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15:53:15 <DanCon> Zakim, this will be WEBO
15:53:16 <Zakim> ok, DanCon
15:54:34 <frankh> frankh has joined #webont
15:55:52 <DanCon> frap; still didn't update the ftf record
15:56:06 <DanCon> agenda + 15Aug http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Aug/0095.html
15:56:16 <DanCon> DanCon has changed the topic to: WebOnt 15 Aug
15:56:31 <DanCon> DanCon has changed the topic to: WebOnt 15 Aug. scribe: ???
15:57:41 <timfinin> timfinin has joined #webont
15:58:42 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:58:48 <Zakim> +??P10
15:59:09 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
15:59:38 <Zakim> +??P12
16:00:24 <Zakim> +??P15
16:00:28 <Zakim> +??P13
16:00:31 <Zakim> -??P12
16:00:41 <Zakim> +??P14
16:01:22 <Zakim> +DanC
16:01:26 <Zakim> +??P16
16:01:40 <DanCon> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P10, Evan_Wallace, ??P15, ??P13, ??P14, DanC, ??P16
16:01:55 <Zakim> +M_Smith
16:01:58 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P10 is TimF
16:01:59 <Zakim> +TimF; got it
16:02:09 <Zakim> +Ian_Horrocks
16:02:15 <DeborahMc> DeborahMc has joined #webont
16:02:17 <DanCon> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see TimF, Evan_Wallace, ??P15, ??P13, ??P14, DanC, ??P16, M_Smith, Ian_Horrocks
16:02:23 <Zakim> +Lassila
16:02:23 <Zakim> +??P19
16:02:25 <Zakim> +Jim_Hendler
16:02:33 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P19 is JonStanton
16:02:35 <Zakim> +JonStanton; got it
16:02:41 <jhendler> jhendler has joined #webont
16:02:45 <Zakim> +??P21
16:02:48 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P16 is DebM
16:02:49 <Zakim> +DebM; got it
16:02:54 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P21 is PeterPS
16:02:56 <Zakim> +PeterPS; got it
16:03:01 <DanCon> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see TimF, Evan_Wallace, ??P15, ??P13, ??P14, DanC, DebM, M_Smith, Ian_Horrocks, Lassila, JonStanton, Jim_Hendler, PeterPS
16:03:07 <IanH> IanH has joined #webont
16:03:13 <Zakim> +??P22
16:03:24 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P22 is NickG
16:03:26 <Zakim> +NickG; got it
16:03:26 <DanCon> larrye, guus
16:03:32 <DanCon> larrye, guus, frankvh
16:03:40 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P15 is GuusSchrieber
16:03:41 <Zakim> +GuusSchrieber; got it
16:03:50 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P13 is LarryE
16:03:52 <Zakim> +LarryE; got it
16:03:57 <DanCon> Zakim, ??P14 is FrankvH
16:03:58 <Zakim> +FrankvH; got it
16:04:01 <DanCon> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:04:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see TimF, Evan_Wallace, GuusSchrieber, LarryE, FrankvH, DanC, DebM, M_Smith, Ian_Horrocks, Lassila, JonStanton, Jim_Hendler, PeterPS, NickG
16:05:31 <jhendler> Roll call - 8 regrets - agenda plus Borden, Obrst, De Roo
16:06:03 <pfps> pfps has joined #webont
16:06:06 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:06:07 <jhendler> motion to adopt record of last meeting as true - RESOLVED
16:06:41 <jhendler> next telecon - Aug 22, at normal time
16:06:54 <jhendler> zakim, choose a scribe
16:06:55 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DebM
16:07:20 <jhendler> DebM to scribe next week.  (Ian regrets)
16:07:43 <jhendler> -- face to face schedule
16:08:12 <jhendler> Bristol f2f - we got some hotel info, chairs will distribute
16:08:29 <jhendler> ACTION: Guus to forward hotel info for f2f4 to WebOnt.
16:10:37 <jhendler> ACTION: JimH will forward the hotel information 
16:12:55 <Zakim> +Pat_Hayes
16:13:27 <jhendler> ACTION: group being split between NY and Manchester in preference, chairs will determine and inform group.
16:14:11 <jhendler> ACTION: jimH to announce WDs - DONE
16:14:31 <jhendler> ACTION: Editors subscribed to public comments - DONE
16:15:01 <jhendler> ACTION: Pat to develop new MT attempt - continued to Aug 19
16:15:14 <jhendler> ACTION: Eshelman to do example for document - CONT
16:15:30 <jhendler> ACTION: Evan W. to do OMG writeup  - DONE
16:15:41 <jhendler> ACTION: Raphael - to make large ontology available - CONT
16:15:52 <jhendler> ACTION - JimH test case 4.2 - CONT
16:16:06 <jhendler> ACTION - DanC/Pat re: f2f log - CONT
16:16:54 <jhendler> ACTION: Jim to solicit reviews for WDs - DONE
16:17:38 <jhendler> ACTION: Pfps note on issue 4.6 - DONE
16:17:50 <jhendler> ACTION: Jeremy Carroll to review .rdf suffixes - CONT
16:18:24 <jhendler> ACTION: Mike Dean to keep up to date a list of diffs from DAML (in editor's WD) - DONE
16:18:27 <jhendler> ---------------
16:18:30 <jhendler> Semantics 
16:18:35 <jhendler> Zakim, remind me in 25 minutes
16:18:36 <Zakim> ok, jhendler
16:18:59 <DeborahMc> http://www.daml.org/2002/06/webont/owl-ref-proposed  this is the link to editors copy
16:19:09 <DeborahMc> from the webont page for the ref document
16:19:56 <jhendler> -
16:20:19 <jhendler> Peter: Ian and I tried to write a small document summarizing the key entailment differences of the proposals
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16:20:40 <jhendler> Peter: one proposal doesn't care which way you do these (order wise)
16:20:44 <DanCon> DanCon has joined #webont
16:20:45 <jhendler> Other proposal - it does matter
16:21:03 <jhendler> DanC that's not quite right - issue is whether you mention in a premise, not issue of commutivity.
16:21:19 <jhendler> i.e. question is whether intersection necessarily exists or not
16:22:15 <jhendler> MikeS - but ifwer'e doing complex reasoning (transitivity, etc.) won't we risk missing things because of the lack of explicit mention?
16:22:36 <jhendler> Guus - do the problems arise just in OWL or in OWL Lite as well?  
16:22:43 <jhendler> Ian - maybe explicitely?
16:22:49 <jhendler> Dan - maybe not
16:23:19 <jhendler> Guus - can you give an example in normal Owl Lite?
16:23:32 <jhendler> Peter - example 1?  Dan - no, intersection not in Owl Lite
16:24:46 <jhendler> <discussion of this issue ensues - some discussion of exactly what causes the problems>
16:27:18 <jhendler> it appears that it may be possible to come up in OWL Lite - but may not come up often 
16:27:28 <jhendler> or may be hard to construct
16:28:02 <jhendler> Peter - invites discussion of first point - i.e. entailment differences
16:28:14 <pfps> owl lite requires owl:intersectionOf, see section 3.1 of the feature synopsis
16:29:02 <jhendler> Proposal 1 is Peter's, Proposal 2 is Dan's
16:29:23 <jhendler> (note: discussion is a message from pfps sent Aug 14 to WebOnt)
16:30:53 <jhendler> Ian discusses differences between Dan/Peter examples
16:31:04 <jhendler> Guus - but didn't Jos DeRoo show this could work?
16:31:22 <jhendler> Peter - know, hard to figure out how Jos' stuff handles this
16:31:28 <jhendler> s/know/no
16:31:58 <jhendler> <Discussion as to how Jos' proposal works, and whether it is same as Dan's or not>
16:32:23 <DeborahMc> peters point on section 3.1 implies that either intersection should be removed from 3.1 or it should be added in the listing in section 2
16:37:03 <jhendler> DanC - my proposal doesn't really cover the query case, but if Ont1 says "EngFurn = X or Y" and another says "EngFun = Y or X" then we can recognize they contain the same thing, but not that the logical statement that "A:engFurn sameClassAs B:engFurn"
16:37:24 <jhendler> <discussion of what happens when multiple cases used>
16:38:19 <jhendler> Pat - let's not argue cases - Dan, can you help better differentiate what you do and don't want.
16:38:54 <jhendler> Dan - what you don't get is conclusions that mention classes that are not in the premises
16:39:11 <jhendler> Pat - but you can still get non existential conlcusions?  Dan - yes.
16:39:43 <jhendler> DanC - may be similar to difference between DataLog and Horn Logics  (Peter - unclear if analogy is right)
16:40:06 <jhendler> Dan - Datalog is like Horn Logic but all function symbols are zero-ary
16:40:18 <jhendler> Dan - so all my axioms are essentially datalog axioms
16:41:02 <jhendler> pat - i.e. they don't allow "ForAll ... Exists" conclusions
16:41:16 <jhendler> Pat - this is a reasonably understood subclass of logic
16:41:57 <jhendler> JimH - other implications?  Do these have different layering?
16:42:18 <jhendler> Dan - I think mine does layer right on RDF(S) MT - not clear about other.
16:42:43 <jhendler> Dan - in mine you can make statements/give properties to classes.  Peter's may not allow that
16:43:35 <Zakim> jhendler, you asked to be reminded at this time
16:44:20 <jhendler> Peter - my proposal does not have entailments that allow properties of classnames to effect there extensions  (DanC/Pat - i.e. cannot say "if I like a class then blueberries are in it")
16:44:59 <jhendler> Peter - cannot say "for all classes, if the class has blueberry in it - then I like it"
16:45:17 <jhendler> <Discussion of whether Dan can do this>
16:46:18 <jhendler> Guus - it would be great if we could get some nice specific examples of what one loses or gains with this example (JimH adds and also relationship to RDF and RDFS if they are different)
16:46:58 <jhendler> (Guus notes today's discussion seemed profitable because we are getting specific, rather than "arguing theology")
16:47:37 <jhendler> pfps - we won't end up with a representation langauge by focusing on examples/test cases
16:47:51 <jhendler> (JimH notes that the charter is not to come up with a KR language...)
16:48:34 <jhendler> DanC - examples like using FunctionalProperty (or functionalProperty) - can it be range of property? are also needed.  
16:49:07 <jhendler> Guus - so can we get some examples generated that are specific?
16:50:06 <jhendler> Ian - haven't we discussed this enough?  DO we have a logically nice language, or do we want to have an RDFally nice logic?  <discussion as to whether we have consensus on this>
16:51:12 <jhendler> Ian - perhaps we should take straw polls on the discussions and proposals.
16:52:01 <jhendler> Guus - can you give me a straw poll question
16:52:15 <jhendler> Ian - which of the two poposals (p1 = Peter, p2 = dan)
16:52:19 <jhendler> do you favor?
16:52:36 <jhendler> Guus - why not try - let's take straw poll.
16:52:38 <DanCon> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:52:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see TimF, Evan_Wallace, GuusSchrieber, LarryE, FrankvH, DanC, DebM, M_Smith, Ian_Horrocks, Lassila, JonStanton, Jim_Hendler, PeterPS, NickG, Mike_Dean, Pat_Hayes
16:53:54 <DanCon> 2 a a 1 a 2 a 1 1 a a 2 1 a a a
16:54:30 <jhendler> straw poll - P1 (4), P2 (3), Abst (9) 
16:54:59 <jhendler> feeling we need to come back next week after Pat's Action is done.
16:55:01 <jhendler> ----------
16:55:13 <jhendler> Move to item 4  -- GUIDE progress
16:56:03 <jhendler> Mike S - Raphael and I are writing like mad - we've adopted the approach of "ontology as a set of example" - expect a draft form in a couple of weeks.
16:56:31 <jhendler> DanC - does the ontology example look like the use cases?  
16:56:39 <jhendler> Deb/Mike - we're using wine
16:57:23 <jhendler> Dan - if we could relate walkthroughs to reqs it will help continuity (example: wine portal showing how the ontology info is used; wine choosing agent)?
16:58:16 <timfinin> i've got to leave at 1:00 to attend a meeting.
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16:58:26 <Zakim> -TimF
16:59:28 <jhendler> DanC - why is partof dangerous?
16:59:58 <jhendler> DanC/Ian - what do you mean?  Why can't I just say partOf is a relation, it is transitive, etc...
17:00:39 <jhendler> Pat/Deb - there are some issues that go beyond simple partOfs that people use.
17:00:52 <jhendler> Guus - let me put together an example
17:01:46 <jhendler> ACTION: Guus to put together an example from his wine stuff - small part of ontology that contains this kind of region/PartOf example - for walkthru document
17:03:29 <jhendler> MikeS - we won't do "tricky stuff" in primer, but commonly used idioms (like PartOf) might be well worth using
17:04:01 <jhendler> Pat - example, things like subClassOf easy; things like subPropertyOf harder.
17:04:25 <jhendler> Guus - how to do it stuff - we have some complex things that need to be there.
17:04:45 <jhendler> Jim - perhaps we should make how-to and objectives link up.
17:05:44 <jhendler> Dan - is someone compiling the How-to-do-it?
17:05:55 <DanCon> DanCon has joined #webont
17:06:14 <jhendler> Guus - not yet.  Maybe some people try things out for a bit, before we look for editor
17:06:41 <jhendler> Discussion of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jul/0229.html
17:06:48 <jhendler> Guus' how to message
17:06:58 <jhendler> DanC - who has things that might fit in that?  
17:07:16 <jhendler> Deb - we've done some - maybe we could contribute part-of
17:10:06 <jhendler> JimH - talks a bit about what the document can do - example: JimH re: defaults; DebM - way to fake closed worlds with cardinality
17:10:19 <jhendler> ACTION: Deb to take a shot at writing up the closed world example
17:10:37 <jhendler> other people to send their "favorite recipes"
17:10:47 <jhendler> Guus - let's go to the OMG activities/issues.
17:11:24 <jhendler> Guus - people should note the provisional schedule - by beginning of calendar 03 we should have our inputs to this process.
17:11:49 <jhendler> Guus - maybe I should update UML doc to reflect new Owl Lite
17:12:05 <jhendler> ACTION: Guus to update UML document to reflect new Owl Lite 
17:12:25 <jhendler> Evan - OMG is interested in this - UML and modeling are important to OMG world.
17:12:51 <jhendler> users at OMG are trying to do models and interface specs - including defns of lexicons, tazonomies, etc.
17:13:32 <jhendler> some discussion of how these worlds relate and some interest in qualifying this.
17:13:59 <jhendler> DanC - would be worth knowing companies, deployment expectations, etc.  Evan - the "who" for now, at least, is in the message
17:14:37 <jhendler> Evan - at OMG the implementors and proposers tend to be the same folks - so the folks in that list are the likely suspects
17:14:53 <DanCon> hmm... the CG should know about this potential dependency.
17:16:07 <jhendler> ACTION: JimH to inform SW-Cg of (very provisional, likely to slip) dependency WebOnt is taking on re: OMG interaction
17:16:12 <jhendler> ---------
17:16:30 <jhendler> Item 5 - short summary of comments to date on Public list
17:17:24 <jhendler> Frank - generally positive comments - some people raise issues - Boeing folks seem to like OWL Lite for their data integration.  Requestes for more justifications of what is in which, what is in or out, etc.
17:17:43 <jhendler> Need for a RDF/RDFS/DAML+OIL/OWL Lite/OWL comparison
17:18:30 <DanCon> hmm... I wonder if that would fit neatly into the feature synopsis
17:18:54 <jhendler> jim - we are seeing a growing request on our part to have a how RDF/RDFS/OWL Lite/OWL relate to each other (sort of "what they add")
17:19:16 <jhendler> Frank - there is a semantic interaction issue raised on public comments - I've forwarded that to WebOnt
17:19:17 <DanCon> ? why not now? oh well.
17:19:59 <jhendler> Frank - documents also need to make more clear what the RDFS/OWL relation is w/respect to graphs and etc.
17:21:53 <jhendler> Mike - nothing to add.  Peter/Ian - no real major comments to date - so far I am tracking the comments
17:24:37 <jhendler> ACTION: Chairs to find an editor or process to produce the RDF/RDFS/OWL Lite/OWL  comparison/discussion document.  JimH to inform SW-CG this is being considered.
17:24:40 <jhendler> --------
17:24:49 <jhendler> AOB - Deb to scribe next week (thanks again)
17:24:53 <Zakim> -LarryE
17:24:54 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
17:24:55 <Zakim> -M_Smith
17:24:57 <Zakim> -DebM
17:24:57 <jhendler> Guus - adjourned 
17:24:59 <Zakim> -Lassila
17:24:59 <Zakim> -NickG
17:25:00 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:25:01 <Zakim> -PeterPS
17:25:02 <Zakim> -DanC
17:25:03 <Zakim> -JonStanton
17:25:06 <Zakim> -Ian_Horrocks
17:25:07 <Zakim> -Jim_Hendler
17:25:08 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes
17:25:41 <DanCon> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:25:41 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2002/08/15-webont-irc#T17-25-41
17:26:45 <jhendler> (i.e. to set the agendums)
17:26:58 <Zakim> -FrankvH
17:26:58 <Zakim> -GuusSchrieber
17:26:58 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
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18:14:50 <DanConn> DanConn has joined #webont
18:15:18 <DanConn> DanConn has changed the topic to: WebOnt adjourned 'till 22Aug
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