IRC log of webont on 2002-07-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:53:48 [RRSAgent]
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15:54:18 [schreiber]
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15:58:46 [nmg]
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16:00:03 [libby]
libby has joined #webont
16:00:25 [jjc]
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16:01:08 [jjc]
shall I scribe?
16:01:17 [jhendler]
sure.
16:01:22 [jjc]
OK
16:01:24 [jhendler]
zakim, this is Web_Ont
16:01:25 [Zakim]
sorry, jhendler, I do not see a conference named 'Web_Ont'
16:01:35 [jhendler]
zakim, this is WebOnt
16:01:36 [Zakim]
ok, jhendler
16:01:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.705.756.aaaa
16:01:43 [Zakim]
+??P35
16:01:44 [Zakim]
+Leo
16:01:46 [jhendler]
zakim, who is here
16:01:47 [Zakim]
jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'
16:01:50 [jhendler]
zakim, who is here?
16:01:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, ??P10, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, +1.705.756.aaaa, ??P35, Leo
16:01:53 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jjcscribe, libby, nmg, schreiber, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler, herman, logger_1
16:01:54 [Zakim]
+??P46
16:02:00 [las]
las has joined #webont
16:02:07 [las]
zakim, who is here?
16:02:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, ??P10, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, +1.705.756.aaaa, ??P35, Leo, ??P46
16:02:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see las, jjcscribe, libby, nmg, schreiber, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler, herman, logger_1
16:02:46 [jhendler]
zakim aaaa is pfps
16:02:52 [jhendler]
zakim, aaaa is pfps
16:02:53 [Zakim]
+Pfps; got it
16:03:11 [Enrico]
Enrico has joined #webont
16:03:20 [jhendler]
zakim, p46 is guus
16:03:21 [Zakim]
sorry, jhendler, I do not recognize a party named 'p46'
16:03:30 [jhendler]
zakim, ?p46 is Guus
16:03:32 [Zakim]
sorry, jhendler, I do not recognize a party named '?p46'
16:03:42 [jhendler]
zakim, ??P46 is Guus
16:03:43 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
16:03:57 [jhendler]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, ??P10, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, Pfps, ??P35, Leo, Guus
16:04:02 [Zakim]
+??P48
16:04:14 [libby]
libby just joined
16:04:24 [jhendler]
zakim, ??P48 is libby
16:04:25 [Zakim]
+Libby; got it
16:04:29 [libby]
thanks!
16:04:34 [jhendler]
zakim, ??P10 is jeremy
16:04:36 [Zakim]
+Jeremy; got it
16:04:37 [jjcscribe]
+Jeremy
16:04:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.845.227.aabb
16:04:49 [jjcscribe]
+Rudiger
16:04:51 [jjcscribe]
+Welty
16:04:56 [jjcscribe]
+Motta
16:05:03 [jjcscribe]
+terHorst
16:05:03 [jhendler]
zakim, aabb is welty.
16:05:05 [Zakim]
+Welty.; got it
16:05:17 [jhendler]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, Jeremy, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, Pfps, ??P35, Leo, Guus, Libby, Welty.
16:05:23 [jjcscribe]
+Libby
16:05:28 [libby]
heh
16:05:56 [Massimo]
Massimo has joined #webont
16:06:02 [jjcscribe]
+Gibbons
16:06:05 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #webont
16:06:18 [Zakim]
+Pat_Hayes
16:06:35 [jjcscribe]
also regrets dean, finin, rapheal
16:06:54 [Massimo]
Zakim, what is the passcode?
16:06:55 [Zakim]
the conference code is 9326, Massimo
16:06:58 [jjcscribe]
Agenda 1.2 minutes of previous telecon
16:07:18 [jjcscribe]
Also present Welty at [previous telecon
16:07:29 [jjcscribe]
Mintues accepted.
16:07:35 [jjcscribe]
Face2Face minutes
16:07:55 [Zakim]
+Massimo
16:07:57 [jjcscribe]
Item 1.3
16:08:05 [jjcscribe]
We will finalize them next week.
16:08:22 [jjcscribe]
I have now muted
16:08:29 [Zakim]
+LynnT
16:08:44 [jjcscribe]
1.4 Agenda
16:08:46 [jjcscribe]
unchanged
16:08:56 [jjcscribe]
1.5 next meeting
16:09:01 [jjcscribe]
next week
16:09:28 [jjcscribe]
no scribe volunteer
16:09:40 [jjcscribe]
2 Action item review
16:10:05 [jjcscribe]
Connolly CVS access done
16:10:35 [jjcscribe]
XML Presentation stuff still outstanding
16:10:53 [jjcscribe]
2.2 F2f actions
16:11:18 [jjcscribe]
These actions are continued ...
16:11:41 [jjcscribe]
except Mike smith edit walkthru done
16:12:11 [jjcscribe]
Action rapheal to raise issue is done
16:12:48 [jjcscribe]
reminder about tools action
16:12:57 [jjcscribe]
3 Issues
16:13:11 [jjcscribe]
3.1 Issues 4.2, 5.2, 5.15, 5.16
16:13:26 [jjcscribe]
Jim takes chair for this item
16:13:40 [DanCon]
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16:13:58 [jjcscribe]
Guus: most of discussion has been on 5.2 should we have compliance levels?
16:14:07 [jjcscribe]
Guus: also on local ranges 5.15
16:14:27 [jjcscribe]
Guus %.2 and 5.16 are duplicates
16:15:02 [connolly]
connolly has joined #webont
16:15:23 [Zakim]
+DanC
16:15:31 [jjcscribe]
Guus: are we ready to make a decision on this issue?
16:15:46 [jhendler]
zakim, mute DanC
16:15:47 [Zakim]
DanC should now be muted
16:15:51 [connolly]
crud... battery in my phone is dead...
16:16:41 [connolly]
can I be heard?
16:16:48 [connolly]
I can hear now... odd
16:16:49 [jjcscribe]
no
16:16:51 [Massimo]
Zakim, unmute DanC
16:16:52 [Zakim]
DanC should no longer be muted
16:16:59 [Massimo]
try now dan ;)
16:17:38 [jjcscribe]
Straw poll: having a named subset?
16:17:57 [jhendler]
zakim, who is on the phone
16:17:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', jhendler. Try /msg Zakim help
16:17:59 [connolly]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:18:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, Jeremy, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, Pfps, ??P35, Leo, Guus, Libby, Welty., Pat_Hayes, Massimo, LynnT,
16:18:02 [Zakim]
... DanC
16:18:04 [jjcscribe]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:18:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Stanton, Stein, Jeremy, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P28, ??P39, ??P43, Pfps, ??P35, Leo, Guus, Libby, Welty., Pat_Hayes, Massimo, LynnT,
16:18:07 [Zakim]
... DanC
16:18:43 [Zakim]
+??P19
16:21:14 [jjcscribe]
Poll: a++-aaaa-++aaa+-a+++
16:21:54 [jjcscribe]
For 8, against 3
16:22:04 [jjcscribe]
Connolly can't live with
16:23:03 [jjcscribe]
Pat: why would this be a failure?
16:23:21 [jjcscribe]
Connolly: two levels reflect a lack opf decision.
16:23:49 [ChrisW]
do any other w3c standards have compliance levels?
16:24:11 [connolly]
yes, and it hurts
16:24:30 [jjcscribe]
Qu Mike Smith: how would a tool that partially supported the language advertise themselves?
16:26:38 [jjcscribe]
Hendler: two use cases are theausruus related
16:26:54 [jjcscribe]
For utput of tehasusrus only a small subset is needed.
16:28:02 [jjcscribe]
Hendler lots of outside support
16:28:37 [jjcscribe]
Tasks: expression of hierarchy versus reasoning about it.
16:30:17 [jjcscribe]
Discussion of cost
16:31:23 [jjcscribe]
Are these political problems?
16:32:51 [jjcscribe]
Time check?
16:33:30 [ChrisW]
jjc are you muted?
16:33:35 [jjcscribe]
Hendler: suggestion postpone issue but publish document
16:33:56 [jjcscribe]
Connolly can live witrh that, pfps finds it difficult
16:34:16 [jjcscribe]
I think I am muted now
16:34:53 [jjcscribe]
The coument would need to idneitfy that this is still open issue
16:37:16 [jjcscribe]
Hendler: assuming there are two sets of users with different needs what do we do?
16:37:26 [ChrisW]
did someone say PARTY???
16:37:37 [ChrisW]
I'm in favor of that
16:37:40 [jjcscribe]
Connolly: simpler one is version 1, then start work on more complicated one
16:39:01 [jjcscribe]
Stein: let's release documents and postpone issue
16:40:14 [jjcscribe]
Schriber: let's restarte issue 5.2 as a revisiting issue ...
16:41:50 [jjcscribe]
Chair: call question: we will release current documents, with OWL Lite, and have in issue list that we will revisit
16:41:56 [jjcscribe]
No opposition
16:42:02 [connolly]
so RESOLVED.
16:43:15 [jjcscribe]
5.15
16:43:33 [jjcscribe]
Zero/one cardinalities - we are unsure if they can be handled easily
16:44:00 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2002/07/11-webont-irc#T16-43-33
16:44:42 [ChrisW]
are we talking about 5.15 or 5.16?
16:44:58 [jjcscribe]
Should we do 5.15 in the same way as 5.2, i.e. make provisional decision and revisit
16:45:49 [jjcscribe]
Issue 4.2
16:46:07 [jjcscribe]
Hendler no one opposes mincardinality maxcaridniliaty and cardinality
16:46:49 [jjcscribe]
Proposal: include all three cardinality constructs from DAML
16:48:29 [jjcscribe]
Discussion
16:51:13 [jjcscribe]
Discussion also about what happened at ftf
16:51:20 [jjcscribe]
Heavy breather
16:51:51 [jjcscribe]
Dan is unhappy woith face 2 face decsion on this - he was scribing
16:53:01 [jjcscribe]
Hendler: propose that we close 4.2
16:54:20 [jjcscribe]
Guus: propsoe that we close 4.2
16:54:28 [jjcscribe]
Dan objection
16:54:41 [jjcscribe]
Dan I think we need 0 and 1 cardinalities
16:55:17 [ChrisW]
NO he's asking what you would call it if you wanted it
16:55:52 [jjcscribe]
Dan: I don't want to be able to say cardinality=6
16:56:03 [jjcscribe]
Hendler: that issue has not been rasied
16:58:05 [jjcscribe]
Lyn Stein?: if we decide that we only want 0 and 1 as cardinailities then this issue is intertwined
16:58:58 [jjcscribe]
Hendler: propose that we close issue 4.2 accepting DAML solution
16:59:21 [jjcscribe]
... with respect to the name cardinaility minCardinality maxCardinality
16:59:39 [jjcscribe]
no opposed
16:59:50 [ChrisW]
jjc are you muted
16:59:57 [jjcscribe]
abstrentions connolly stein
17:00:04 [jjcscribe]
so RESOLVED
17:02:34 [connolly]
" * mapInv (premise, conclusion). approved 30May" -- http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/
17:02:35 [jjcscribe]
ACTION jjc make propsoal for test case structure
17:02:41 [jjcscribe]
ACTION jimh produce test for 4.2
17:03:23 [Zakim]
-Marwan_Sabbouh
17:03:37 [jjcscribe]
5.15 local range restrictions will not be closed
17:03:53 [jjcscribe]
5.16 for OWL Lite only 0 or 1 cardinality
17:04:11 [jjcscribe]
this is not closed according to the f2f record
17:04:17 [Zakim]
+Marwan_Sabbouh
17:04:32 [connolly]
PROPOSED: to close 5.16 thus "- OWL Lite includes min/max cardinality restrictions of 0 and 1"
17:04:42 [jjcscribe]
no opposed
17:04:50 [jjcscribe]
abstain heflin
17:04:57 [jjcscribe]
so RESOLVED
17:05:40 [jjcscribe]
Agenda 3.2: issue 3.4, 4.1
17:06:40 [jjcscribe]
DAN: I like manytoone and oneToMany
17:06:57 [jjcscribe]
Guus and Dan discuss databases
17:07:36 [jjcscribe]
Guus: "keyAttribute" is db speak for unambiguous
17:08:48 [jjcscribe]
Examples:
17:09:00 [jjcscribe]
unambiguousProperty is social security number
17:09:01 [connolly]
ssn unambiguous for, say, Person
17:09:34 [jjcscribe]
if two people have same ssn then they are the same person
17:09:44 [jjcscribe]
height is a uniqueProepty
17:09:49 [jjcscribe]
each person has one height
17:10:06 [Zakim]
-Marwan_Sabbouh
17:10:20 [jjcscribe]
birthday is a unqieproeprty
17:12:08 [jjcscribe]
pfps even legally it is possible to have multiple ssn
17:13:24 [jjcscribe]
biological mother is unambiguous
17:13:43 [jhendler]
but not 1-1
17:14:01 [jhendler]
(i.e. I have multiple children, my children have a single mother)
17:14:07 [jjcscribe]
guus: is their an issue owner?
17:14:19 [jjcscribe]
Lynn Stein?
17:14:47 [connolly]
bioMother is not unambiguous; unambiguous is: p(x,z) ^ p(y,z) => x=y
17:15:10 [ChrisW]
does each issue have only one owner?
17:16:12 [libby]
unambiguous property doen;t have to universally unambiguous to be useful
17:16:13 [las]
I withdraw ownership unless I can convince myself that I understand the issue adequately.
17:16:31 [libby]
e.g. personalmbox at a particular time
17:17:17 [jhendler]
so if Lynn is motherof Joan and ?X is motherof Joan then ?x = Joan
17:17:40 [ChrisW]
I will volunteer to own it
17:17:49 [libby]
there have been several posts by different people saing why useful
17:18:28 [jjcscribe]
ACTION chriwsw to propose resolution of 3.4 and 4.1
17:18:55 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2002/07/11-webont-irc#T17-18-28
17:19:00 [jjcscribe]
Agenda 3.3
17:20:23 [jjcscribe]
pfps:
17:20:45 [jjcscribe]
Dan's MT is an attempt to make d+o fit better with rdf mt
17:21:20 [jjcscribe]
pfps did not like the daml constructirs having comprehension principle
17:21:54 [jjcscribe]
pfps's mt is more along fol lines (first order logic)
17:22:10 [jjcscribe]
pfps in this approach owl restrictions are syntactic
17:22:55 [jjcscribe]
in dan's approach a+B != b+a
17:23:17 [jjcscribe]
also issue to do with datatype property and object property
17:25:36 [jjcscribe]
ACTION pfps find example illustratin computational difficulties in having both datatypes and objects inintegrated domain
17:26:51 [libby]
danc - that's an excellent example, and came up on the Jena rist recently too
17:27:16 [jjcscribe]
ACTION dan point to use case for havign datatypes and obejct property in integrated domain
17:28:20 [jjcscribe]
discussion curtailed ...
17:28:37 [connolly]
for the curious: http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/sameStateP.rdf and http://www.w3.org/2002/03owlt/sameStateC.rdf
17:28:47 [connolly]
I'll elaborate in email
17:29:26 [jjcscribe]
4.2 still waiting ...
17:29:53 [jjcscribe]
Agenda 4.3
17:30:05 [jjcscribe]
The document title will be Abstract Syntax
17:30:18 [Zakim]
-Leo
17:30:30 [Zakim]
-Stein
17:30:33 [jjcscribe]
Action pat review abstract syntax
17:30:43 [jjcscribe]
abstrcat connolly review abstract syntax
17:30:58 [jjcscribe]
action terhorst review abstrcat syntax
17:31:00 [connolly]
ACTION: connolly review abstract syntax
17:31:44 [jjcscribe]
* it doesn't help that I mistype eveyrthing
17:32:05 [ChrisW]
bye
17:32:06 [Zakim]
-M_Smith
17:32:08 [Zakim]
-Pat_Hayes
17:32:10 [jjcscribe]
meeting adjourned
17:32:11 [Zakim]
-??P19
17:32:13 [Zakim]
-??P43
17:32:13 [Zakim]
-Welty.
17:32:14 [Zakim]
-??P28
17:32:15 [Zakim]
-Libby
17:32:15 [Zakim]
-Pfps
17:32:16 [Zakim]
-John_Stanton
17:32:19 [Zakim]
-??P39
17:32:24 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has left #webont
17:32:38 [jhendler]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:32:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeremy, Jim_Hendler, JeffH, ??P35, Guus, Massimo, LynnT, DanC
17:32:41 [Zakim]
-Jeremy
17:32:45 [libby]
libby has left #webont
17:32:59 [Zakim]
-JeffH
17:33:47 [Zakim]
-LynnT
17:33:58 [Zakim]
-??P35
17:36:34 [Zakim]
-Jim_Hendler
17:36:36 [Zakim]
-Guus
17:36:40 [Zakim]
-DanC
17:36:46 [Zakim]
-Massimo
17:36:47 [Zakim]
SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
19:27:36 [las]
las has left #webont
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Zakim has left #webont