IRC log of webont on 2002-06-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:46:19 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:52:40 [jhendler]: jhendler has joined #webont
15:54:15 [jjc]: jjc has joined #webont
15:54:33 [DanC_]: Hi Jeremy; all set to take minutes?
15:54:45 [jjc]: just about - ....
15:57:36 [jjc]: what's the ntelecon number?
15:58:10 [Zakim]: SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:58:16 [Zakim]: +John_Stanton
15:58:54 [Zakim]: +DanC
15:59:29 [Zakim]: +Jim_Hendler
15:59:42 [Zakim]: +Stein
16:00:12 [DanC_]: tel:+1-617-761-6200;postd=9326
16:00:15 [timfinin]: timfinin has joined #webont
16:00:24 [Zakim]: +??P14
16:00:37 [DanC_]: Zakim, ??P14 is JeremyC
16:00:39 [Zakim]: +JeremyC; got it
16:00:48 [lasLaptop]: lasLaptop has joined #webont
16:00:56 [DanC_]: Zakim, jjc is JeremyC
16:00:58 [Zakim]: sorry, DanC_, I do not recognize a party named 'jjc'
16:01:00 [Zakim]: +??P18
16:01:04 [Zakim]: +NickG
16:01:13 [DanC_]: Zakim, ??P18 is Rudiger
16:01:14 [Zakim]: +Rudiger; got it
16:01:17 [DanC_]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:18 [Zakim]: On the phone I see John_Stanton, DanC, Jim_Hendler, Stein, JeremyC, Rudiger, NickG
16:01:31 [Zakim]: +Marwan_Sabbouh
16:01:51 [Zakim]: +M_Smith
16:01:52 [Zakim]: +??P30
16:02:07 [DanC_]: Zakim, ??P30 is TimFinin
16:02:09 [Zakim]: +TimFinin; got it
16:02:13 [Zakim]: -Stein
16:02:17 [JosD]: JosD has joined #webont
16:02:19 [Zakim]: +Stein
16:02:45 [Zakim]: +??P35
16:02:50 [Zakim]: +Leo
16:03:01 [DanC_]: Zakim, ??P35 is ZivH
16:03:02 [Zakim]: +ZivH; got it
16:03:08 [Zakim]: +??P40
16:03:08 [Zakim]: +JeffH
16:03:20 [DanC_]: Zakim, ??P40 is JosDeRoo
16:03:22 [Zakim]: +JosDeRoo; got it
16:03:31 [DanC_]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:32 [Zakim]: On the phone I see John_Stanton, DanC, Jim_Hendler, JeremyC, Rudiger, NickG, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, TimFinin, Stein, ZivH, Leo, JosDeRoo, JeffH
16:04:10 [jhendler]: regrets from van Harmelen, McGuinness, dean, patel-schneider, trastour, miller
16:04:51 [jhendler]: regrets tabet, buswell
16:05:18 [DanC_]: documents: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf3.html#What:
16:05:22 [Zakim]: +Goto
16:06:09 [DanC_]: Zakim, Goto is JonathanDale
16:06:10 [Zakim]: +JonathanDale; got it
16:07:23 [jjcscribe]: Agenda: roll call as above
16:07:24 [Zakim]: +??P0
16:07:27 [jhendler]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/att-0173/01-OWLFeatureSynopsis.htm
16:07:36 [DanC_]: Zakim, ??P0 is ChrisWelty
16:07:38 [Zakim]: +ChrisWelty; got it
16:07:44 [jjcscribe]: Zakim, ??P0is ChrisW
16:07:45 [Zakim]: I don't understand '??P0is ChrisW', jjcscribe. Try /msg Zakim help
16:07:48 [Zakim]: +??P1
16:07:49 [jono]: jono has joined #webont
16:07:54 [jjcscribe]: Zakim, ??P0 is ChrisW
16:07:55 [Zakim]: sorry, jjcscribe, I do not recognize a party named '??P0'
16:08:09 [DanC_]: Zakim, ??P1 is DebM
16:08:10 [Zakim]: +DebM; got it
16:08:29 [DanC_]: [[
16:08:30 [DanC_]: SUNDAY JUNE 30
16:08:30 [DanC_]: 20:00 (or whenever) - Optional no host gathering at a local wine
16:08:30 [DanC_]: tasting/cafe/restaurant in Palo Alto.
16:08:30 [DanC_]: Niebaum-Coppola - http://www.paloaltoshop.com/pages/niebaum.html , 473
16:08:30 [DanC_]: University Ave., Palo Alto, California. Phone: (650) 752-0350
16:08:31 [DanC_]: ]]
16:08:35 [DanC_]: -- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf3.html#What:2
16:08:37 [jjcscribe]: DebM: will be social event monday night
16:09:27 [Zakim]: +??P20
16:09:29 [jjcscribe]: owl lite synopsis
16:09:41 [jjcscribe]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/att-0173/01-OWLFeatureSynopsis.htm
16:09:45 [DanC_]: Zakim, ??P20 is HermanT
16:09:46 [Zakim]: +HermanT; got it
16:10:05 [Zakim]: +??P25
16:10:07 [Zakim]: -Leo
16:10:08 [jjcscribe]: JimH: change is naming to OWLLite from Level 1
16:10:29 [DanC_]: Zakim, ??P25 is Guus
16:10:30 [Zakim]: +Guus; got it
16:10:50 [Zakim]: +Leo
16:10:51 [jjcscribe]: Zakim, who's on the phone
16:10:52 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who's on the phone', jjcscribe. Try /msg Zakim help
16:11:05 [jjcscribe]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:11:06 [Zakim]: On the phone I see John_Stanton, DanC, Jim_Hendler, JeremyC, Rudiger, NickG, Marwan_Sabbouh, M_Smith, TimFinin, Stein, ZivH, JosDeRoo, JeffH, JonathanDale, ChrisWelty, DebM,
16:11:09 [Zakim]: ... HermanT, Guus, Leo
16:11:24 [jjcscribe]: No comments on that issue or on document
16:11:34 [jhendler]: ---------
16:11:36 [jhendler]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/att-0124/01-owl-ref-proposed.html
16:13:36 [jjcscribe]: authos of DAML+OIL document have been included by default
16:13:59 [DanC_]: DanC is happy to be listed as editor/author/whatever.
16:14:06 [jjcscribe]: DanC and LynnC confirmed at this meeting
16:14:14 [DanC_]: (I'm not sure W3C process allows "author"; I'd have to check that)
16:14:56 [jhendler]: -------------------------------
16:15:05 [jjcscribe]: Next doc
16:15:13 [jhendler]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/att-0118/01-specification.html
16:15:40 [DanC_]: "# Formal Specification of the OWL Web Ontology Language"
16:15:48 [DanC_]: ??? introductory?
16:17:42 [jhendler]: danC_ - I'm not sure what you mean by "introductory"
16:18:15 [jjcscribe]: concern about removal opf restrictions with unusual features
16:18:22 [Zakim]: -DebM
16:18:32 [jjcscribe]: DanC I never minded allowing them
16:19:39 [jjcscribe]: JeremyC: I can't see any problem having these constraints
16:19:53 [jjcscribe]: Qu: is this going to be normative?
16:20:03 [jjcscribe]: Ans: this will be released as a working draft
16:21:19 [jjcscribe]: ?? I would like to see the abstract sysntax eventually replaced by the owl triple syntax
16:21:34 [DanC_]: I'm confused by this: "This document contains neither a presentation syntax nor an exchange syntax for OWL. An XML presentation syntax may be defined, as an XML schema."
16:22:06 [jjcscribe]: ?? The normal model is for the concrete syntax to map to the abstracxt syntax, and then the semantics is defined on the abstract syntax
16:22:30 [jjcscribe]: DanC: confusion about role of XML schema
16:23:25 [jjcscribe]: Lots of people: title should be abstract syntax
16:23:38 [DanC_]: I don't know what I would send to the mailing list. just "I don't see the purpose of this document"?
16:24:02 [lasLaptop]: jjcscribe, I just noticed that (above) you confirmed "DanC and LynnC" authorship of owl-ref-proposed.html....I'm LynnS :o)
16:24:16 [jjcscribe]: sorry :(
16:24:52 [jjcscribe]: Jos: where is the elsewhere where the formal meaning will be described
16:25:11 [jjcscribe]: There was a mail message ...
16:26:50 [jhendler]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/0082.html
16:27:16 [jjcscribe]: Jeremy: the abstract syntax detaches the semantics from the triples
16:29:39 [jjcscribe]: Jeremy: the triples are in the domain of discourse
16:29:56 [jjcscribe]: DanC: prefer to define semantics on top of triple
16:30:13 [jjcscribe]: ChrisW: the sbatrcat syntax is much clearer for humans to read and write
16:31:27 [jjcscribe]: Once we have identified the space using the abstract syntax will allow us to then define the mapping from the exchange syntax to the abstract
16:31:57 [jjcscribe]: LynnS: some docs for outside users, some for the WG
16:34:17 [lasLaptop]: Um, I think I also said: for the WG, we ultimately need something that goes from owl-as-used to semantics, and this document only goes part of that way.
16:34:43 [jjcscribe]: JimH: why can't we use the expressions from MikeD's doc?
16:34:55 [jjcscribe]: JeffH: RDF has lots of variants
16:35:12 [jjcscribe]: JeremyC: RDF/XML has lots of choices, the graph is the same in all cases
16:36:47 [jjcscribe]: DanC: I don't understand what this is about
16:36:53 [jjcscribe]: ChrisW I find it very useful
16:36:59 [jjcscribe]: Jeff I find it useufl
16:37:20 [jjcscribe]: ACTION jimH summarize thsi discussion to mailing list
16:37:37 [jjcscribe]: Jeff I am not sure I would publish it though
16:38:16 [schreiber]: q+
16:38:18 [jjcscribe]: ChrisW something like this should be published
16:38:47 [jjcscribe]: someone: we also need the model theory
16:39:14 [jjcscribe]: you can't read the model theory without the abstract syntax
16:39:25 [jjcscribe]: you can read teh abstract syntax without model theory
16:39:55 [jjcscribe]: Hermann: this is close to being publishable
16:40:13 [DanC_]: evidence that we don't need an abstract syntax (other that RDF graph syntax) to do our model theory: # layering (5.3,5.10): a first-order same-syntax model theory Dan Connolly (Wed, Jun 19 2002) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/0152.html
16:40:14 [jjcscribe]: Guus: is the presentation syntax related to the abstract syntax?
16:40:25 [jjcscribe]: JimH: Peter has said yes.
16:40:59 [jjcscribe]: Jeremy I would like publication
16:41:13 [jhendler]: ---------
16:41:25 [jhendler]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/att-0086/01-reqdoc.html
16:41:50 [jjcscribe]: some reviews saying its OK
16:42:26 [jjcscribe]: JimH: at the f2f we will propose publication
16:44:18 [jjcscribe]: ACTION jeff e-mail list to indicate imminent publication of reqdoc
16:46:35 [jjcscribe]: any other issus for f2f?
16:46:46 [jjcscribe]: JeremyC: scope of TEST?
16:46:58 [jjcscribe]: JimH, DanC: yes that is on the agenda?
16:48:05 [jjcscribe]: quick action review ...
16:48:12 [jjcscribe]: not scribed properly
16:48:38 [DanC_]: pls continue: ACTION: Dan Connolly: to produce two test cases: (1) (classes as instances)
16:48:38 [DanC_]: from requirements document (2) oracle data base example
16:49:01 [jjcscribe]: DanC set up cvs access
16:49:15 [DanC_]: DONE: Jeremy Carroll: will also produce a test case
16:49:33 [jjcscribe]: delete last line
16:49:37 [DanC_]: for reference, 20 Jun minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/0168.html
16:49:53 [Zakim]: -ChrisWelty
16:49:56 [jjcscribe]: DanC and JeremyC will continue after telecon to do CVS access issue
16:50:37 [jjcscribe]: no telecon next week (4th July)
16:50:58 [jjcscribe]: Next telecon july 11th
16:51:29 [jjcscribe]: social event on sunday and monday
16:51:37 [Zakim]: -M_Smith
16:51:38 [Zakim]: -TimFinin
16:51:39 [jjcscribe]: meeting adjorned
16:51:40 [Zakim]: -Marwan_Sabbouh
16:51:41 [Zakim]: -Stein
16:51:44 [Zakim]: -ZivH
16:51:45 [Zakim]: -Leo
16:51:45 [jono]: sunday night: Optional no host gathering at a local wine tasting/cafe/restaurant in Palo Alto. Niebaum-Coppola - http://www.paloaltoshop.com/pages/niebaum.html , 473 University Ave., Palo Alto, California. Phone: (650) 752-0350
16:51:47 [Zakim]: -Guus
16:51:50 [Zakim]: -JosDeRoo
16:51:51 [Zakim]: -HermanT
16:51:51 [DanC_]: jeremy, wanna stay here? or separate call?
16:51:54 [Zakim]: -JeffH
16:51:55 [Zakim]: -NickG
16:52:03 [Zakim]: -Jim_Hendler
16:52:08 [Zakim]: -JonathanDale
16:52:12 [DanC_]: tel:+1-913-491-0501 <- my office phone
16:52:17 [DanC_]: logger_1, pointer?
16:52:18 [logger_1]: See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2002-06-27#T16-52-17
16:52:49 [Zakim]: -JeremyC
16:52:51 [Zakim]: -DanC
16:52:56 [DanC_]: RRSAgent, pointer?
16:52:56 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2002/06/27-webont-irc#T16-52-56
16:53:05 [Zakim]: -John_Stanton
16:53:10 [Zakim]: -Rudiger
16:53:11 [Zakim]: SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
16:53:12 [jhendler]: jhendler has left #webont
19:03:48 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #webont