IRC log of ws-arch on 2002-07-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:30:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ws-arch
19:31:00 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ws-arch
19:31:14 [igors]
igors has joined #ws-arch
19:31:39 [Anne]
Anne has joined #ws-arch
19:31:39 [hugo]
Zakim, this is WS
19:31:41 [Zakim]
ok, hugo
19:31:43 [Zakim]
+DavidB
19:31:44 [Zakim]
+M_Champion
19:31:53 [hugo]
Zakim, who is here?
19:31:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see R_Radhika, +1.408.732.aaaa, A_Kotok, Mark_A_Jones, +1.303.791.aabb, ??P10, ??P11, ??P12, ??P0, ??P1, Hugo, Chris_Ferris, S_Kumar, DavidB, M_Champion
19:31:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Anne, igors, Zakim, RRSAgent, Mark_J, Ugo, hima, BobLojek, frankmcca, mchampion, chrisf, DaveH, dbooth, Henrik, hugo
19:32:03 [Zakim]
+Dave_Hollander
19:32:07 [Zakim]
+??P17
19:32:12 [Zakim]
+??P16
19:32:42 [Zakim]
+??P18
19:32:47 [tomCarrol]
tomCarrol has joined #ws-arch
19:32:54 [Zakim]
+??P19
19:32:55 [dbooth]
agenda+ 1. Roll call, scribes for minutes/action items (15.30 + 5)
19:33:07 [dbooth]
agenda+ 2. Agenda review, and AOB (15.35 + 5)
19:33:18 [dbooth]
agenda+ 3. Review & approval of 11 July, 2002 minutes [2] (15.40 + 5)
19:33:28 [dbooth]
agenda+ 4. Review action items [3] (15.45 + 5)
19:33:37 [dbooth]
agenda+ 5. WG document publishing schedule (15.50 + 10)
19:33:40 [igors]
Chris, I'll be joing the call in 10-15 minutes. Please count me in :)
19:33:47 [Zakim]
+??P20
19:33:50 [dbooth]
agenda+ 6. Review of Mike's proposal for D-AG005 (16.00 + 15)
19:34:00 [dbooth]
agenda+ 7. Review of Zulah's proposals for D-AG006 (16.15 + 15)
19:34:12 [dbooth]
agenda+ 8. Review of Hugo's proposals for D-AG003 (16.30 + 15)
19:34:20 [dbooth]
agenda+ 9. Review XMLP LC feedback comments (16.45 + 15)
19:35:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.875.aacc
19:35:24 [Zakim]
+DOrchard
19:35:32 [Zakim]
+PaulD
19:35:46 [Zakim]
+??P25
19:36:27 [Zakim]
+??P26
19:36:36 [hugo]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-arch/2002Jul/0073.html
19:36:37 [Zakim]
+K_Sankar
19:37:12 [Zakim]
+??P28
19:39:04 [Kreger]
Kreger has joined #ws-arch
19:40:07 [hugo]
Zakim, what agenda?
19:40:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, hugo.
19:40:13 [hugo]
Zakim, what is the agenda?
19:40:14 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
19:40:15 [Zakim]
1. 1. Roll call, scribes for minutes/action items (15.30 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:40:17 [Zakim]
2. 2. Agenda review, and AOB (15.35 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:40:18 [Zakim]
3. 3. Review & approval of 11 July, 2002 minutes [2] (15.40 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:40:20 [Zakim]
4. 4. Review action items [3] (15.45 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:40:22 [Zakim]
5. 5. WG document publishing schedule (15.50 + 10) [from dbooth]
19:40:24 [Zakim]
6. 6. Review of Mike's proposal for D-AG005 (16.00 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:40:25 [Zakim]
7. 7. Review of Zulah's proposals for D-AG006 (16.15 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:40:27 [Zakim]
8. 8. Review of Hugo's proposals for D-AG003 (16.30 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:40:28 [Zakim]
9. 9. Review XMLP LC feedback comments (16.45 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:40:51 [hugo]
Zakim, close agendum 1
19:40:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
19:40:53 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
19:40:54 [Zakim]
2. 2. Agenda review, and AOB (15.35 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:40:55 [Zakim]
3. 3. Review & approval of 11 July, 2002 minutes [2] (15.40 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:40:58 [Zakim]
4. 4. Review action items [3] (15.45 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:41:00 [Zakim]
5. 5. WG document publishing schedule (15.50 + 10) [from dbooth]
19:41:02 [Zakim]
6. 6. Review of Mike's proposal for D-AG005 (16.00 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:41:03 [Zakim]
7. 7. Review of Zulah's proposals for D-AG006 (16.15 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:41:04 [Zakim]
8. 8. Review of Hugo's proposals for D-AG003 (16.30 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:41:05 [Zakim]
9. 9. Review XMLP LC feedback comments (16.45 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:41:09 [hugo]
----
19:41:16 [hugo]
2. Agenda review, and AOB
19:41:59 [hugo]
Scribe: Krishna Sankar
19:42:02 [hugo]
Zakim, close agendum 2
19:42:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
19:42:04 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
19:42:05 [Zakim]
3. 3. Review & approval of 11 July, 2002 minutes [2] (15.40 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:42:07 [Zakim]
4. 4. Review action items [3] (15.45 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:42:09 [Zakim]
5. 5. WG document publishing schedule (15.50 + 10) [from dbooth]
19:42:10 [Zakim]
6. 6. Review of Mike's proposal for D-AG005 (16.00 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:42:12 [Zakim]
7. 7. Review of Zulah's proposals for D-AG006 (16.15 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:42:13 [Zakim]
8. 8. Review of Hugo's proposals for D-AG003 (16.30 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:42:13 [Zakim]
9. 9. Review XMLP LC feedback comments (16.45 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:42:18 [hugo]
----
19:42:22 [hugo]
3. Review & approval of 11 July, 2002 minutes
19:42:48 [hugo]
Minutes approved
19:42:55 [hugo]
Zakim, close agendum 3
19:42:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
19:42:56 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
19:42:57 [Zakim]
4. 4. Review action items [3] (15.45 + 5) [from dbooth]
19:42:59 [Zakim]
5. 5. WG document publishing schedule (15.50 + 10) [from dbooth]
19:43:01 [Zakim]
6. 6. Review of Mike's proposal for D-AG005 (16.00 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:43:03 [Zakim]
7. 7. Review of Zulah's proposals for D-AG006 (16.15 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:43:03 [Zakim]
8. 8. Review of Hugo's proposals for D-AG003 (16.30 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:43:04 [Zakim]
9. 9. Review XMLP LC feedback comments (16.45 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:43:07 [hugo]
----
19:43:37 [hugo]
4. Review action items
19:43:49 [hpsteiert]
hpsteiert has joined #ws-arch
19:44:38 [hugo]
Zakim, close agendum 4
19:44:39 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
19:44:39 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
19:44:40 [Zakim]
5. 5. WG document publishing schedule (15.50 + 10) [from dbooth]
19:44:42 [Zakim]
6. 6. Review of Mike's proposal for D-AG005 (16.00 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:44:43 [Zakim]
7. 7. Review of Zulah's proposals for D-AG006 (16.15 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:44:44 [Zakim]
8. 8. Review of Hugo's proposals for D-AG003 (16.30 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:44:45 [Zakim]
9. 9. Review XMLP LC feedback comments (16.45 + 15) [from dbooth]
19:44:53 [hugo]
----
19:44:57 [hugo]
5. WG document publishing schedule
19:46:29 [dbooth]
Have an editor's draft of architecture doc: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/arch/2/06/wd-wsa-arch-20020605.html
19:50:11 [chrisf]
q+ daveo
19:50:32 [chrisf]
hh: flesh out arch doc, get something in shape
19:50:43 [chrisf]
q+ daveh
19:50:46 [frankmcca]
+q
19:50:48 [chrisf]
ack daveo
19:51:08 [chrisf]
daveo: against publishing arch doc, even if editors could pull something together
19:51:28 [chrisf]
dbooth: also agrees it is important to get arch doc published
19:51:41 [chrisf]
daveo: don't think we've got enough there for review
19:51:57 [dbooth]
q+
19:52:07 [chrisf]
daveo: just editor's thoughts, no agreement as to whether these are the thoughts of the WG
19:52:20 [chrisf]
daveo: hoped that HST would produce material
19:53:25 [chrisf]
ack daveh
19:53:52 [chrisf]
daveh: huge risk, but favors doing something
19:54:22 [chrisf]
ack dbooth
19:55:19 [chrisf]
daveo: doesn't really have sense of what the will of the WG is at this stage
19:55:29 [frankmcca]
zakim, q+
19:55:30 [Zakim]
I see Hugo, Frankmcca on the speaker queue
19:55:40 [chrisf]
dbooth: wouldn't expect first WD to represent consensus agreement, just stake in ground
19:56:07 [chrisf]
q+ zulah
19:56:10 [chrisf]
ack hugo
19:56:29 [Grainger]
q+
19:56:45 [DaveO]
DaveO has joined #ws-arch
19:56:54 [chrisf]
hugo: important to publish a starting point and include status that clearly reflects that this is just a starting point
19:57:02 [mchampion]
q+
19:57:06 [chrisf]
hugo: what is important is to have somewhere to start from
19:57:39 [DaveO]
q+
19:57:39 [chrisf]
hugo: serve as tool to focus discussion
19:57:47 [chrisf]
ack frank
19:58:53 [yinleng]
yinleng has joined #ws-arch
19:58:56 [chrisf]
frank: risk misleading large audience as to what the WG will do, first draft is significant, should hint at final architecture
19:59:01 [Zakim]
+Igor_Sedukhin
19:59:11 [dbooth]
q+
19:59:17 [chrisf]
frank: deep division in requirements, premature to publish anything
19:59:54 [Kreger]
q+
19:59:57 [chrisf]
ack zulah
20:00:21 [Zakim]
-??P1
20:00:37 [chrisf]
zulah: don't think we've had enough discussion, think first WD should be substantive, not enough in there
20:01:03 [chrisf]
ack grainger
20:01:08 [DaveH]
+q
20:01:13 [chrisf]
daniel: could be shooting selves in foot
20:01:16 [DaveH]
q+
20:01:19 [chrisf]
ack mcha
20:02:37 [chrisf]
mike: broadcast intent to promote web idioms for SOAP, we can say when to use URIs for instance... need to identify real open issues, focus these down on problems that can be solved and identify issues in dispute
20:02:53 [chrisf]
mike: as editor, willing to signup for time to put something together
20:03:46 [chrisf]
daveo: really bad to publish something that editors might come up with, without giving WG any say in what gets published
20:05:16 [chrisf]
ack dbooth
20:05:20 [chrisf]
ack daveo
20:05:55 [chrisf]
dbooth: will help focus discussion
20:06:26 [DaveO]
Chris, Can I rebut the "help focus" point?
20:06:47 [chrisf]
ack kreger
20:06:55 [dbooth]
Here are my comments for the scribe:
20:06:56 [dbooth]
[[
20:07:00 [dbooth]
0. Better to include controversial topics than omit
20:07:00 [dbooth]
all sides if possible
20:07:00 [dbooth]
label them as controversial
20:07:00 [dbooth]
good for discussion
20:07:00 [dbooth]
1. "Haven't discussed arch": Have discussed arch for 5 months, what we haven't discussed is specific arch document.
20:07:02 [dbooth]
2. One of the difficulties I think this group has faced is focus.
20:07:03 [dbooth]
3. Biggest concern expressed: Moving forward quickly.
20:07:07 [dbooth]
Membership is counting on us
20:07:09 [dbooth]
4. Would look really bad if we are 4 months late
20:07:11 [dbooth]
]]
20:07:52 [DaveO]
straw poll?
20:08:01 [mchampion]
if what the editors come up with IS ludicrous, the WG doesn't have to approve publication!
20:08:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.902.aadd
20:10:06 [HFN_lap]
HFN_lap has joined #ws-arch
20:10:32 [DaveO]
lol
20:12:25 [DaveH]
I would like to change my vote - to concur
20:12:38 [Zakim]
+??P30
20:14:57 [dbooth]
q+
20:15:17 [DaveO]
q+
20:15:32 [DaveO]
q-
20:15:43 [frankmcca]
only europeans go on holiday in August!
20:15:49 [chrisf]
LOL!
20:16:15 [Grainger]
fair enough Hugo
20:17:04 [Grainger]
real architects don't take vacation! (Daniel)
20:17:13 [dbooth]
LOL
20:17:16 [Zakim]
- +1.650.875.aacc
20:22:07 [chrisf]
D-AR003.1 supports multiple transport and application protocols.
20:23:50 [chrisf]
separates the transport of data or means of access to Web
20:23:50 [chrisf]
Services from the Web Services themselves.
20:24:48 [chrisf]
D-AR003.1 accepted
20:25:08 [DaveO]
DaveO has joined #ws-arch
20:26:17 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: D-AR003.1 accepted: separates the transport of data or means of access to Web Services from the Web Services themselves.
20:26:20 [chrisf]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Jul/0216.html
20:29:42 [hugo]
did I miss the discussion of D-AR003.3?
20:30:13 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: D-AR003.2 accepted as is
20:30:26 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: D-AR003.5 remove
20:31:07 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: D-AR003.6 remove, now covered elsewhere
20:31:44 [hugo]
ACTION: DaveH to rework D-AR003.3
20:32:22 [hugo]
Zakim, close agendum 5 6
20:32:23 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close agendum 5 6', hugo. Try /msg Zakim help
20:32:27 [hugo]
Zakim, close agendum 5
20:32:28 [Zakim]
agendum 5 closed
20:32:29 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
20:32:30 [Zakim]
6. 6. Review of Mike's proposal for D-AG005 (16.00 + 15) [from dbooth]
20:32:31 [Zakim]
7. 7. Review of Zulah's proposals for D-AG006 (16.15 + 15) [from dbooth]
20:32:32 [Zakim]
8. 8. Review of Hugo's proposals for D-AG003 (16.30 + 15) [from dbooth]
20:32:33 [Zakim]
9. 9. Review XMLP LC feedback comments (16.45 + 15) [from dbooth]
20:32:35 [hugo]
Zakim, close agendum 6
20:32:36 [Zakim]
agendum 6 closed
20:32:37 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
20:32:38 [Zakim]
7. 7. Review of Zulah's proposals for D-AG006 (16.15 + 15) [from dbooth]
20:32:39 [Zakim]
8. 8. Review of Hugo's proposals for D-AG003 (16.30 + 15) [from dbooth]
20:32:40 [Zakim]
9. 9. Review XMLP LC feedback comments (16.45 + 15) [from dbooth]
20:33:03 [chrisf]
provides for modular web
20:33:03 [chrisf]
services architecture components, with each at a level of granularity
20:33:03 [chrisf]
appropriate to meet the other goals.
20:33:09 [hugo]
oops, 6 wasn't closed yet
20:33:50 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: D-AC002 accepted as Mike has proposed
20:34:50 [chrisf]
D-AC002.1 as proposed by Mike:
20:34:51 [chrisf]
provides conceptual integrity, i.e. a unified theme rather than a set of
20:34:51 [chrisf]
disjoint ideas, which generally characterizes designs that are easy to
20:34:51 [chrisf]
understand and implement.
20:37:47 [Zakim]
-S_Kumar
20:38:24 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: D-AC002.1 accepted Mike's proposal
20:38:25 [chrisf]
provides conceptual integrity, i.e. a unified theme rather than a set of
20:38:26 [chrisf]
disjoint ideas, which generally characterizes designs that are easy to
20:38:26 [chrisf]
understand and implement.
20:39:46 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: D-AC002.1.2 accepted Mike's proposed text
20:39:47 [chrisf]
Eases development and maintenance of
20:39:47 [chrisf]
implementations of the architecture by defining architectural components
20:39:47 [chrisf]
that are logical, consistent, and thus easy to understand.
20:40:30 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: remove D-AC002.1.3
20:43:26 [Zakim]
-A_Kotok
20:45:01 [chrisf]
ACTION: Daniel to propose revised D-AC002.2 and sub-csfs/req'ts for next week's call
20:45:18 [dbooth]
If these can be consolidated into standard, generic software engineering goals, they why do we need to include them at all? Personally, I think they are so far from being measurable that it doesn't much matter if we include them or not.
20:45:27 [dbooth]
s/they/then/
20:45:54 [chrisf]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Jul/0205.html
20:47:44 [Zakim]
-??P26
20:47:50 [hugo]
end of last call: tomorrow
20:48:06 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: remove D-AC008.2
20:49:31 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: remove D-AC008.5
20:50:09 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: approved D-AC008.6
20:51:01 [Zakim]
-??P28
20:51:16 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: D-AR012.4 removed
20:53:16 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: D-AC012.7
20:53:29 [DaveO]
does one "say" yay!!! or does one "yell" yay!!! ? :-)
20:55:05 [chrisf]
RESOLVED: remove 15.1-7 as Zulah has proposed
20:55:06 [hugo]
it depends on the situation :-)
20:55:58 [hugo]
Zakim, close agendum 7
20:55:59 [Zakim]
agendum 7 closed
20:56:00 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
20:56:01 [Zakim]
8. 8. Review of Hugo's proposals for D-AG003 (16.30 + 15) [from dbooth]
20:56:02 [Zakim]
9. 9. Review XMLP LC feedback comments (16.45 + 15) [from dbooth]
20:57:17 [dbooth]
q+
21:00:01 [dbooth]
q+ Zulah
21:00:08 [dbooth]
ack DaveH
21:00:32 [chrisf]
ack dbooth
21:01:09 [Zakim]
-??P19
21:01:15 [hima]
hima has left #ws-arch
21:02:39 [DaveO]
q+
21:03:22 [chrisf]
ack zulah
21:03:25 [chrisf]
ack hugo
21:04:11 [chrisf]
ack daveo
21:05:33 [Zakim]
-R_Radhika
21:06:32 [dbooth]
+1
21:07:50 [Zakim]
-Igor_Sedukhin
21:07:57 [Zakim]
-??P18
21:08:02 [Grainger]
+1
21:08:23 [Zakim]
-Hugo
21:08:24 [Zakim]
-Mark_A_Jones
21:08:25 [Zakim]
-??P30
21:08:26 [Zakim]
-??P12
21:08:27 [Zakim]
-K_Sankar
21:08:28 [Zakim]
- +1.303.791.aabb
21:08:29 [Zakim]
-??P16
21:08:29 [hugo]
Zakim, please excuse us
21:08:30 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ws-arch
21:08:30 [Grainger]
Grainger has left #ws-arch
21:08:32 [Zakim]
-??P20
21:08:35 [Zakim]
- +1.781.902.aadd
21:08:35 [hpsteiert]
quit
21:08:37 [Zakim]
-M_Champion
21:08:37 [hpsteiert]
quit
21:08:37 [Zakim]
-??P0
21:08:47 [hugo]
RRSAgent, please excuse us
21:08:47 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items:
21:08:47 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DaveH to rework D-AR003.3 [1]
21:08:47 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/07/18-ws-arch-irc#T20-31-44
21:08:47 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Daniel to propose revised D-AC002.2 and sub-csfs/req'ts for next week's call [2]
21:08:47 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/07/18-ws-arch-irc#T20-45-01