Minutes of XML Protocol Telcon, 2 October 2002

Based on IRC Log.

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1. Roll call.

Present 22/17
AT&T Mark Jones
Ericsson Nilo Mitra
IBM John Ibbotson
IBM David Fallside
IBM Noah Mendelsohn
Intel Highland Mary Mountain
IONA Technologies Oisin Hurley
Macromedia Glen Daniels
Microsoft Corporation Henrik Nielsen
Microsoft Corporation Martin Gudgin
Netscape Ray Whitmer
Oracle Anish Karmarkar
Progress Software Colleen Evans
Rogue Wave Murali Janakiraman
SeeBeyond Pete Wenzel
Software AG Michael Champion
Sun Microsystems Marc Hadley
Tibco Don Mullen
W3C Yves Lafon
W3C Carine Bournez
WebMethods Camilo Arbelaez
WebMethods Asir Vedamuthu

Excused
AT&T Michah Lerner
Intel Brad Lund
IONA Technologies Eric Newcomer
Netscape Vidur Apparao
Oracle Jeff Mischkinsky
Rogue Wave Patrick Thompson
Software AG Dietmar Gaertner
Tibco Amy Lewis

Regrets
BEA Systems David Orchard
Canon Jean-Jacques Moreau
DaimlerChrysler R. & Tech Mario Jeckle
Matsushita Electric Ryuji Inoue
Mitre Paul Denning
SAP AG Volker Wiechers
SAP AG Gerd Hoelzing
Systinet (IDOOX) Jacek Kopecky
Unisys Lynne Thompson

Absent
Canon Herve Ruellan
DaimlerChrysler R. & Tech Andreas Riegg
Fujitsu Limited Kazunori Iwasa
Fujitsu Limited Masahiko Narita
Martsoft Jin Yu
Mitre Marwan Sabbouh
Systinet (IDOOX) Miroslav Simek
Unisys Nick Smilonich

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2. Agenda review, and AOB (12.05 + 5)

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3. Approval of 25 Sept telcon minutes

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http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/Admin/#schedule

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No objections to approving minutes.

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MINUTES APPROVED

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4. Review action items

[Yves]

Asir: PENDING

[Yves]

Editors: DONE

[Yves]

DavidF: Pending

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David checking with implementors, including ones no longer on XMLP

[Yves]

DavidF: Pending

[Yves]

Editors: DONE

[Yves]

DavidF: DONE

[Yves]

Editors: PENDING

[Yves]

Jacek: draft sent, so PENDING

[marc]

URI decision was on 11th Sept con-call

[Yves]

Henrik: DONE

[GlenD]

Was there an email thread about that as well?

[GlenD]

URI-izing?

[Gudge]

On URI-izing?

[Gudge]

250 is not URI-izing

[Yves]

Editors: DONE

[GlenD]

QNames are very easy to represent in XML (for instance in WSDL). URI's not so much.

[GlenD]

"Make state, role, and failure properties URIs"

[marc]

i think the TAG finding on URIs vs QNames was the deciding factor

[Yves]

Jacek: DONE

[Yves]

DavidF: DONE

[GlenD]

marc: Have a URL for that?

[Gudge]

I thought the TAG said QNames were fine?

[Yves]

Jacek: DONE

[Yves]

Editors: DONE

[GlenD]

Do they think XML is a bad idea too? :)

[Yves]

DonM: DONE

[Yves]

Jacek: DONE

[marc]

i don;t have a link handy

[Yves]

Editors: Pending

[GlenD]

OK, thanks, though. I'll research it.

[Yves]

Editors: DONE

[Yves]

Henrik: DONE

[Yves]

Noah: DONE

[Yves]

Carine: PENDING

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5. Status reports (12.25 + 15)

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Primer: nothing to report

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Spec : nothing to report

[Noah]

Noah also fulfilled another action assigned on last week's call, but not apparently captured as an action, which was to propose resolution to concerns about issue 231. DF reports it's on the agenda for today.

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Attachment feature : no feedback as yet, WSD group planning on giving feedback, deadline 19th

[Gudge]

The deadline for review is the date on or before which review comments must arrive ;-)

-- many participants bumped from phone bridge

[DavidF]

looks like we lost the entire bridge!!

[marc]

was it something we said

[asir]

Possibly

[Henrik]

not all

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[Horrible screeching feedback interrupts call]

[asir]

I re-dialed and it is not letting me thru

[marc]

did anyone else get the french hold music ?

[DavidF]

asir - try again it sometimes cannot deal w/ lots of simult redials

[asir]

I got in

[DavidF]

non!

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-- Implementation tracking

[Yves]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xmlp-comments/2002Oct/0002.html

[Yves]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xmlp-comments/2002Sep/0081.html

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(Henrik notes two xmlp-comments mails re: LC)

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David indicates we need to update the Test Collection doc to reflect LC issue decisions

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Need to discuss interop requirements and testing techniques at some point.

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-- Media type draft, IANA application: need to revisit as we approach resolution of last last-call issues

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-- Planning Oct f2f [http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/2/09/F2Fmeeting.html]

[marc]

gudge: no, they weren't, at least one of them wasa QName

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13 registered so far

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deadline is 18 Oct
-- Chair encourages people to register asap because meeting room has limited capacity.

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looking at the meeting webpage only 6 members have registered

[Gudge]

marc: Ahh, in 7.5 a lot of the failureReason were QNames

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6. LC Issues [http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/xmlp-lc-issues] (12.40 + 80)

[Gudge]

marc: despite the fact that the table 2 defines failureReason as a URI

[Yves]

MarkB: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xmlp-comments/2002Sep/0081.html

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df: Are we willing to accept MarkB's late request as an issue?

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NO DISSENT. df: we will create a new issue for Mark's comment
-- df: with regard the other late LC comment http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xmlp-comments/2002Oct/0002.html, members have not had time to review it and so somone will evaluet it to detemrine whether to accept it as an issue.

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-- Discussion of pushback to any issues we have closed

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no pushback so far

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-- 338, state machine description questions

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Asir drafted a response

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Response is currently in progress, pending clarification question.

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Q: If the transition between two states is unconditional, why bother having two states?

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We decided at the f2f to maintain status quo.

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Marc: transition is conditional on having a message to send....

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Asir : INIT & REQUESTING are distinct states in the HTTP binding. Transition is "start sending".

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Asir : if condition is real, let's specify it

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[mumblings of agreement]

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"unconditional" -> "transmission of request message initiated"

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(suggested wording from DavidF)

[marc]

gudge: darn, looks like I missed all those fail:xxxx, although it looks like I did add the <attval> markup :-(

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Asir : MEP state machine doesn't define states fully, but the binding version does.

[Noah]

+1, self descriptive

[Yves]

+1

[Noah]

zakim would be clueless about such matters

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[general feeling that states were self-descriptive enough at present]

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df: Any objection to the change above? (i.e. "unconditional" -> "transmission of request message initiated")

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NO OBJECTIONS

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[discussion of faults while streaming]

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Marc leaps in to summarize : text is good as it stands. You can just stop sending if you run into problems without having to generate faults.

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If receiving, you can just stop but can't generate a fault (soap processing never started)

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df: there is no sentiment for closing the issue with any action other than replacing "unconditional" as above.
-- ISSUE 338 CLOSED

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-- 302, data model edges orignating and not terminating

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[summary : "Encyclopedia Brown and the Text That Wasn't There"]

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df: Are there any objections to closing this issue with the text currently in the editor's copy?

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NO OBJECTIONS

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ISSUE 302 CLOSED

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-- 231, what is the difference between a struct and an array in the edge case?

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http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2002Sep/0192.html

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[scribe gets booted off IRC, reconnects]

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Ray : this is non-normative, and might seem to contradict the normative stuff. Should we clarify?

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Gudge agrees there is some confusion.

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Noah : problem is dissonance between "defaulting" values and the fact that normatively we don't describe/allow defaulting...

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Noah : isn't this sort of the same as with xsi:type?

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[Discussion of schema rules vs. SOAP rules, and how information gets discovered from each]

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df: let's push this towards conclusion via email. Please propose text changes if you have issues with Noah's text

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df: Will revisit next week

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df: we will go ahead and choose the attribute's name

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POLL: Everyone gets one vote (per aganda).

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class : 1

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content : 0

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content : 1

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form : 2

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format : 0

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kind : 0

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node : 0

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nodeType : 7

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type : 0

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valueFormat : 0

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valueType : 0

[asir]

it is nodeType

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df: "nodeType" will be the name of the attribute

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-- 356, Allow unqualified elements as children of Body

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http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2002Sep/0128.html
-- df: any objection to closing issue 356 by saying child elems SHOULD be namespace qualified, and using Noah's text as modified by Gudge's proposal

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NO OBECTIONS

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ISSUE 356 CLOSED

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-- 358, length of URIs

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Proposal to close as dup of 356

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df: any objections to closing 358 as a duplicate of 336?

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NO OBJECTIONS

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ISSUE 358 CLOSED

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-- 370, no definition of SOAP Processor

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Proposal to close this issue by replacing all instances of "SOAP processor"

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with "SOAP node"

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df: are there any objections to closing 370 with this proposal?

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NO OBJECTIONS : ISSUE 370 CLOSED

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-- 300, How is version transition handled in the HTTP binding?

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Marc: SOAP 1.2 HTTP binding has to be tweaked if it's to accept SOAP 1.1

[Noah]

Yes, I agree with what Glen's saying.

[marc]

our binding wouldn't recognise it as a SOAP message

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MarkJ : The upgrade stuff talks about behavior of a SOAP 1.2 node when it receives a SOAP 1.1 message.
-- further discussion, proposal to be sent in email

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-- 301, Missing universal transport binding

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df: are there any objections to closing this issue by saying it is out of scope?

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NO OBJECTIONS. ISSUE 301 CLOSED

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-- 326, NS qualify all attributes

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PROPOSAL : make id and ref part of the SOAP-ENC namespace

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df: are there any objections to namespace qualifying these attributes?

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NO OBJECTIONS. ISSUE 326 CLOSED.

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-- 360, modularize Part 2

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Split part 2 into multiple specs?

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PROPOSAL : Close since it has been dealt with before

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df: are there any objections to closing this issue as a duplicate of 198?

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NO OBJECTIONS. ISSUE 360 CLOSED

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MEETING ADJOURNED

:44 [RRSAgent]

I see 14 open action items:

:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Editors to resolve and close issue 250 and respond to reagle@w3.org [2]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T18-19-58

:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Issues list maintainer to creat a new issue for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xmlp-comments/2002Sep/0081.html [3]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T18-44-28

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ACTION: Gudge to evaluate http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xmlp-comments/2002Oct/0002.html and inform WG whether a new issue should be generated [4]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T18-45-41

:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Gudge to send resolution text for Issue 302 to xmlp-comments and commentator [5]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T19-10-54

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ACTION: Noah to send resolution text for Issue 353 to xmlp-comments and commentator [6]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T19-11-09

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ACTION: Group to take 231 proposal to e-mail. Gudge and Ray to propose modifications to Noah's text [7]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T19-30-52

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ACTION: Henrik to send closing text for issue 356 to xmlp-comments and commentator [8]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T19-38-22

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ACTION: Don Mullen to send closing text for issue 358 to xmlp-comments and commentator [9]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T19-40-32

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ACTION: Don Mullen to send closing text for issue 370 to xmlp-comments and commentator [10]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T19-40-53

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ACTION: GlenD to make a proposal for clarifying Part 1 appendix A ( regarding Issue 300 ) [11]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T19-55-35

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ACTION: Colleen Evans to send closing text for Issue 301 to xmlp-comments and commentator [12]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T19-57-50

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ACTION: Gudge to send closing text for issue 326 to xmlp-comments and commentator [13]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T20-00-17

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ACTION: Collen to send closing text for issue 360 to xmlp-comments and commentator [14]

:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/10/02-xmlprotocol-irc#T20-02-10