15:53:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:54:18 <schreiber> schreiber has joined #webont
15:58:46 <nmg> nmg has joined #webont
16:00:03 <libby> libby has joined #webont
16:00:25 <jjc> jjc has joined #webont
16:01:08 <jjc> shall I scribe?
16:01:17 <jhendler> sure.  
16:01:22 <jjc> OK
16:01:24 <jhendler> zakim, this is Web_Ont
16:01:25 <Zakim> sorry, jhendler, I do not see a conference named 'Web_Ont'
16:01:35 <jhendler> zakim, this is WebOnt
16:01:36 <Zakim> ok, jhendler
16:01:40 <Zakim> + +1.705.756.aaaa
16:01:43 <Zakim> +??P35
16:01:44 <Zakim> +Leo
16:01:46 <jhendler> zakim, who is here
16:01:47 <Zakim> jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'
16:01:50 <jhendler> zakim, who is here?
16:01:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, ??P10, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, +1.705.756.aaaa, ??P35, Leo
16:01:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see jjcscribe, libby, nmg, schreiber, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler, herman, logger_1
16:01:54 <Zakim> +??P46
16:02:00 <las> las has joined #webont
16:02:07 <las> zakim, who is here?
16:02:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, ??P10, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, +1.705.756.aaaa, ??P35, Leo, ??P46
16:02:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see las, jjcscribe, libby, nmg, schreiber, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler, herman, logger_1
16:02:46 <jhendler> zakim aaaa is pfps
16:02:52 <jhendler> zakim, aaaa is pfps
16:02:53 <Zakim> +Pfps; got it
16:03:11 <Enrico> Enrico has joined #webont
16:03:20 <jhendler> zakim, p46 is guus
16:03:21 <Zakim> sorry, jhendler, I do not recognize a party named 'p46'
16:03:30 <jhendler> zakim, ?p46 is Guus
16:03:32 <Zakim> sorry, jhendler, I do not recognize a party named '?p46'
16:03:42 <jhendler> zakim, ??P46 is Guus
16:03:43 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
16:03:57 <jhendler> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, ??P10, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, Pfps, ??P35, Leo, Guus
16:04:02 <Zakim> +??P48
16:04:14 <libby> libby just joined
16:04:24 <jhendler> zakim, ??P48 is libby
16:04:25 <Zakim> +Libby; got it
16:04:29 <libby> thanks!
16:04:34 <jhendler> zakim, ??P10 is jeremy
16:04:36 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
16:04:37 <jjcscribe> +Jeremy
16:04:43 <Zakim> + +1.845.227.aabb
16:04:49 <jjcscribe> +Rudiger
16:04:51 <jjcscribe> +Welty
16:04:56 <jjcscribe> +Motta
16:05:03 <jjcscribe> +terHorst
16:05:03 <jhendler> zakim, aabb is welty.
16:05:05 <Zakim> +Welty.; got it
16:05:17 <jhendler> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, Jeremy, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, Pfps, ??P35, Leo, Guus, Libby, Welty.
16:05:23 <jjcscribe> +Libby
16:05:28 <libby> heh
16:05:56 <Massimo> Massimo has joined #webont
16:06:02 <jjcscribe> +Gibbons
16:06:05 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
16:06:18 <Zakim> +Pat_Hayes
16:06:35 <jjcscribe> also regrets dean, finin, rapheal
16:06:54 <Massimo> Zakim, what is the passcode?
16:06:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 9326, Massimo
16:06:58 <jjcscribe> Agenda 1.2 minutes of previous telecon
16:07:18 <jjcscribe> Also present Welty at [previous telecon
16:07:29 <jjcscribe> Mintues accepted.
16:07:35 <jjcscribe> Face2Face minutes
16:07:55 <Zakim> +Massimo
16:07:57 <jjcscribe> Item 1.3
16:08:05 <jjcscribe> We will finalize them next week.
16:08:22 <jjcscribe> I have now muted
16:08:29 <Zakim> +LynnT
16:08:44 <jjcscribe> 1.4 Agenda 
16:08:46 <jjcscribe> unchanged
16:08:56 <jjcscribe> 1.5 next meeting
16:09:01 <jjcscribe> next week
16:09:28 <jjcscribe> no scribe volunteer
16:09:40 <jjcscribe> 2 Action item review
16:10:05 <jjcscribe> Connolly CVS access done
16:10:35 <jjcscribe> XML Presentation stuff still outstanding
16:10:53 <jjcscribe> 2.2 F2f actions
16:11:18 <jjcscribe> These actions are continued ...
16:11:41 <jjcscribe> except Mike smith edit walkthru done
16:12:11 <jjcscribe> Action rapheal to raise issue is done
16:12:48 <jjcscribe> reminder about tools action
16:12:57 <jjcscribe> 3 Issues
16:13:11 <jjcscribe> 3.1 Issues 4.2, 5.2, 5.15, 5.16
16:13:26 <jjcscribe> Jim takes chair for this item
16:13:40 <DanCon> DanCon has joined #webont
16:13:58 <jjcscribe> Guus: most of discussion has been on 5.2 should we have compliance levels?
16:14:07 <jjcscribe> Guus: also on local ranges 5.15
16:14:27 <jjcscribe> Guus %.2 and 5.16 are duplicates
16:15:02 <connolly> connolly has joined #webont
16:15:23 <Zakim> +DanC
16:15:31 <jjcscribe> Guus: are we ready to make a decision on this issue?
16:15:46 <jhendler> zakim, mute DanC
16:15:47 <Zakim> DanC should now be muted
16:15:51 <connolly> crud... battery in my phone is dead...
16:16:41 <connolly> can I be heard?
16:16:48 <connolly> I can hear now... odd
16:16:49 <jjcscribe> no
16:16:51 <Massimo> Zakim, unmute DanC
16:16:52 <Zakim> DanC should no longer be muted
16:16:59 <Massimo> try now dan ;)
16:17:38 <jjcscribe> Straw poll: having a named subset?
16:17:57 <jhendler> zakim, who is on the phone
16:17:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', jhendler.  Try /msg Zakim help
16:17:59 <connolly> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:18:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, Jeremy, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, Pfps, ??P35, Leo, Guus, Libby, Welty., Pat_Hayes, Massimo, LynnT,
16:18:02 <Zakim> ... DanC
16:18:04 <jjcscribe> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:18:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, Jeremy, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, Pfps, ??P35, Leo, Guus, Libby, Welty., Pat_Hayes, Massimo, LynnT,
16:18:07 <Zakim> ... DanC
16:18:43 <Zakim> +??P19
16:21:14 <jjcscribe> Poll: a++-aaaa-++aaa+-a+++
16:21:54 <jjcscribe> For 8, against 3
16:22:04 <jjcscribe> Connolly can't live with
16:23:03 <jjcscribe> Pat: why would this be a failure?
16:23:21 <jjcscribe> Connolly: two levels reflect a lack opf decision.
16:23:49 <ChrisW> do any other w3c standards have compliance levels?
16:24:11 <connolly> yes, and it hurts
16:24:30 <jjcscribe> Qu Mike Smith: how would a tool that partially supported the language advertise themselves?
16:26:38 <jjcscribe> Hendler: two use cases are theausruus related
16:26:54 <jjcscribe> For utput of tehasusrus only a small subset is needed.
16:28:02 <jjcscribe> Hendler lots of outside support
16:28:37 <jjcscribe> Tasks: expression of hierarchy versus reasoning about it.
16:30:17 <jjcscribe> Discussion of cost
16:31:23 <jjcscribe> Are these political problems?
16:32:51 <jjcscribe> Time check?
16:33:30 <ChrisW> jjc are you muted?
16:33:35 <jjcscribe> Hendler: suggestion postpone issue but publish document
16:33:56 <jjcscribe> Connolly can live witrh that, pfps finds it difficult
16:34:16 <jjcscribe> I think I am muted now
16:34:53 <jjcscribe> The coument would need to idneitfy that this is still open issue
16:37:16 <jjcscribe> Hendler: assuming there are two sets of users with different needs what do we do?
16:37:26 <ChrisW> did someone say PARTY???
16:37:37 <ChrisW> I'm in favor of that
16:37:40 <jjcscribe> Connolly: simpler one is version 1, then start work on more complicated one
16:39:01 <jjcscribe> Stein: let's release documents and postpone issue
16:40:14 <jjcscribe> Schriber: let's restarte issue 5.2 as a revisiting issue ...
16:41:50 <jjcscribe> Chair: call question: we will release current documents, with OWL Lite, and have in issue list that we will revisit
16:41:56 <jjcscribe> No opposition
16:42:02 <connolly> so RESOLVED.
16:43:15 <jjcscribe> 5.15
16:43:33 <jjcscribe> Zero/one cardinalities - we are unsure if they can be handled easily
16:44:00 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2002/07/11-webont-irc#T16-43-33
16:44:42 <ChrisW> are we talking about 5.15 or 5.16?
16:44:58 <jjcscribe> Should we do 5.15 in the same way as 5.2, i.e. make provisional decision and revisit
16:45:49 <jjcscribe> Issue 4.2
16:46:07 <jjcscribe> Hendler no one opposes mincardinality maxcaridniliaty and cardinality
16:46:49 <jjcscribe> Proposal: include all three cardinality constructs from DAML
16:48:29 <jjcscribe> Discussion
16:51:13 <jjcscribe> Discussion also about what happened at ftf
16:51:20 <jjcscribe> Heavy breather
16:51:51 <jjcscribe> Dan is unhappy woith face 2 face decsion on this - he was scribing
16:53:01 <jjcscribe> Hendler: propose that we close 4.2
16:54:20 <jjcscribe> Guus: propsoe that we close 4.2
16:54:28 <jjcscribe> Dan objection
16:54:41 <jjcscribe> Dan I think we need 0 and 1 cardinalities
16:55:17 <ChrisW> NO he's asking what you would call it if you wanted it
16:55:52 <jjcscribe> Dan: I don't want to be able to say cardinality=6
16:56:03 <jjcscribe> Hendler: that issue has not been rasied
16:58:05 <jjcscribe> Lyn Stein?: if we decide that we only want 0 and 1 as cardinailities then this issue is intertwined
16:58:58 <jjcscribe> Hendler: propose that we close issue 4.2 accepting DAML solution
16:59:21 <jjcscribe> ... with respect to the name cardinaility minCardinality maxCardinality
16:59:39 <jjcscribe> no opposed
16:59:50 <ChrisW> jjc are you muted
16:59:57 <jjcscribe> abstrentions connolly stein
17:00:04 <jjcscribe> so RESOLVED
17:02:34 <connolly> "    * mapInv (premise, conclusion). approved 30May" -- http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/
17:02:35 <jjcscribe> ACTION jjc make propsoal for test case structure
17:02:41 <jjcscribe> ACTION jimh produce test for 4.2
17:03:23 <Zakim> -Marwan_Sabbouh
17:03:37 <jjcscribe> 5.15 local range restrictions will not be closed
17:03:53 <jjcscribe> 5.16 for OWL Lite only 0 or 1 cardinality
17:04:11 <jjcscribe> this is not closed according to the f2f record
17:04:17 <Zakim> +Marwan_Sabbouh
17:04:32 <connolly> PROPOSED: to close 5.16 thus "- OWL Lite includes min/max cardinality restrictions of 0 and 1"
17:04:42 <jjcscribe> no opposed
17:04:50 <jjcscribe> abstain heflin
17:04:57 <jjcscribe> so RESOLVED
17:05:40 <jjcscribe> Agenda 3.2: issue 3.4, 4.1
17:06:40 <jjcscribe> DAN: I like manytoone and oneToMany
17:06:57 <jjcscribe> Guus and Dan discuss databases
17:07:36 <jjcscribe> Guus: "keyAttribute" is db speak for unambiguous
17:08:48 <jjcscribe> Examples:
17:09:00 <jjcscribe> unambiguousProperty is social security number
17:09:01 <connolly> ssn unambiguous for, say, Person
17:09:34 <jjcscribe> if two people have same ssn then they are the same person
17:09:44 <jjcscribe> height is a uniqueProepty
17:09:49 <jjcscribe> each person has one height
17:10:06 <Zakim> -Marwan_Sabbouh
17:10:20 <jjcscribe> birthday is a unqieproeprty
17:12:08 <jjcscribe> pfps even legally it is possible to have multiple ssn
17:13:24 <jjcscribe> biological mother is unambiguous
17:13:43 <jhendler> but not 1-1 
17:14:01 <jhendler> (i.e. I have multiple children, my children have a single mother)
17:14:07 <jjcscribe> guus: is their an issue owner?
17:14:19 <jjcscribe> Lynn Stein?
17:14:47 <connolly> bioMother is not unambiguous; unambiguous is: p(x,z) ^ p(y,z) => x=y
17:15:10 <ChrisW> does each issue have only one owner?
17:16:12 <libby> unambiguous property doen;t have to universally unambiguous to be useful
17:16:13 <las> I withdraw ownership unless I can convince myself that I understand the issue adequately.
17:16:31 <libby> e.g. personalmbox at a particular time
17:17:17 <jhendler> so if  Lynn is motherof Joan and ?X is motherof Joan then ?x = Joan
17:17:40 <ChrisW> I will volunteer to own it
17:17:49 <libby> there have been several posts by different people saing why useful
17:18:28 <jjcscribe> ACTION chriwsw to propose resolution of 3.4 and 4.1
17:18:55 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2002/07/11-webont-irc#T17-18-28
17:19:00 <jjcscribe> Agenda 3.3
17:20:23 <jjcscribe> pfps: 
17:20:45 <jjcscribe> Dan's MT is an attempt to make d+o fit better with rdf mt
17:21:20 <jjcscribe> pfps did not like the daml constructirs having comprehension principle
17:21:54 <jjcscribe> pfps's mt is more along fol lines (first order logic)
17:22:10 <jjcscribe> pfps in this approach owl restrictions are syntactic
17:22:55 <jjcscribe> in dan's approach a+B != b+a
17:23:17 <jjcscribe> also issue to do with datatype property and object property
17:25:36 <jjcscribe> ACTION pfps find example illustratin computational difficulties in having both datatypes and objects inintegrated domain
17:26:51 <libby> danc - that's an excellent example, and came up on the Jena rist recently too
17:27:16 <jjcscribe> ACTION dan point to use case for havign datatypes and obejct property in integrated domain
17:28:20 <jjcscribe> discussion curtailed ...
17:28:37 <connolly> for the curious: http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/sameStateP.rdf and http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/sameStateC.rdf
17:28:47 <connolly> I'll elaborate in email
17:29:26 <jjcscribe> 4.2 still waiting ...
17:29:53 <jjcscribe> Agenda 4.3
17:30:05 <jjcscribe> The document title will be Abstract Syntax
17:30:18 <Zakim> -Leo
17:30:30 <Zakim> -Stein
17:30:33 <jjcscribe> Action pat review abstract syntax
17:30:43 <jjcscribe> abstrcat connolly review abstract syntax
17:30:58 <jjcscribe> action terhorst review abstrcat syntax
17:31:00 <connolly> ACTION: connolly review abstract syntax
17:31:44 <jjcscribe> * it doesn't help that I mistype eveyrthing
17:32:05 <ChrisW> bye
17:32:06 <Zakim> -M_Smith
17:32:08 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes
17:32:10 <jjcscribe> meeting adjourned
17:32:11 <Zakim> -??P19
17:32:13 <Zakim> -??P43
17:32:13 <Zakim> -Welty.
17:32:14 <Zakim> -??P28
17:32:15 <Zakim> -Libby
17:32:15 <Zakim> -Pfps
17:32:16 <Zakim> -John_Stanton
17:32:19 <Zakim> -??P39
17:32:24 <ChrisW> ChrisW has left #webont
17:32:38 <jhendler> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:32:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeremy, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P35, Guus, Massimo, LynnT, DanC
17:32:41 <Zakim> -Jeremy
17:32:45 <libby> libby has left #webont
17:32:59 <Zakim> -JeffH
17:33:47 <Zakim> -LynnT
17:33:58 <Zakim> -??P35
17:36:34 <Zakim> -Jim_Hendler
17:36:36 <Zakim> -Guus
17:36:40 <Zakim> -DanC
17:36:46 <Zakim> -Massimo
17:36:47 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
19:27:36 <las> las has left #webont
19:51:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webont