IRC log, #spec-prod, Aug 15 2000

13:28 logger JOIN
13:29 hugo JOIN
13:30 hugo hi
13:30 maxf hi hugo
13:30   hugo looks for the phone number
13:30 Ian PART Ian
13:30 SusanL hmm, no answer at longfellow
13:30 Ian JOIN
13:30 janet busy signal
13:31 janet I hope we don't have a replay of yesterday's phone service at the AB
13:31   hugo finds the phone number
13:31 hugo TOPIC: Phone number: +1-617-252-1038
13:31 janet +1 617 252 1038
13:31 Ian TOPIC: Spec production tools meeting (Phone number: +1-617-252-1038)
13:32 janet ringing!
13:32 SusanL connection!
13:33 Ian +Patrick Ion, Paul Grosso, Janet
13:33 maxf +max
13:33 Ian +Ian, Norm Walsh, Max Froumentin, Hugo Haas, Philippe Le Hegaret, Eve Maler
13:34 Ian +Susan Lesch
13:35 Ian --------------
13:35 Ian Agenda requests?
13:36 Ian PG: If we're publishing xml in html, what's the policy for getting files in the right place, ensuring content negotiation works, etc.
13:36 Ian ...this came up in publishing XML 1.2 second edition.
13:36 Ian (some naming issues, etc.)
13:37 Ian HH: In addition to naming convention, we wanted to so something cleaner, didn't know how to do with apach.
13:37 Ian apache.
13:37 Ian PG: We should share what we know.
13:37 Ian EM: Yes, what are the steps to publish something in XML.
13:38 Ian PI: Math WG has ultimately some xml sources and xsl conversion to html which we offer to publication.
13:38 Ian PG: There are two subcases:
13:38 Ian a) Using XML source to generate HTML and publish the HTML results.
13:38 Ian b) Publishing XML.
13:38 Ian Issue: Default style sheet for XMLSpec DTD.
13:38 Ian +Karl Best
13:39 Ian ---------------
13:39 Ian Top needs:
13:40 Ian -------------
13:40 Ian IJ: What's the hardest thing to do today in getting a doc to the TR page?
13:40 Ian EM: I maintain the XMLSpec DTD and edit a couple of specs.
13:41 Ian ...authoring XMLSpec is pretty trivial since I use Epic to edit. It's also easy to generate html from xml with xslt. WHat's hard: the style sheet at the end works with the document and pubrules requirements.
13:41 Ian SO
13:41 Ian a) Blessed TR style sheet
13:41 Ian b) Chain validation tools.
13:43 Ian IJ: Announcement of comma tools.
13:43 Ian HH: ,validate and ,checklink and ,rchecklink and ,cssvalidate
13:43 Ian IJ: Can we have a comma tool that does all of those?
13:44 Ian HH: Not sure.
13:44 Ian PL: DOM WG using XML source and its own set of tools to generate the HTML.
13:45 Ian ...we use tcl scripts based on "cost" for DOM Level 1. Now we are using DOM scripts (in Java).
13:45 Ian ...we use XMLSpec DTD but it doesn't meet all of our needs.
13:45 Ian ...we are generating binding information in scripts.
13:46 Ian ...we will need in the future to extend the XMLSpec DTD to include information in the source, and not in scripts.
13:46 Ian ...I think that this is the same for everyone for something like a copyright (need to include in sources, not produce by script).
13:47 Ian IJ: Issue: extensibility of DTD and processing.
13:47 Ian PLH: I'd prefer not to have extensibility, but would like a formal process for getting something in the DTD.
13:47 Ian ...that way you can use one set of tools to generate everyone's documents.
13:48 Ian +Arnaud
13:48 Ian PI: You've worked with David Carlisle to extend the DTD for MathML. I suspect that there are special requirements for the Math spec.
13:48 Ian EM: I think that in general people will want to extend the DTD for their specific needs.
13:49 Ian IJ: Issue: core DTD?
13:49 Ian EM: Some of the DOM IDL stuff is specific enough that it seems like it should be part of the DOM DTD.
13:49 Ian PLH: But interfaces are created by other WGs.
13:49 Ian EM: Formal revision process + extensibility seem necessary.
13:50 Ian NW: Reasonable way forward is to approach this as a parallel standardization: have a core DTD + style sheet.
13:50 Ian ..when you want to propose an extension, some group reviews the proposal and helps them extend it for their needs.
13:51 Ian IJ: How to decentralize this?
13:51 Ian ...schemas?
13:52 Ian PG: I'd rather people avoid extending where possible. If they're using XML as a database (case a above), that's one thing. But if they're using XML to publish directly, then avoid extensions.
13:52 Ian EM: Right now there are strict rules about what can get published (
13:53 Ian ...using a single XML DTD could be seen in service of meeting those draconian rules.
13:53 Philippe JOIN
13:53 Ian ..late binding of pubrules vs. early bindings.
13:54 Ian -------------
13:54 Ian EM: Karl Best invited for possible coordination and hearing needs from other consumers.
13:55 Ian ...might also be useful for an IETF person to attend, contribute.
13:55 Ian JD: The IETF process has tight constraints.
13:56 Ian EM: Refer to RFC 2629
13:57 Ian ...don't want to lump in everyone's needs into one DTD, but coordination, possibly on a core, would be useful.
13:57 Ian ---
13:58 Ian Outputs and Printing?
13:58 Ian EM: I've only been publishing in XML and HTML. PDF would be nice.
13:58 Ian NW: W3C needs to get tools to do XMLSpec to PDF.
13:58 Ian MF: I'm currently working on adapting XMLspec style sheet to write formatting objects.
13:58 Ian ...But XSLT-to-FOP converters not perfect yet.
13:59 Ian NW: Bottleneck today is FO-to-PDF.
13:59 Ian PI: The MathML spec is greater than 10 pages....(about 500).
13:59 Ian also includes MathML. It includes TeX code to provide printed examples.
14:00 Ian ...xslt style sheets produce TeX code and the whole thing is sent through PDFTeX.
14:00 Ian ...this is not the obvious paradigm for everyone.
14:01 Ian IJ: We use html2ps to get ps, ps2pdf.
14:02 Ian EM: Don't forget chunked HTMl output v. single file.
14:02 Ian IJ: And zip/gzipped tar.
14:02 Ian PLH: For DOM, we generate several files (around 50).
14:04 Ian NW: One answer for offline reading: provide both versions on the Web (one great big huge file and just chapter three).
14:04 Ian PLH: Regarding the DOM: I generate the spec in 7 files, and use a script to concat the files into one. Using Netscape, I generate a text version.
14:05 Ian (And I generate PDF and PS from the single HTML file).
14:05 Ian Tools:
14:05 Ian 1) TeX
14:05 Ian 2) Comma tools
14:05 Ian 3) Ad hoc perl scripts.
14:06 Ian 4) MF: I've modified the XMLSpec style sheet to make it generate several files.
14:06 Ian 5) PG: I use ArborText / Epic editor. Does publishing, generates PS.
14:07 Ian (can be distilled into PDF).
14:07 Ian ALH: The XML Project has a tool called FOP that generates PDF based on XSL FO. We use it for the XML apache project. We have an intern working on generating a book. Very cool.
14:08 Ian ...If we have a tool that generates PDF, then PS is a given.
14:09 Ian NW: Is that work in the FOP CVS repository.
14:09 Ian ALH: Yes.
14:09 Ian NW: If the FOP converter is coming along, the PS issue becomes irrelevant.
14:10 Ian NW: PassiveTeX, FOP-XSLT, Epic give you FO to PDF.
14:11 Ian MF: I'm using FOP. The problem I have is the 10-page limit.
14:11 Ian NW: I haven't had this problem.
14:11 Ian MF: Java runs out of memory for more than 10 pages.
14:11 Ian ------------------
14:12 Ian XMLSpec to XHTML conversion.
14:12 Ian XHTML to XMLSpec.
14:12 Ian XMLSpec to PDF (through FOs).
14:12 Ian EM: One-time conversion from XHTML to XMLSpec for those who want to use XMLSpec regularly.
14:13 Ian ...your conversion strategy would differ depending on what your goal is (one time v. every time).
14:14 Ian close to automatic do you want to be?
14:14 Ian advice is to optimize for one-time conversion.
14:14 Ian IJ: How many people here need to continue to author in HTML?
14:14 Ian (no answers) :-)
14:14 Ian JD: We do have other feedback from other document editors about the difficulty finding HTML tools.
14:15 Ian PI: Great chunks of the MathML specs are being edited in XML.
14:15 Ian +Eduardo Gutentag.
14:15 Ian EM: Mention "xed" : syntax-directed XML editor (not necessarily validator).
14:16 Ian ...if people are complaining about html tools, moving to XML might be easier.
14:16 Ian NW: I'll make available xed port for Linux soon.
14:16 Ian EG: I want a visual xsl editor.
14:17 Ian Available xslt processors?
14:17 Ian EM: xt will not be maintained.
14:17 Ian EG: xalan (
14:17 Ian NW: There are a few dozen tools.
14:17 Ian EG: Oracle one.
14:18 Philippe Ian:
14:18 Ian IJ: Are these available from xsl home page?
14:18 Ian EG: No.
14:18 Ian EM: Refer Dave Pawson home page.
14:18 Ian -----------
14:18 Ian EM: My biggest concern is to come up with a canonical style sheet.
14:19 Ian (for XMLspec direct publication).
14:19 Ian NW: Along those lines, we have 3-4 XMLSpec style sheet developments in paralle.
14:19 Ian ...I think that we should get these into CVS and harmonize efforts.
14:20 Ian EM: There are cvs repositories for style sheet and xmlspec.
14:20 Ian /XML/1998/06 you will find everything.
14:22 Ian IJ: Editors' page.
14:22 Ian (within the Guide)
14:22 Ian EM: Yes, collect wisdom there.
14:22 Ian IJ: comma tools.
14:22 Ian Action IJ: I would accept an action to get a page in order.
14:23 Philippe DOM:
14:23 Ian -------
14:23 Ian Janet: I can talk to w3m about getting resources for tracking publication tasks.
14:24 Ian Action Janet: Talk to w3m.
14:24 norm JOIN
14:24   Ian notes /Guide/Reports as place for editors' knowledge.
14:24 norm Hi folks. (I can never tell which groups use IRC :-)
14:24 Ian Hi Norm!
14:24 janet Welcome, Norm
14:25 janet
14:25 hugo no:
14:26 janet thanks for the correction, hugo
14:26 norm Hugo, I get 404 for that URL
14:26 norm nevermind
14:26 Ian -----------------
14:27 Ian Action EM: Upgrade the XMLspec DTD in light of other flavors out there.
14:27 Ian --------
14:27 Ian IJ: Problem that Guide/Reports is not public.
14:28 Ian IJ: Any objections to making this info public?
14:28 Ian Unanimous: Public is better.
14:28 Ian -------
14:28 Ian Action everyone: send NW their style sheets and he will create a canonical version.
14:29 Ian ..the XMLSpec style sheet for producing html and FO's.
14:29 Ian Action NW: Munge all the flavors and put a single one into CVS.
14:29 Ian Action HH: Talk to NW about using
14:29 Ian -------
14:30 Ian Action EM and IJ: Talk about getting w3c editors to join spec prod (larger discussion).
14:30 Ian ----------
14:30 Ian Do people want to meet again?
14:31 Ian (no enthusiastic desire; will carry out discussion on the list).
14:31 Ian ----------
14:32 Ian Discussion of "W3C plenary" for cross-pollination.
14:34 Ian Deadline for action items: 4 weeks from today.
14:35 Ian Adjourned.
14:35 SusanL PART SusanL
14:35 hugo PART hugo
14:40 maxf PART maxf
14:40 Philippe PART Philippe

Gerald Oskoboiny
$Date: 2000/08/15 22:53:30 $