08:13:54 RRSAgent has joined #erswad 08:14:30 maxf has joined #erswad 08:15:51 In the room: 08:16:23 Charles McCathieNevile, Jim Ley, Nick Gibbins, Paul Shabajee, Jill Evans, Liddy Nevile, 08:16:48 Max Froumentin, Wendy Chisholm, Jonathan Chetwynd, Bert Bos, Dave Pawson, Nick Kew 08:17:26 Libby Miller, Nadia Heninger, Ian Hickson, Dan Brickley 08:19:10 Bert-lap has joined #erswad 08:20:47 wendy has joined #erswad 08:21:16 CMN Topics for today: 08:21:41 What kind of interfaces are there for making annotations - demos please 08:21:56 Zakim has joined #erswad 08:22:12 agenda+ What kind of interfaces are there for making annotations - demos please 08:22:27 agenda+ What uses are we making of annotations? 08:22:58 agenda+ how is information stored? Does this meet our needs, and can we interoperate between different storage systems? 08:23:59 agenda+ Can these storage mechanisms cope with other kinds of annotations, and can we interoperate with those. 08:24:16 nadia has joined #erswad 08:24:30 libby has joined #erswad 08:25:46 annotations creation systems: libby, dan, nadia, jim, niq, dp 08:26:18 (for images) 08:27:11 Hixie has joined #erswad 08:27:14 danbri has joined #erswad 08:27:22 nmg has joined #erswad 08:28:04 Libby MIller: Codepiction information 08:34:25 http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/rweb/imgmeta 08:34:48 adding data for co-depiction - two or more people in a picture. 08:35:33 We created the tool to search information and then realised that it was difficult to add information to the database. 08:35:43 So this is a webform that collects information. 08:35:59 This system doesn't actually store the information - we don't want to own it. 08:36:38 So we persudae other people to store their information, and submit it to the database. 08:41:48 [Libby goes through the process of adding a codepiction] 08:42:36 LM: We copy the RDF and store it somewhere, then give the URI of that somewhere to the database. 08:42:50 ...it's a very simple system that gives an easy way to get the data. 08:43:43 Questions... 08:43:57 JC It isn't possible to change the input fields easily is it? 08:44:09 ... I have different requireemnts for things I want to find. 08:44:28 LM You can store any RDF you want in the database and the query can get anything out. 08:44:39 JC So I just need to work out how to add something. 08:44:56 LM The issue is that generating the forms is really hard work - I don't have a schema for it. 08:45:24 DB When Libby demonstrated you go through forms and get RDF, and then you put the RDF into the Web. 08:45:45 ...ther was one thing that was dealing with the data for ages - now there are two. 08:46:33 DP What is the objective, other than playing with RDF, to have the data elsewhere than with the image you are describing? 08:47:03 JL So you can annotate pictures that you don't own. 08:47:29 CMN The system doesn't say anything about whether it should be in the same place or a different place. 08:49:01 Dan Brickley: Amaya - demo by screenshot 08:49:20 Amaya is an authoring tool produced by W3C http://www.w3.org/Amaya 08:49:43 DB This stuff was a toy to play with things, but it turns out to be useful for playing... 08:50:05 we wanted to say a bit more about photos than we had - what other things are in the photo. 08:50:29 DB some people on the web are going to be obsessed with ash trays 08:50:49 The early stuff, like libby's demo, said "there is a photo and it depicts chaals and dan" 08:51:09 (it also depicts an ashtray and a table. Some people are interested in that but not everyone) 08:51:31 This also comes from a project collecting information about pictures from the medical world. 08:51:58 Creating authoring tools for web content is expensive, but we want to have tools that people can use - even the form thing is slow. 08:52:21 So what we want is an image overlaid with regions. We had a way of doing that in HTML by using imagemaps. 08:52:42 They are used in an odd way, but they basically overlay polygons on an image. 08:53:04 We have revisited this in Amaya, which is an SVG editor. 08:53:35 We create an image with a photo as a background, and trace out paths over it to identify the things that are in it. 08:53:51 Amaya let us do this easily, and save the new image to the web. 08:54:31 http://www.w3.org/2001/08/rdfweb/rdfweb-svg-amaya.jpg 08:54:33 Then we had to try and add the RDF data... 08:54:45 http://www.w3.org/2001/08/rdfweb/foafwho/imagemap/gimp-w34.imagemap.html 08:54:46 previous URI: screenshot of Amaya 08:55:39 then an HTML image map that does something similar. 08:56:04 Created by GIMP (an image tool). Usually the image map is for clicking on to follow as links. 08:56:29 I ran the HTML from GIMP through HTML tidy - http://www.w3.org/People/Ragget/Tidy 08:56:37 to clean up the HTML. 08:57:03 Then Max used XSLT http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL to create a transformation 08:57:06 http://www.w3.org/2001/08/rdfweb/foafwho/imagemap/imagemap2svg.xslt 08:57:29 that generates SVG - like what we used with Amaya 08:57:57 DP It was GIMP that let you pick out the outline? 08:58:34 DB Yes. but there are hundreds of tools for editing HTML imagemaps. So the smart thing was to work out how to use existing tools - take their output, transform it through a couple of tools and end up with something. 08:58:46 JC Is this available on the Web as a demonstration? 08:59:00 DB No, it is scattered around... 08:59:09 ... maybe this record helps a bit. 09:01:16 http://www.w3.org/2001/08/rdfweb/foafwho/imagemap/imagemap2svg.xslt 09:01:21 So we can create data that says "there is a rock rabbit" (by using an RDF dictionary), that is depicted in an image, and there is a person in that image - Damian Steer 09:02:05 Each of the individuals can be noted by email address - so we can play with other tools. 09:03:08 Wordnet: a dictionary based on an electronic dictionary that provides class hierarchies of things. 09:03:19 CMN Is there an interface for dealing with this stuff? 09:03:21 DB No. 09:03:45 nadiaa has joined #erswad 09:04:45 We can trace the things in the image, but if we had a way to add wordnet definitions easily that would be helpful - we can easily create clip-art... 09:05:06 we look for a mammal, and we find out that there is a picture of a rock-hyrax, which is a type of mammal... 09:06:06 http://xmlns.com/wordnet/1.6/Rock_hrax 09:06:11 What is fun about this is that it isn't massive heavily-funded projects - these things work on very simple tools that do just enough to make useful things 09:06:24 http://xmlns.com/wordnet/1.6/Rock_hyrax 09:06:50 Jim Ley: More demonstrations 09:07:01 A tool with no name? 09:07:19 http://www.jibbering.com/svg/AnnotateImage.html 09:07:34 Lucky for me Dan and Libby have explained the rationale 09:07:52 So I saw the demos that we have seen, and worked out how to do those in SVG. 09:08:01 http://www.jibbering.com/svg/AnnotateImage.html 09:08:10 http://jibbering.com/imgs/shepherds.jpg 09:08:11 DB Amaya is evocative and inspiring, but not a mass-market tool. 09:08:33 JL I try to do everything so it works in Internet Explorer - which millions of people do use. 09:09:08 There is a form that asks for some information about an image. The text interface 09:09:17 is clunky - on the TODO list. 09:09:39 In theory you can also add RDF in nTriple format (in theory - that bit doesn't work yet) 09:11:07 CMN So the interface requires explorer plus an SVG plugin 09:11:21 JL Don't need explorer - can use any browser with the plugin. 09:11:39 JC Can we have some more documentation in the tool? 09:12:04 DB In terms of things we have noticed, wordnet is cool but typing URIs is a pain - we need a tool that does it better. 09:13:14 ...Documentation has been weak - a lot of this is done as fast development. It would be nicer to 09:13:22 ...get more of that done. 09:13:38 (dan finishes tracing out the sheep) 09:14:44 JL The tool then gives you some options - the SVG with the traced line. You can also add text to the image that labels the sheep and the shepherd (or whatever you labelled the things) 09:15:23 You can get the RDF that describes the picture. And then I alllow you to store the RDF on my server to re-use it later on. 09:16:44 So I can search through the annotations and say "is there a thing which has the wordnet label of being a sheep?" and then shows the thing it finds in its database. 09:18:29 I have also created something that asks for the same information that libby does, but also lets you trace out the person. Again, this is in SVG. When you generate it, I store it locally and submit it to Libby's codepiction system. 09:20:31 http://rdfweb.org/people/danbri/2001/11/rabbit/rock.rdf 09:23:09 Coffee break 09:25:50 http://jibbering.com/rdfsvg/1025083477768.rdf -- I just annotated the rock hyrax w/ jim's tool 09:26:46 http://jibbering.com/rdfsvg/search.1?noun=Rock_hyrax :) 09:36:44 Coffee break... 09:39:04 DB Now you can find a picture of a Rock Hyrax on the Web... 09:39:54 JL well, it stores an outline, not a region as such. Minor tool bug. 09:40:27 Nadia Heninger: This is RDFPic - a standalone application in Java that stores its data inside the image. 09:40:58 This started as a tool for entering other types of information - Dublin Core information, a schema containing technical information about a photo, etc. 09:41:40 The tool lets you add information about a person in the picture, and make an outline, and stores SVG information 09:42:11 (not directly as SVG, but as RDF that can be used to generate SVG). 09:42:45 It can read EXIF information - a binary format that contains information about photos, automatically generated by some digital cameras 09:43:48 This demo is of a development update - the original version is available, and this update will be made "soon" 09:44:48 http://jigsaw.w3.org/rdfpic/ 09:45:29 JL We can store the information and submit it - for example to the codepiction database. 09:45:47 marja has joined #erswad 09:47:00 Libby, it's handy having a list of the people available. 09:47:54 Nadia: Yes, although it would be nice to have a way of identifying them (at the moment there are just boxes and you need to click on wach one to see what it refers to) 09:48:41 The interesting thing about this is that it uses XMP - Adobe's format based on RDF. They have some tools that can scan that and put information into different formats like PDF... 09:48:53 LM Can you save the RDF locally? Remotely? 09:49:41 NH: You can cut and paste to save remotely ;-) It saves the information into the image. If it moves around then you need to deal with the thing that is being described in a bit of editing trickery. 09:50:13 NH This uses a different model for the information. 09:50:23 JC You put this on the Web - what can people do with it? 09:50:29 NH it comes out as RDF. 09:51:09 JL I have tools that can read that RDF and do some things with it. But it won't consume the data that this tool produces, but that isn't going to be a lot of work to make it happen 09:51:50 DB It turns out a lot of the photos that have been described are easy to find as images from google - not because it reads RDF but because it reads HTML pages generated. 09:52:01 Bert Bos: I can show two things that use this information. 09:53:15 One is a thumbnail tool - it makes a page of thumbnail images that includes the photo, a thumbnail, pointers to the RDF, and you can get to the image in a page that includes other data extracted from the RDF (title, creator, etc). 09:54:59 This is done with a little bash script... 09:55:06 Oh, wanted to mention Gerald's photo/rdf tools for the record: http://impressive.net/people/gerald/2000/09/photo.html 09:55:44 http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/thumbnails-rdf - Bert's script 09:56:36 DP There is a question of whether the information is stored in the image, or the annotation is somewhere else 09:56:58 BB: Yves Lafon has a different thubnailing tool that uses the same information in a differnt style 09:57:22 DB wonders if we are getting enough of these tools that we should be concerned about vocabularies being interchangeable 09:57:59 LM There is an issue here. I was talking to someone who wants to store information inside the images so he can move them around later. 09:58:17 DP What kind of format should we be using for these annotations to package them up? 09:58:41 JL There is RDF, which lets us pass it around. XMP is a good way to do it. 09:59:12 NH There are tools that can extract XMP from different formats. DanBri has made a tool that can extract that information. 09:59:37 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/200206/imagemeta/extract/extract 09:59:41 DB I made a little web service - give it a URI and it extracts data. 10:00:22 DB The interesting thing about XMPis that it ignores information it doesn't care about - it is very standard in what it passes around and ignores stuff being used by particular communities. 10:01:08 Adobe have made lots of products based on this. But we can extract that information into RRDF and from there into a Web page. 10:01:29 nadia: you don;t have to erase the xif data with rdf data - both can coexist 10:01:38 ...xmp is not a full rdf inplementation 10:01:42 sure 10:02:05 ....this means that nadia is not corect in addiung teh more complex codepiction rdf in xmp 10:02:24 ..although it is a really uswefl way of storing arbitrary RDf in documents 10:02:38 danbri: mixes up storage and the format [?] 10:03:13 ...would be good to show them this sort of thing - they're not really expefring this. phpotoshop 7 has the XMP in it 10:03:41 ps: for museums community would be great to store the rdf in the pic so it never gets lost 10:03:52 dp: standardize? 10:04:06 chaals: usecases are great, esp the museums one 10:04:49 niq: classroom situation - submitting the images to teacher 10:05:50 I think your should store to the image when you can - but if cannot then you can still store elsewhere 10:05:54 jc: if you clicked on the images it offers you 'more of the same' e.g. more popgroups with similar attributes in an image-based jukebox 10:06:46 danbri: depends on how detiled the metadta is, e.g. colour 10:06:52 jc: yes, image based 10:07:29 ps: images have stories; what makes an image really great is the story behind it. all this info is text; how do you make that information avilable as non-text? 10:08:02 danbri: e.g. mixing with calendar type rdf 10:08:44 ps: data protection act? 10:09:21 ..explains - have to contact the person, check ok or not 10:09:27 ... if I collect data on anybody, I am suposed t register the fact, get your agreement that I can use information about you and tell you why I want it and have permission for each user 10:09:30 ...uk thing - personal data 10:10:05 danbri: subscribe to my yahoogroups list i'm gettign data on you 10:10:12 ...its going to be a problem 10:10:51 LM The issue is when somebody makes information available about someone else. 10:11:12 LN When you aggregate information you are doing something different to information that is already out there, and would bneed permission 10:11:27 dnbri: data oriented search 10:11:44 ...maybe how to draw the distinction. amybe rdf is same as google 10:11:53 chaals - google could fall foul too... 10:12:10 ...answer - we don;t know - build these systems to test it 10:13:49 Libby Miller: Codepiction 10:14:17 LM There is a demo I am trying to do where you embed information as XHTML, which can be harvested by a tool to generate RDF. 10:14:51 http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2001/08/codepict/ 10:15:14 You give an email address and it looks for all the pictures that say they depict the person who has that email address 10:16:29 LM This is a simple RDF database of images, and who is in them. 10:16:40 The second demo tries to work out the paths between people. 10:18:22 liddy has joined #erswad 10:19:20 http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2002/02/paths/ 10:19:35 http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/discovery/2001/08/codepict/ 10:20:06 LM: the paths things is nice and fast becasue it uwes an RDF query to build a relational database optimised 10:20:31 chaals: usecase - only let me see this (rude/strage) photo if you have the right access 10:21:14 LM This path thing is nice and fast, becuase it doesn't directly use the RDF - it runs its queery and creates a fast XML database for this one question. 10:21:35 danbri: normally you expect to ahve control over images, but thses images and their annotatiosn can go wandering round the web - its unexpected and unsettling 10:22:02 ....fair use requirements for the image - langauge doesn;t exist yet - privacy and rights information 10:22:24 chaalsBRS has changed the topic to: logs: http://www.w3.org/2002/06/26-erswad-irc info http://www.w3.org/2002/05/er- 10:22:52 chaalsBRS has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2002/06/26-erswad-irc logs http://www.w3.org/2002/05/er-swade- 10:23:04 bb: agenda - a standardriosed machine-readable api for accessing the data 10:23:08 ? 10:23:08 chaalsBRS has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2002/06/26-erswad-irc - http://www.w3.org/2002/05/er-swade-f2f 10:24:08 bb: a machine can;'t deduce how to fill in a web form 10:24:34 liddy has joined #erswad 10:24:38 bb: form exprtessed in RDF? 10:24:55 lm i'd like to do that. 10:25:04 .. say that in a human and/or machine readable way. 10:25:20 .. have the database say "i can tell you all this stuff" 10:25:33 .. not sure how to do machine-readably. 10:25:44 ...maybe daml? 10:26:05 dp: xforms? 10:26:18 ...could you generate an xform? 10:26:40 bb: yes maybe - that's what I was thinking 10:27:04 LM: don;t know how to describe the schemna to do this - woudl e very cool 10:27:28 bb web services? perhaps in description lang 10:27:31 danbri: we have a webservice...not sure what else you need 10:27:44 libby: but you don;t know what's in the database 10:27:50 dp: rddl? 10:28:10 danbri: not sure if robust enough for very larag ethings like Wordnet 10:28:32 generating an Xform from RDF beneficial also to annotations - need application profile and some presentation description 10:29:44 would be able to show new properties without programming the interface 10:29:50 I thinjk its worth investiagting 10:30:04 danbri demos RDFAuthor querying over soap 10:30:23 ...a particla description of something can be used as a query (visually) 10:30:35 s/particla/partial 10:31:02 ..craete a fragmented description of your area of interest and then say what bits you don;t know 10:31:45 ..this is basically the usual query structure for RDF 10:33:49 another demo of using information: http://rdfweb.org/2002/svgsemantics/picsng-demo.html 10:34:56 danbri talks about PICS 10:35:05 ...e.g. as embedded in teh w3c homepage 10:35:31 danbri: "i can't read b/c it's curly brackets instead of pointy brackets" :) 10:35:39 :) 10:35:59 chaals - ncludes a rating for canadianness 10:36:40 ...rating true for w3.org/ and anything else that starts with the url - no sex, no violence... 10:37:17 ...also says who makes the claims 10:37:24 ...ratings are numbers 10:37:36 ...gives you a url for the ratings definietion place 10:38:36 danbri: pics agressed a difficult social problems: don;t want a single committee saying what is rude - allows different communites 10:38:53 ...differenbt communites could also make claims according to teh categires 10:39:43 ...there was a spec for a pics label filter protocol - a simple machine-intereface for porography description " get me the lebel for playboy.com' 10:39:46 with Annotea can choose different communities by choosing annotation servers 10:39:52 ...no business model 10:39:57 (foir pics) 10:40:07 ...this might also be an issue for rdf remote access, servers 10:40:13 ...pics is dead... 10:40:49 ...pics descriptions could not be mixed well. with RDF you can mix them better - people, images, cvs etc etc 10:41:02 ... a big architectural improvement 10:41:50 ...can say - not just - is payboy rude, but find me all the things with a rude rating between 7 and 9 10:42:15 ...comes doen to repurposig the data - add the bits that you want to know 10:42:46 ...pic: http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/photos/2002/05/31/002120.JPG 10:42:59 == a guy pulling a truck along with his genitals, in bath 10:43:19 ...not intrinsically a teaching resource, a piece of art, a piece of bad photography... 10:43:29 ...but could be any of these things... 10:44:11 ...can be annotated using Jim's tool: http;//rdfweb.org/2002/svgsemantics/picsdemo/rdf-taboo.rdf 10:44:18 annotates the parts of the image 10:44:28 ...pics architectiure in the RDF world 10:44:55 ...can be annotated in lots of places. e.g. society for banning rude things could say somewhere that penises are rude 10:45:27 ...no one langauge for saying this - can have your own langauge 10:47:07 ...ruby script, which iterates through the contents of the image, for example for translating these categories terms into different languages - images are interestly non-langauge speciaic 10:47:49 danbri shows: http://rdfweb.org/2002/svgsemantics/picsdemo/sample_filtered_output.svg 10:48:16 ...the tool finds the rude things in the database and displays them i9n a different way 10:48:32 ...but can do this in reverse " show me pictures of all the rude things" 10:49:16 liddy has joined #erswad 10:49:26 ...this dual use also applies to rights management information - its really useful to have one single name for a movie whether you are a p2p file ripper or you own the rights to the film, to identify it 10:49:53 danbri: would like to take lots of clipart, markup in RDf using different tools and see if they interoperate. 10:49:58 ..some probs aleady: 10:50:03 - people's arms 10:50:25 - wordnet can be perjorative; there are also much better tools for certain domains 10:50:44 ...not clear hiow to connec teh generic tools and the vast thesauri 10:51:13 ps: can you picck out images annotated by libby alone? 10:51:32 ...access contraol v important, e.g. just information catalogued by librarians 10:51:46 jj: they have already addressed this in annotea - later 10:52:07 danbri: we can do this in rdf 10:52:33 dp: is it reasonable to assuem you could have many descriptions of the data - e.g. student and expert 10:52:52 ..if I'm desparate, give me anything; if there are experts, give me those 10:53:27 chaals, yes, though expernsive, and depends on the iamge 10:54:13 ...an ex-art historian, wants to see how my friends describe images, then can get some idea of how they might describe a picture that I don;t know. everyone leaves out a differentb thing 10:55:42 jc: has a bunch of images in a page that you can mocve around; the relations between teh images have semantic information. e.g. cat and dustbin, or a cat and a mouse, an immeduate connotation 10:55:56 ...any thoughts on this - a deep problem... 10:57:24 dp: if W3C were to pick up on this, then Hatfield has a particular sklill in describing images for people; knowing why you are describing it and what for is very important 10:58:28 jc: a few years ago - lots of auro-erotic asphyxiation - just because you ahve the rope, the organge etc, doesn;t tell you what is happening in teh information 10:59:00 danbri: also the human-readbale prose is very important (and expensive) 10:59:08 dp: and all the text tends to bve brief 10:59:44 dp: my only request is to ensure you can insert paragraphed text 11:00:53 [discussion of afternnon's agenda] 11:00:56 chaals - annotea 11:01:14 ...also interested in whether the tools can talk to each other? 11:02:30 bb: a tech question - a way of matching different fragments of RDF with different schemas and models, e.g. a photographer is just a string, or a firstname, last name. 11:03:25 ...I knwo I can match those myself. maybe this is a general operation we can namer and describe. maybe any node in rdf might be able to be replaced by an intermedate b-node which can help you find more matches 11:03:49 chaals: also, what use is thiise stuff - playing about or further applicateion, usecases 11:04:17 danbri: not just codepiction, but categorisation, parts of the pictures 11:04:22 also I guess we need to add different contexts in the annotated resource e.g. not just XPointer but also SVG area or a time for movies 11:04:45 chaasl: what do we want to do with image information ion general 11:04:53 marja - interesting 11:05:19 niq: large archives of satellite images, global positioning 11:05:34 dp/niq demo 11:06:13 dp: when cited people look at the picture of teh tndall family 9in the room, a painting, they get caertin information 11:07:08 ....blind people, how do they get the realtion between teh parts, the overall description of the painting - aim is to give the blind person a cmparable amount of information about the painting as signed people 11:07:38 ...not parts, but navigation within the image, not mouse-driven, a 'navigation map' of the iamge 11:08:29 ...get differet pieces of information abotu different parts of teh iamge, e.g. 'a 14 year old girl, 90% t th right and 50% up'; can get these faciliteis for description in svg, but not the navigation 11:09:35 maxf has joined #erswad 11:09:44 jj: this is the same - if we can describe thatg image in a 'codepcitoopn areas' kind of way, then we can relate the parts of teh image together. it can help you with your application - other peopel can aid your usecase by doing the annotatiions for their own benefit 11:09:57 if done right can get at least main parts/subparts from SVG but ui not usually supports this 11:10:41 chaals: for info, lynx/linx has this vocabulary - behind, under 11:11:56 ...can extract information inn the svg for other uses. chaals thinks the soureccode is avilable somewhere. also someone in geneva, phd, can assign sound information and also mouse feedback information to regions of the image 11:12:34 ...at the moment uses binary content, proprietory 11:13:49 danbri: thinks jim is rights in saying that dp's needs and codepiction things is quite similar 11:15:02 ...would be very cool to be able to grab the information dp siad about the iamges and associate them with a region 11:15:34 dp: yes; sme people are specialised at describing things for blind eople; would be good to get this information, if only for the demos 11:15:55 describing images from the National Braille ASsociation. we were able to publish an excerpt from their manual: http://www.w3.org/2000/08/nba-manual/Overview.html 11:15:55 danbri: this isn;t the only way to do this, we know this; we would liek help in making it usefgul for accessibility 11:16:32 ps: a museum expert would describe the image in yet another way. would be graet to be asble to find the sorts of annotatios that you need 11:16:44 dp: - totally differnt usecases 11:16:53 danbri: lets's try and do that! 11:17:20 chaals - "what questions have been answered about this image?" 11:19:06 libby: posible output of this meeting - a multiply described image, uising different tools, for different communites 11:19:43 ps: filter project - difefrent descriptions of images in teh filter project (jill evans) - would be even beter if could do this with tools such as jims 11:20:31 jill would like to build up a database of how peopel have used these images (e.g. for teching and learning) 11:20:38 marja has joined #erswad 11:21:06 filter exercise in describing images: http://www.filter.ac.uk/exercise/ 11:21:47 ...rating is also useful 11:22:02 we have kit - maybe we could arrange a bridge 11:22:13 or if it's just you maybe we could call you 11:22:38 thats ok 11:23:02 I'll take shower while you eat first :-) 11:23:11 ps: show me all the pictures of images of things that fly - doesn;t work in current technology (noone says that birds fly; will usually pick up penguins) 11:23:25 we are wondering what happened to lunch. It doesn't seem to be arriving. 11:23:29 ...RDF/ontologies could help with this and make catloguig cheaper 11:23:54 we do have a bridge (just fyi) zakim. 11:24:13 when i requested it for monday, i got it for yest and today as well. 11:24:24 when do you start again? 11:24:25 (i now realize i might not have passed that info along...) 11:24:52 1.45? (time here is now 12.30) 11:24:54 i have several possible use cases...but some are way out there. 11:25:31 same as the other day... 11:25:45 lunch. Back at 1.45 pm local time 11:25:49 ---lunch arrives---- 11:26:41 it's in the log from monday, i'll have to locate after lunch. 11:54:15 Zakim has left #erswad 12:30:40 Hixie has joined #erswad 12:33:07 marja has joined #erswad 12:37:11 Hixie has joined #erswad 12:40:34 Hixie has joined #erswad 12:45:00 hi all 12:45:34 hi ericP - others are probably still eating 12:45:43 roger 12:48:39 hia marja, ericp 12:48:48 hi libby 12:50:31 monday's minutes: http://www.w3.org/2002/06/24-erswad-irc 12:50:52 Tuesday's log (they aren't really minutes actually): http://www.w3.org/2002/06/25-erswad-irc 12:50:59 wendy has joined #erswad 12:51:03 Today's: http://www.w3.org/2002/06/26-erswad-irc 12:51:20 Do people want to dial in? 12:55:27 afternoon: 12:55:43 charles: would like to tlk about annotea 12:55:52 ...about whether these tools can work together, whether they do 12:56:09 ...of tools here, build a list, ask whether this works with that, and with other tools from elsewhere 12:56:17 ....at use cases; things we need but don't have 12:56:37 ...other folks views? 12:58:42 danbri talks about swad-europe a little 12:58:54 ...we have some time to carry this on 12:59:04 ...peiople could join the list to discuss things further 12:59:14 ...write upcommunity efforts, for example 12:59:27 wendy asks about the list 12:59:32 ...and the members 12:59:40 old slides: http://www.w3.org/2001/Talks/www10-Annotea-paper/Overview.html, KCAP: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2001/1021-KCAP/Overview.html, www2002: http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0511-annotea/Overview.html 13:00:08 ...5 partners: ilrt finance, project m,angement; W3C overall direction 13:00:28 ...hplabs, rutherford-appleton labs, Stlio, a little company in bristol 13:00:43 ..georgrphocally focused, dan/chaals honourary frenchies 13:01:04 ...previously e.g. swad-mit, v high-powered programming 13:01:16 marja, try the minutes - chaals just posted them 13:01:35 ...writing up stuff already done 13:02:04 chaals - so practically a report - finding out stuff from this meeting about how to do stuff 13:02:16 wendy - for this report some discussion and usecases 13:02:44 libby would like to do something oractivcal in thos meeting 13:03:10 wendy - relation to earl - similarities 13:04:06 danbri: we have some visaulisation workp[age. we are going to work in public as ffar as possible - working with communites 13:05:16 wendy: what could we practuically do today? 13:05:27 libby: annotate 2 pics from difeent points of view... 13:05:51 wendy is interested in stepping through like a flowchart in svg - would lie to work on something like that 13:06:09 s/lie/like 13:06:54 danbri: we have different flavours of collaboration...being on the sane mailing list might be enough... 13:07:12 ---- 13:09:06 it worked monday 13:10:29 we could call you direct marja 13:10:35 want to give us a number? 13:11:30 --chaals talking about amaya 13:11:36 ok marja, just a sec... 13:12:26 marja, can you hear chaals? 13:12:40 cool :) 13:12:42 working on slides for O'Reilly Open Source Conv --> http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0722-W3COpenSource/ 13:13:09 92479 13:13:15 re five digit passcode - i worked for me 13:13:27 do we want to try the bridge again? 13:13:35 ok 13:13:46 what's the zakim number again 13:14:23 zaim +1 617.761.6200 13:14:38 s/zaim/zakim 13:15:34 annotea: 13:15:53 there's a query protocol, using the RDF query language algae 13:15:53 Zakim has joined #erswad 13:16:13 danbri demos making an annotation in amaya 13:16:28 (the phone has not been a popular option :( 13:17:18 you can create the annotation of partic;lar parts of an image, and then save it locally or remotely 13:17:20