W3C WebOnt Working Group IRC logs for 2002-01-15
These are the automatically generated logs from the W3C WebOnt Working
Group IRC chat
Dave Beckett
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2002-01-15
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- Topic now WebOnt ftf, NJ
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf1.html
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- Topic now WebOnt ftf, NJ
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf1.html
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- Topic now WebOnt ftf, NJ
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf1.html
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- [14:09:07] DanC
- ===== day 2 gets started
- [14:09:13] DanC
- ... ideas on next ftf
- [14:09:25] DanC
- one option: Eu late april.
- [14:09:31] DanC
- another option: Hawaii in May
- [14:10:23] DanC
- Feb tech plenary is too soon for a ftf WG meeting, but you're
welcome to come to the RDF/Semantic Web IG meeting there.
- [14:11:20] nmg
- EU meeting would be colocated with KR2002 -
http://www.kr.org/kr/kr02/
- [14:12:06] nmg
- (which itself is colocated with DL2002 -
http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/dl2002/)
- [14:13:54] jdale
- Fujitsu could still offer to host it in northern
california
- [14:15:13] nmg
- Mike Dean's slides:
- [14:15:15] nmg
- http://www.daml.org/2002/01/experiences/
- [14:17:05] DanC
- A:why does reflexe cause complexity problem?
- [14:17:12] DanC
- er.. Q: why...
- [14:17:25] DanC
- A: because it breaks the tree... [?]
- [14:20:20] DanC
- ===== DAML Experience reports, Mike Dean
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- Mike Dean presents from "DAML+OIL Issues and Experiences"
http://www.daml.org/2002/01/experiences/
- [14:22:33] DanC
- Q: "frame orientation"... what does that mean?
- [14:23:04] DanC
- A:chunking is part of it... in DAML+OIL, there's no way to say
"this chunk is my definition of this class"
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- A:also, unnamed classes and class expressions are a different
way of thinking
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- [14:24:33] DanC
- A:to some extent, we've built tools that make DAML+OIL look
like a frame system, but there are some language issues that break
the illusion
- [14:28:05] DanC
- Q:don't frame systems usually include defaults and such
non-monotonic stuff?
- [14:29:19] DanC
- A:so let's apply the 80/20 rule: take the stuff from frame
systems that's really useful and easy...
- [14:31:16] DanC
- DebM: I've done DL research for a long time and I now have all
these frame editors... I just see them as interfaces to DL systems
where it's inconvenient to make defined classes.
- [14:31:41] DanC
- [...scribe isn't sure where we're headed and what to
capture...]
- [14:35:10] DanC
- [a few]: It seems like there should be more stuff in the
language to capture higher-level idioms corresponding to frames
etc.
- [14:37:58] DanC
- [... UML syntax/idioms are also part of the discussion...]
- [14:42:15] DanC
- Chair: there are at least two different user communities, and
we should be aware of the needs (including documentation, ...) of
the various communities
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- [14:42:38] DeborahMcGuinness
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- [14:43:12] DanC
- IanH: I heard a consensus around extra-logical features to
support grouping of properties with classes and such.
- [14:43:36] DeborahMcGuinness
- i just got on sorry - one note for the scribe is to do meta
tagging for properties associated with term definitions
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- [14:46:30] DanC
- folks are welcome to discuss in a break, send proposals,
etc.
- [14:53:17] DanC
- JimH: let's be very careful about saying "our language can
express that; we don't need to add it"... even though
UnambiguousProperty is expressible in terms of cardinality
constraints, that wouldn't make UnambiguousProperty visible to
users
- [14:58:59] DanC
- as MikeD gets to rules...
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- Chair clarifies our charter w.r.t. rules: it's recognized that
rules are needed in the Semantic Web, but ontologies are
speparable, and there's more consensus on the technical design at
the ontology level
- [15:01:29] DanC
- there are other fora (www-rdf-rules, RDF IG ftf in Feb, ...) to
discuss rules.
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- logger, pointer?
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- logger_2, pointer?
- [15:36:05] jah-wowg
- See
http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2002-01-15#T15-36-05
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- [18:12:05] DanC
- ===== reconvene after lunch
- [18:12:22] DanC
- new agenda (ftf-2002/slide1-2.html on hendler's machine)
- [18:12:45] DanC
- hot topics: Decidability, RDF compatibility [aka layering]
- [18:15:29] DanC
- === next meeting
- [18:15:40] DanC
- option: 25/26 Mar, Europe
- [18:15:49] DanC
- option: 1-2 April US East
- [18:15:57] DanC
- option: 8-9 April. US East
- [18:16:39] DanC
- most likely seems to be 25/26 Mar in Amsterdam
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- [18:17:51] DanC
- ===== Requirements editors
- [18:17:58] DanC
- Hefflin have volunteered to co-edit
- [18:18:07] DanC
- Jonathan and Rafael volunteer too.
- [18:18:59] DanC
- [JimH starts editing REQUIREMENTS list in a text editor]
- [18:19:17] DanC
- -- Collection management
- [18:19:57] DanC
- archtypical use cases: (a) collection of web pages in a web
site. (b) homogeneous collection: art, etc. (c) documents around a
physical artifact; e.g. an engineering design for [an
aircraft?]
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- [18:23:17] DanC
- not a requirement: more complex constraints than range
constraints on datatypes
- [18:25:15] DanC
- [4 requirements on the board]
- [18:25:59] DanC
- MikeD on "content interoperability"
- [18:26:12] DanC
- top use cases: travel planning/[agency?]
- [18:26:17] DanC
- ^1
- [18:26:21] DanC
- 2. ontoweb portal
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- [18:31:59] DanC
- -- Decker, web services
- [18:32:13] DanC
- use case: ubiquitous computing: small devices, mutual
authentication, ...
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- [19:36:33] DanC
- ACTION Hefflin, Nick G., Rafael V.: to draft a requirements
document by end of jan.
- [19:36:37] DanC
- oops...
- [19:36:47] DanC
- ACTION Hefflin, Jonathan D., Rafael V.: to draft a requirements
document by end of jan.
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- [19:40:35] DanC
- NOTE: official publication rules:
http://www.w3.org/Guide/pubrules
- [19:41:48] DanC
- ACTION JimH: send table of requirements from discussion before
that break
- [19:41:59] DanC
- [resume from break]
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- finin will scribe
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- discussion on decidability as a requirement
- [19:47:57] TimFinin
- how important is it?
- [19:49:08] TimFinin
- what's the cost of decidabiltyu? danc: costs include ruling
some features in and some features out
- [19:49:57] TimFinin
- fvh: what are the reasoning tasks that ppl want to do? it is
for thoise tasks that we have to ask about decidability
- [19:50:29] TimFinin
- jimh: for daml+oil, decidability was a critereon when
evaluating a proposed feature.
- [19:50:52] TimFinin
- jimh: we are now addressing a large community.
- [19:51:25] TimFinin
- jimh: some subcommunities need a richer representation and
don't need some reasoning features, like subsumption
- [19:52:10] TimFinin
- danc: can anyone speak to the reasoning tasks that have to be
decidable?
- [19:54:48] TimFinin
- jimh and ih: were really talking about computability
- [19:55:57] TimFinin
- ih: subsumption checking is needed by ppl who are building
large ontologies with multiple authors.
- [19:56:48] TimFinin
- lh: for example, i'm working with users who are trying to build
ontologies for genomics
- [19:57:09] TimFinin
- danh: is it unaceptable if the reasoning is incomplete?
- [19:57:14] TimFinin
- ih: it depends
- [19:58:20] TimFinin
- jeramy: suggests that we might have decisbility as a
requirement for OWL 1.0. we can relax it later.
- [19:59:11] TimFinin
- gus: I have one use case involving matching descriptions of
stolen art objects
- [19:59:37] TimFinin
- the use case could go either way -- using subsumption or
something less.
- [20:02:05] TimFinin
- jimh: the NCI uses two tools to build ontologies -- a DL like
system and a more proceedural system. they seem to need both.
- [20:04:32] TimFinin
- tf: worse is better
- [20:05:08] TimFinin
- fvh: you can still write useful tools to do things even if the
language is undecidable.
- [20:05:50] TimFinin
- jimh: I'm hearing efficiency as a goal, but not a strict
reaquirement.
- [20:07:23] TimFinin
- pfps: those of us who have to build a reasoner to handle the
language know how to do some things but not others.
- [20:09:06] TimFinin
- pfps: two examples of communities who want subsumption: (1)
medical informatics people with lots of data (2) trael
services.
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- [20:15:56] DanC
- tim finin is now using danc's machinr
- [20:16:53] DanC
- pfps: we need an entailment reasoner.
- [20:17:58] DanC
- jimh is looking for the right descriptive term for the reasoner
we want.
- [20:18:09] DanC
- ih suggests "class consistancy reasoner"
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- [20:19:17] DanC
- ian and frank are delegated the task to come up with the
descriptive adj for the reasoner.
- [20:19:44] DanC
- the next period will cover the discussion of rdf
compatibility.
- [20:20:27] DanC
- jimh: pfps described five attributes (babies) all of which
together cause problems. which to throw out?
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- [20:23:28] DanC
- reconstucting peter's presentation from yesterday, there are
three possibilities.
- [20:23:49] DanC
- (1) a syntactic embedding of owl into rdfs
- [20:24:48] DanC
- (2) owl has syntactic features that go beyond rdfs
- [20:28:25] DanC
- (3) owl is syntactically like rdfs but has different
semantics
- [20:35:59] DanC
- a fourth possibility is peter's owl', in which owl' is a
semantic restriction of a syntactic restriction of rdfs
- [20:36:02] DanC
- danc does a staw poll on the three suggestions.
- [20:36:12] DanC
- option (1) had eight people who liked it and 1 who found it
unattractive
- [20:36:14] DanC
- (2) had two who liked it and 2 who disliked it
- [20:36:22] DanC
- (3) had one who liked it and 7 who disliked it.
- [20:43:04] DanC
- discussion of the tbl layer cake. danc says that tbl's vision
is for option (3).
- [20:43:05] ora
- I am wondering whether DAML+OIL is considered like option #2
even though the syntactic incompatibilities are within the standard
RDF syntax extension framework
- [20:43:16] DanC
- jimh: were running out of time and patience.
- [20:47:53] DanC
- the babies: meta-modelling; negation; entailment; extra
syntax
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- [20:56:49] DanC
- [20:58:07] DanC
- now lets discuss the use cases that make each of the
possibilities bad
- [20:59:53] DanC
- for (1) owl and rdfs produce overlaping sents of sentences.
this means that we may need to know whether a document
- [21:00:05] DanC
- was intended to be processed via owl or rdfs.
- [21:02:33] DanC
- how will we go forward on this issue?
- [21:03:30] DanC
- it's proposed that several people go off and write a document
describing the options, what the problems are and what's needed to
fix the problems.
- [21:04:56] DanC
- pfps and dieter are likely candidates
- [21:07:46] DanC
- mike smith has been volunteered and his weak objections easily
overcome by collective pressure.
- [21:08:18] DanC
- ACTION PeterPS, Dieter, Mike Smith: write up layering
issues
- [21:08:51] DanC
- by end of JAn
- [21:09:23] DanC
- ziv helmond has been added to the group.
- [21:11:32] DanC
- jimh is concerned that we don't have a process in place for
beginning to write down the specification
- [21:12:39] DanC
- danc suggests starting ith a tutorial type document. a
cookbook. written in prose with lots of examples.
- [21:15:59] DanC
- jimh suggests we look at how daml+oil reflects the requirements
that we've generated in this f2f meeting
- [21:16:53] DanC
- danc is willing to try to do this.
- [21:17:17] DanC
- jimh believes that Ian should be in the loop on this and ian
concures.
- [21:19:31] DanC
- ACTION: danc Ian and mike Smith will work on a document which
evaluates how well daml+oil meets the owl requirements as
identified at this f2f meeting
- [21:22:05] DanC
- jimh thinks we may be about done.
- [21:23:04] DanC
- jimh three action items: (1) requirements document (2) owl
write up on layering issues and (3) mapping of requirments to
daml+oil.
- [21:23:37] DanC
- immediate action item: plan meetings for next year?
- [21:23:54] DanC
- ACTION deadline for document #3 is January 31, 2002.
- [21:28:51] DanC
- we're looking at the calendar for 2002 and talking about when
to have upcoming meetings.
- [21:29:09] DanC
- we're anticipating having a meeting every three months or
so.
- [21:40:57] DanC
- some suggestions for f2f meetings: #2 on March 25-26, #3 just
before iswc june 6-7
- [21:42:07] DanC
- meeting 33 might bein late sept or early october.
- [21:44:01] DanC
- meetings #2 and #3 look like europe (amsterdam for 2 and
sardinia for 3) so meeting four might be in the US in october
- [21:50:52] DanC
- Now it's suggested that we hold f2f #2 april 8-9 in the us east
coast in conjunction with the semantic web related meeting in
Atlanta
- [21:51:32] DanC
- ACTION JimH: send ftf schedule proposal
- [21:52:23] DanC
- moved to ajourn. seconded.
- [21:52:37] DanC
- eof
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Provided by Dave
Beckett, Institute for
Learning and Research Technology, University of Bristol