| 13:28 | logger | JOIN |
| 13:29 | hugo | JOIN |
| 13:30 | hugo | hi |
| 13:30 | maxf | hi hugo |
| 13:30 | hugo looks for the phone number | |
| 13:30 | Ian | PART Ian |
| 13:30 | SusanL | hmm, no answer at longfellow |
| 13:30 | Ian | JOIN |
| 13:30 | janet | busy signal |
| 13:31 | janet | I hope we don't have a replay of yesterday's phone service at the AB |
| 13:31 | hugo finds the phone number | |
| 13:31 | hugo | TOPIC: Phone number: +1-617-252-1038 |
| 13:31 | janet | +1 617 252 1038 |
| 13:31 | Ian | TOPIC: Spec production tools meeting (Phone number: +1-617-252-1038) |
| 13:32 | janet | ringing! |
| 13:32 | SusanL | connection! |
| 13:33 | Ian | +Patrick Ion, Paul Grosso, Janet |
| 13:33 | maxf | +max |
| 13:33 | Ian | +Ian, Norm Walsh, Max Froumentin, Hugo Haas, Philippe Le Hegaret, Eve Maler |
| 13:34 | Ian | +Susan Lesch |
| 13:35 | Ian | -------------- |
| 13:35 | Ian | Agenda requests? |
| 13:36 | Ian | PG: If we're publishing xml in html, what's the policy for getting files in the right place, ensuring content negotiation works, etc. |
| 13:36 | Ian | ...this came up in publishing XML 1.2 second edition. |
| 13:36 | Ian | (some naming issues, etc.) |
| 13:37 | Ian | HH: In addition to naming convention, we wanted to so something cleaner, didn't know how to do with apach. |
| 13:37 | Ian | apache. |
| 13:37 | Ian | PG: We should share what we know. |
| 13:37 | Ian | EM: Yes, what are the steps to publish something in XML. |
| 13:38 | Ian | PI: Math WG has ultimately some xml sources and xsl conversion to html which we offer to publication. |
| 13:38 | Ian | PG: There are two subcases: |
| 13:38 | Ian | a) Using XML source to generate HTML and publish the HTML results. |
| 13:38 | Ian | b) Publishing XML. |
| 13:38 | Ian | Issue: Default style sheet for XMLSpec DTD. |
| 13:38 | Ian | +Karl Best |
| 13:39 | Ian | --------------- |
| 13:39 | Ian | Top needs: |
| 13:40 | Ian | ------------- |
| 13:40 | Ian | IJ: What's the hardest thing to do today in getting a doc to the TR page? |
| 13:40 | Ian | EM: I maintain the XMLSpec DTD and edit a couple of specs. |
| 13:41 | Ian | ...authoring XMLSpec is pretty trivial since I use Epic to edit. It's also easy to generate html from xml with xslt. WHat's hard: the style sheet at the end works with the document and pubrules requirements. |
| 13:41 | Ian | SO |
| 13:41 | Ian | a) Blessed TR style sheet |
| 13:41 | Ian | b) Chain validation tools. |
| 13:43 | Ian | IJ: Announcement of comma tools. |
| 13:43 | Ian | HH: ,validate and ,checklink and ,rchecklink and ,cssvalidate |
| 13:43 | Ian | IJ: Can we have a comma tool that does all of those? |
| 13:44 | Ian | HH: Not sure. |
| 13:44 | Ian | PL: DOM WG using XML source and its own set of tools to generate the HTML. |
| 13:45 | Ian | ...we use tcl scripts based on "cost" for DOM Level 1. Now we are using DOM scripts (in Java). |
| 13:45 | Ian | ...we use XMLSpec DTD but it doesn't meet all of our needs. |
| 13:45 | Ian | ...we are generating binding information in scripts. |
| 13:46 | Ian | ...we will need in the future to extend the XMLSpec DTD to include information in the source, and not in scripts. |
| 13:46 | Ian | ...I think that this is the same for everyone for something like a copyright (need to include in sources, not produce by script). |
| 13:47 | Ian | IJ: Issue: extensibility of DTD and processing. |
| 13:47 | Ian | PLH: I'd prefer not to have extensibility, but would like a formal process for getting something in the DTD. |
| 13:47 | Ian | ...that way you can use one set of tools to generate everyone's documents. |
| 13:48 | Ian | +Arnaud |
| 13:48 | Ian | PI: You've worked with David Carlisle to extend the DTD for MathML. I suspect that there are special requirements for the Math spec. |
| 13:48 | Ian | EM: I think that in general people will want to extend the DTD for their specific needs. |
| 13:49 | Ian | IJ: Issue: core DTD? |
| 13:49 | Ian | EM: Some of the DOM IDL stuff is specific enough that it seems like it should be part of the DOM DTD. |
| 13:49 | Ian | PLH: But interfaces are created by other WGs. |
| 13:49 | Ian | EM: Formal revision process + extensibility seem necessary. |
| 13:50 | Ian | NW: Reasonable way forward is to approach this as a parallel standardization: have a core DTD + style sheet. |
| 13:50 | Ian | ..when you want to propose an extension, some group reviews the proposal and helps them extend it for their needs. |
| 13:51 | Ian | IJ: How to decentralize this? |
| 13:51 | Ian | ...schemas? |
| 13:52 | Ian | PG: I'd rather people avoid extending where possible. If they're using XML as a database (case a above), that's one thing. But if they're using XML to publish directly, then avoid extensions. |
| 13:52 | Ian | EM: Right now there are strict rules about what can get published (http://www.w3.org/Guide/pubrules). |
| 13:53 | Ian | ...using a single XML DTD could be seen in service of meeting those draconian rules. |
| 13:53 | Philippe | JOIN |
| 13:53 | Ian | ..late binding of pubrules vs. early bindings. |
| 13:54 | Ian | ------------- |
| 13:54 | Ian | EM: Karl Best invited for possible coordination and hearing needs from other consumers. |
| 13:55 | Ian | ...might also be useful for an IETF person to attend, contribute. |
| 13:55 | Ian | JD: The IETF process has tight constraints. |
| 13:56 | Ian | EM: Refer to RFC 2629 |
| 13:57 | Ian | ...don't want to lump in everyone's needs into one DTD, but coordination, possibly on a core, would be useful. |
| 13:57 | Ian | --- |
| 13:58 | Ian | Outputs and Printing? |
| 13:58 | Ian | EM: I've only been publishing in XML and HTML. PDF would be nice. |
| 13:58 | Ian | NW: W3C needs to get tools to do XMLSpec to PDF. |
| 13:58 | Ian | MF: I'm currently working on adapting XMLspec style sheet to write formatting objects. |
| 13:58 | Ian | ...But XSLT-to-FOP converters not perfect yet. |
| 13:59 | Ian | NW: Bottleneck today is FO-to-PDF. |
| 13:59 | Ian | PI: The MathML spec is greater than 10 pages....(about 500). |
| 13:59 | Ian | ...it also includes MathML. It includes TeX code to provide printed examples. |
| 14:00 | Ian | ...xslt style sheets produce TeX code and the whole thing is sent through PDFTeX. |
| 14:00 | Ian | ...this is not the obvious paradigm for everyone. |
| 14:01 | Ian | IJ: We use html2ps to get ps, ps2pdf. |
| 14:02 | Ian | EM: Don't forget chunked HTMl output v. single file. |
| 14:02 | Ian | IJ: And zip/gzipped tar. |
| 14:02 | Ian | PLH: For DOM, we generate several files (around 50). |
| 14:04 | Ian | NW: One answer for offline reading: provide both versions on the Web (one great big huge file and just chapter three). |
| 14:04 | Ian | PLH: Regarding the DOM: I generate the spec in 7 files, and use a script to concat the files into one. Using Netscape, I generate a text version. |
| 14:05 | Ian | (And I generate PDF and PS from the single HTML file). |
| 14:05 | Ian | Tools: |
| 14:05 | Ian | 1) TeX |
| 14:05 | Ian | 2) Comma tools |
| 14:05 | Ian | 3) Ad hoc perl scripts. |
| 14:06 | Ian | 4) MF: I've modified the XMLSpec style sheet to make it generate several files. |
| 14:06 | Ian | 5) PG: I use ArborText / Epic editor. Does publishing, generates PS. |
| 14:07 | Ian | (can be distilled into PDF). |
| 14:07 | Ian | ALH: The XML Project has a tool called FOP that generates PDF based on XSL FO. We use it for the XML apache project. We have an intern working on generating a book. Very cool. |
| 14:08 | Ian | ...If we have a tool that generates PDF, then PS is a given. |
| 14:09 | Ian | NW: Is that work in the FOP CVS repository. |
| 14:09 | Ian | ALH: Yes. |
| 14:09 | Ian | NW: If the FOP converter is coming along, the PS issue becomes irrelevant. |
| 14:10 | Ian | NW: PassiveTeX, FOP-XSLT, Epic give you FO to PDF. |
| 14:11 | Ian | MF: I'm using FOP. The problem I have is the 10-page limit. |
| 14:11 | Ian | NW: I haven't had this problem. |
| 14:11 | Ian | MF: Java runs out of memory for more than 10 pages. |
| 14:11 | Ian | ------------------ |
| 14:12 | Ian | XMLSpec to XHTML conversion. |
| 14:12 | Ian | XHTML to XMLSpec. |
| 14:12 | Ian | XMLSpec to PDF (through FOs). |
| 14:12 | Ian | EM: One-time conversion from XHTML to XMLSpec for those who want to use XMLSpec regularly. |
| 14:13 | Ian | ...your conversion strategy would differ depending on what your goal is (one time v. every time). |
| 14:14 | Ian | ...how close to automatic do you want to be? |
| 14:14 | Ian | ...my advice is to optimize for one-time conversion. |
| 14:14 | Ian | IJ: How many people here need to continue to author in HTML? |
| 14:14 | Ian | (no answers) :-) |
| 14:14 | Ian | JD: We do have other feedback from other document editors about the difficulty finding HTML tools. |
| 14:15 | Ian | PI: Great chunks of the MathML specs are being edited in XML. |
| 14:15 | Ian | +Eduardo Gutentag. |
| 14:15 | Ian | EM: Mention "xed" : syntax-directed XML editor (not necessarily validator). |
| 14:16 | Ian | ...if people are complaining about html tools, moving to XML might be easier. |
| 14:16 | Ian | NW: I'll make available xed port for Linux soon. |
| 14:16 | Ian | EG: I want a visual xsl editor. |
| 14:17 | Ian | Available xslt processors? |
| 14:17 | Ian | EM: xt will not be maintained. |
| 14:17 | Ian | EG: xalan (xml.apache.org) |
| 14:17 | Ian | NW: There are a few dozen tools. |
| 14:17 | Ian | EG: Oracle one. |
| 14:18 | Philippe | Ian: http://xml.apache.org/xalan/index.html |
| 14:18 | Ian | IJ: Are these available from xsl home page? |
| 14:18 | Ian | EG: No. |
| 14:18 | Ian | EM: Refer Dave Pawson home page. |
| 14:18 | Ian | ----------- |
| 14:18 | Ian | EM: My biggest concern is to come up with a canonical style sheet. |
| 14:19 | Ian | (for XMLspec direct publication). |
| 14:19 | Ian | NW: Along those lines, we have 3-4 XMLSpec style sheet developments in paralle. |
| 14:19 | Ian | ...I think that we should get these into CVS and harmonize efforts. |
| 14:20 | Ian | EM: There are cvs repositories for style sheet and xmlspec. |
| 14:20 | Ian | /XML/1998/06 you will find everything. |
| 14:22 | Ian | IJ: Editors' page. |
| 14:22 | Ian | (within the Guide) |
| 14:22 | Ian | EM: Yes, collect wisdom there. |
| 14:22 | Ian | IJ: comma tools. |
| 14:22 | Ian | Action IJ: I would accept an action to get a page in order. |
| 14:23 | Philippe | DOM: http://www.w3.org/DOM/Group/ednotes.html |
| 14:23 | Ian | ------- |
| 14:23 | Ian | Janet: I can talk to w3m about getting resources for tracking publication tasks. |
| 14:24 | Ian | Action Janet: Talk to w3m. |
| 14:24 | norm | JOIN |
| 14:24 | Ian notes /Guide/Reports as place for editors' knowledge. | |
| 14:24 | norm | Hi folks. (I can never tell which groups use IRC :-) |
| 14:24 | Ian | Hi Norm! |
| 14:24 | janet | Welcome, Norm |
| 14:25 | janet | http://www.w3.org/Guide/Reports/ |
| 14:25 | hugo | no: http://www.w3.org/Guide/Reports |
| 14:26 | janet | thanks for the correction, hugo |
| 14:26 | norm | Hugo, I get 404 for that URL |
| 14:26 | norm | nevermind |
| 14:26 | Ian | ----------------- |
| 14:27 | Ian | Action EM: Upgrade the XMLspec DTD in light of other flavors out there. |
| 14:27 | Ian | -------- |
| 14:27 | Ian | IJ: Problem that Guide/Reports is not public. |
| 14:28 | Ian | IJ: Any objections to making this info public? |
| 14:28 | Ian | Unanimous: Public is better. |
| 14:28 | Ian | ------- |
| 14:28 | Ian | Action everyone: send NW their style sheets and he will create a canonical version. |
| 14:29 | Ian | ..the XMLSpec style sheet for producing html and FO's. |
| 14:29 | Ian | Action NW: Munge all the flavors and put a single one into CVS. |
| 14:29 | Ian | Action HH: Talk to NW about using CVS.w3.org |
| 14:29 | Ian | ------- |
| 14:30 | Ian | Action EM and IJ: Talk about getting w3c editors to join spec prod (larger discussion). |
| 14:30 | Ian | ---------- |
| 14:30 | Ian | Do people want to meet again? |
| 14:31 | Ian | (no enthusiastic desire; will carry out discussion on the list). |
| 14:31 | Ian | ---------- |
| 14:32 | Ian | Discussion of "W3C plenary" for cross-pollination. |
| 14:34 | Ian | Deadline for action items: 4 weeks from today. |
| 14:35 | Ian | Adjourned. |
| 14:35 | SusanL | PART SusanL |
| 14:35 | hugo | PART hugo |
| 14:40 | maxf | PART maxf |
| 14:40 | Philippe | PART Philippe |