, etc. 
15:21:03 <em> hmm... Adobe might be as well
15:22:57 <danbri> Mozilla/Netscape-AOL have a working practice for RDF datatyping
15:23:07 <Zakim> -Manola
15:23:18 <danbri> Zakim, DanBri is EricP
15:23:19 <Zakim> +EricP; got it
15:23:27 <em> ??
15:23:30 <danbri> Zakim, EricP is temporarily DanBri
15:23:31 <Zakim> +DanBri; got it
15:23:35 <em> ah
15:23:41 <danbri> :)
15:25:18 <em> zakim, who is here?
15:25:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see EricM, PatrickS, SteveP, DanC, Mike_Dean, DanBri, Pat_Hayes
15:25:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see bwm_, DanConn, mdean, RRSAgent, Zakim, em, danbri, logger_1
15:25:53 <em> zakim, SteveP is BrianM
15:25:54 <Zakim> +BrianM; got it
15:47:34 <em> folks, i'm going to have to run.... thnks for the bar talk
15:51:22 <Zakim> -DanBri
15:51:30 <danbri> danbri has left #rdfcore
15:53:08 <Zakim> -EricM
16:18:47 <Zakim> -DanC
16:19:18 <Zakim> -BrianM
16:19:18 <Zakim> -PatrickS
16:19:21 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes
16:19:23 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:19:24 <Zakim> SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has ended
17:48:06 <em> em has left #rdfcore
18:08:29 <DanConn> DanConn has left #rdfcore