10:00 		*** Log started on 1999-12-03 UTC-0500 ***
10:00 [RRSAgent]	*** RRSAgent (swick@seahorse.w3.org) has joined channel #w3c
10:01 [larsga]	*** larsga (larsga@pc-larsga.infotek.no) has joined channel #w3c
10:01 [mjs]	Hello, also fairly new to mIRC, and IRC in general.
10:01 [sdo56]	*** sdo56 (sdorshan@unknown-40-162.beasys.com) has joined channel #w3c
10:01 [DV_]	mjs: hi, it's rather intuitive, no thick manual needed
10:01 [DanC]	ok... note well: this channel is logged: http://www.w3.org/1999/12/w3c-irc2409.html
10:02 [DanC]	better known as: http://www.w3.org/1999/12/w3c-irc2409
10:02 [DanC]	OK...
10:02 [DanC]	I'm Dan Connolly, of W3C, writing from Austin, Texas. Anyone else care to introduce yourself likewise?
10:03 [DV_]	Daniel Veillard W3C Grenoble, France
10:03 [StevenPemberton]	Steven Pemberton, Chair of the HTML WG, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
10:03 [mjs]	Mike Spreitzer, Xerox Palo Alto (California) Research Center
10:03 [janet]	Janet Daly, W3C/MIT
10:03 [CurtA]	Curt Arnold, AEA Technology Engineering Software- Hyprotech, Houston, TX
10:03 [Lew]	Lew Shannon, NCR, from sunny South Carolina
10:03 [jpsa]	John Aldridge, Cambridge, England.
10:04 [SusanL]	Susan Lesch, an XHTML onlooker in San Diego, California
10:04 [sdo56]	Scott Orshan, BEA Systems
10:04 [Al]	Al Gilman, W3C/WAI/PF, Arlington VA, USA
10:05 [Bert]	*** Bert (bbos@lanalana.inria.fr) has joined channel #w3c
10:05 [DanC]	Hi Bert; we've been introducing ourselves: name, affiliation, city where you're writing from.
10:06 [DanC]	So... I haven't really prepared an agenda; Any suggestions? Questions? What's on your mind?
10:06 [DanC]	Is anybody here hacking on XML tools?
10:06 [Bert]	OK, I'm Bert Bos, located in Sophia Antipolis (south of France), working for W3C
10:06 [henry]	Henry Thompson, University of Edinburgh and W3C, XML Schema structures editor
10:07 [DV_]	I got a question yesterday on taht channel, someone asked if this could be open on a continuous basis rather than during scheduled times (like telcon)
10:07 [Bert]	I'm expecting a phone call, so my attention to this window may be limited.
10:07 [DanC]	hm... need an ice-breaker.
10:07 [DV_]	IMHO this is better in IRC spirit to have a continuously open channel, but one need somewhat of a community to make it lively
10:08 [Bert]	Hi Daniel. I prefer asynchronous communication (e-mail)
10:08 [DV_]	Bert: for me both has advantage and drawbacks ...
10:08 [CurtA]	Anyone interested in talking about schemas?
10:08 [Al]	Apple pie: there is a place for IRC, Slashdot, email, and formal draft cycles.  Just have to discern what belongs where.
10:08 [DanC]	what about schemas, Curt? Do you have a question?
10:09 [CurtA]	curious about the upcoming changes to floating point data, dateTime, etc.  Are doc elements in the Dec16 draft, etc
10:10 [CurtA]	All without violating the W3C process.
10:10 [DanC]	Curt, I'm curious too! Hard to say what the Dec16 draft will say until Dec16.
10:10 [henry]	I can't speak about float, think that's in already (Nov 6), but doc will be coming, yes
10:11 [henry]	This is close to an issue we're still discussing, namely "How open to user additions should schemas be"?
10:11 [DanC]	Curt, do you have a particluar application you're trying to use schemas for?
10:12 [CurtA]	Modeling engineering systems (car parts, chemical plants, heat exchangers).  I build UML models, translate the XMI to XML Schema.  Unambigiuous definitions are vitally important
10:12 [henry]	Unambiguous in what sense?
10:12 [DanC]	unambiguous in what sense?
10:12 [DanC]	;-)
10:13 [CurtA]	Clearly documented so that others can build systems that don't do something like misinterpret the units and send spacecrafts plunging into the martian landscape
10:13 [DaveR]	*** DaveR (dsr@slip139-92-229-45.war.uk.prserv.net) has joined channel #w3c
10:14 [DanC]	Hi Dave. We've been introducing ourselves: name, affiliation, city where you're writing from today.
10:14 [DaveR]	Dave Raggett, W3C/HP, near Bath in the west of England.
10:14 [DanC]	Curt, I had an interesting discussion with somebody about ambiguity of dates; folks seem to write dates without timezones, but assume a timezone.
10:15 [Al]	I have experience with this, CurtA, we should talk at more length offline.
10:15 [DaveR]	This also crops up for expiry dates on credit cards in order forms.
10:15 [henry]	Right, well the issue of units is actually a tricky one, but in general the XML Schema language itself will define the meaning of only a modest part of its vocabulary, namely the simple string types such as float, timePeriod, etc.
10:15 [DaveR]	and is an issue for work on XForms - mapping presentation to internal data values.
10:15 [Al]	Dan, I think that Cowan and I covered that, perhaps in private mail.  Its a frames-based knowledge issue and there is a pretty clear model for it
10:16 [CurtA]	The processors don't need to be aware of it, but it does need to be clearly communicated the the developers of the systems.
10:16 [henry]	In particular, we do NOT currently envisage providing built-in measurement units
10:16 [henry]	So NASA still have to take responsibility :-)
10:16 [DanC]	It seems to me we should treat dates a little bit like floating-point numbers; 1.732 has some fuzz around it; 1999-12-03 should be seen a roughly 36 hour period centered at 1999-12-03T12:00Z
10:16 [Al]	There are post-processors that need to be aware, and operate on the XML-built DOM.
10:17 [CurtA]	I agree with that (and I've commented on that in the W3C comments list).  However, I need to provide that interpretation to developers through schema documentation
10:17 [Al]	For science and Engineering Aps, the extension path through schemata needs to be there to make precise your model of the fuzz.
10:17 [henry]	That's another good point -- as it stands the DOM still speaks only of 16-bit strings at the end of the day:  do people want/expect more than that?
10:20 [DanC]	DOM talks about 16-bit chunks as encoding strings, but they allow surrogates; all unicode characters can go through the DOM (as I understand it).
10:20 [DanC]	(hm... 36 hour or 48 hour? anyway...)
10:20 [Lew]	I have one...Where are the dependencies for fragments?  Is it a show stopper?
10:21 [CurtA]	I was thinking that a DOM that used type specific nodes (real nodes, etc) would be faster than allocating all those strings, however I was suprised that conversion to double was slower than string allocation.  I'm not sure on that.  However, I sure that a lot of my types of apps only use strings as a way to represent numbers
10:22 [larsga]	this is what is nice about untyped languages: this whole problem just disappears
10:22 [CurtA]	It just moves
10:22 [larsga]	I'm really looking forward to the combination of Python DOM and schema types
10:22 [larsga]	interface-wise it disappears
10:23 [mjs]	DanC: your frame is too small.  Sometimes a date is just a date.
10:23 [larsga]	shouldn't the frame size be app-dependent?
10:24 [Al]	The tolerance frame should only be spread if the locale in which the date is stated cannot be determined.
10:25 [CurtA]	Some of the problems that I had with dateTime was that you couldn't easily constrain it to the limitations of dateTime types widely supported.  If you allow the omission stuff in the ISO rep, you've got to be able to state in the schema that a date has to be a specific date
10:25 [Al]	I don't believe in "just a date" until you tell me what compare operations are required on dates.
10:26 [Al]	the ISO -mm-dd elliptical pattern is ambiguous, for example.  Has two interpretations of a repeat pattern day-of-the-year or day of context-supplied year.
10:26 [mjs]	Al: huh?  Date < Date; Date = Date; Date > Date.  Isn't that obvious?
10:26 [DaveR]	Does a date have to have a timezone?  How do I tell from a credit card expiry field e.g. "03/00"
10:27 [CurtA]	I think that you need to be able to require a time zone in a schema.  But without that facet, it can be omitted
10:27 [DaveR]	Sounds reasonable
10:27 [henry]	Folks, I feel like we're rat-holing a bit -- how about a non-XML Schema topic?
10:28 [DanC]	other topics are always welcome, but I don't want to squelch any discussion
10:28 [larsga]	ok, how do people feel about SML?
10:28 [mjs]	What about XML Simplification?  IS that being pursued anywhere?
10:28 [larsga]	that's what SML is
10:28 [larsga]	a proposal from Don Park on xml-dev
10:28 [mjs]	Yeah.  Sanctioned by W3C?
10:29 [larsga]	btw: I'm Lars Marius Garshol, STEP Infotek, Oslo, Norway (forgot that)
10:29 [CurtA]	STEP-XML interoperability might be a good topic for later
10:29 [DaveR]	SML raises the issue of variations across XML processors, e.g. validating or non-validating, but that is just the tip of the iceberg
10:29 [mjs]	What I meant is, is the W3C going to form a WG on it, or just see what develops on XML-DEV?
10:30 [DV_]	Well, IIRC such a "cleanup" was attempted, but we didn't got that much support
10:30 [mjs]	And do you folks think it is a good idea?
10:30 [larsga]	is it conceivable that if SML 'succeeds' the W3C will adopt it?
10:30 [DV_]	The problem is define what is in and what is not, and each application case may have a different boundary :-)
10:30 [DanC]	W3C has not plans to persue SML at this time; ironically, we *did* charter a WG to try it, but that WG (the XML Syntax WG) never reached consensus on requirements, so we dropped it. In short: been there, done that; good luck!
10:31 [DV_]	mjs: I did put my personal opinion on xml-dev, basically it's sound to define a subset so taht one can build and share tools
10:31 [mjs]	DanC: Yeah, I can imagine the SML effort going that way too
10:32 [CurtA]	I'm pessimistic on SML, but if Don and his disciples put together something reasonable, let them submit a W3C Tech Node
10:32 [DV_]	mjs: but it's hard to do a clean cut everybody will be interested into
10:32 [DaveR]	But that still leaves open the interoperability problems e.g. my xml processor does schemas but yours only does DTDs - do we need a profiling mechanism?
10:32 [DV_]	CurtA: s/Tech Node/NOTE/
10:32 [CurtA]	Expect misspellings at the end of a message, enter key is too close.
10:33 [DV_]	DaveR: that's why i also clearly state if SML accepted non well formed XML I would fight against it :-)
10:33 [CurtA]	to close.
10:33 [mjs]	Hey, some apps will only need a single fixed schema; some will need only a restricted class of schemas.  Those won't have interoperability problems.
10:33 [zurvan2]	*** zurvan2 (abryant@h00a02401c38d.ne.mediaone.net) has joined channel #w3c
10:33 [DV_]	mjs: what I'm afriad of is specialized stuff wich would not be reuseable by generic one
10:34 [Al]	The records the Aps create need to interoperate.  no Ap is an island.
10:34 [DanC]	I don't think we need a profiling mechanism; interoperability at the well-formedness is guaranteed; other stuff is layered on top. That's how I see it.
10:34 [mjs]	DV: Specialized software is OK.  Really.
10:34 [mjs]	Al: I'm assuming SML will be a subset of XML.  So an SML record would be understandable to a general XML processor.
10:35 [DaveR]	That does appear to be the intention
10:35 [larsga]	at the moment it's not a subset, though
10:35 [mjs]	The really scary thing is the multitude of schema languages: DTD, Microsoft schemas, W3C Schemas, ...
10:35 [CurtA]	Profiling of parsers I don't see the need for.  But it would be a good think, if an app could state that a) I accept documents that adhere to some schema but b) only those that have additional constraints like all country codes must be US
10:36 [DaveR]	Don't forget DCDs
10:36 [aki--]	*** aki-- (aki@ has joined channel #w3c
10:36 [CurtA]	How about the XSLT based validation proposals
10:36 [larsga]	seem rather complementary to the others to me
10:36 [DanC]	XSLT-based validation is an interesting idea; XSLT is turing-complete, so of course it could, in theory, support XML
10:37 [DanC]	... XML Schemas per se.
10:37 [larsga]	(btw, it's XPath-based more than XSLT-based, really)
10:37 [larsga]	I believe CurtA is thinking of the schematron, which uses XPath
10:37 [Waldbaer]	*** Waldbaer (koch@westerland.pixelpark.com) has joined channel #w3c
10:37 [CurtA]	There is another one too announced on xml-dev in the last few weeks.
10:38 [Waldbaer]	hi there
10:38 [DV_]	hi
10:38 [larsga]	CurtA: what's the name?
10:39 [CurtA]	My understanding is minimal, but I think they don't give you guidance on how to construct a document so something like Xeena based on schematron would be difficult
10:39 [mjs]	I'm interested in using schemas as one of several inter-converted ways of declaratively describing data (which are going to be authomatically converted based on that metadata); computation-based schemas look pretty unpleasant for that
10:39 [Al]	Yes, but the criteria should be in a standard KR like RDF.  (as opposed to active XSLT)
10:39 [Waldbaer]	:-) My name is Johannes Koch, an aerospace student in Berlin.de. I work at Pixelpark
10:40 [DV_]	Waldbaer: :-)
10:41 [Al]	What's best forum to continue date drivel?  I have more...
10:42 [CurtA]	I'd be up for more date drivel, maybe in another chat room or later
10:43 [DV_]	Al: why not here, unless others want to change topic
10:43 [DaveR]	No, dates are something I need to deal with for the XForms work at W3C
10:43 [Al]	My sense is Henry was right, not to devote this hour to that rathole.  But I want to know where we should take the thread.
10:44 [aki--]	*** aki-- (aki@ has joined channel #w3c
10:44 [DV_]	If someone want to raise another topic, just feel free to put it on the table, the chair (i.e. the IRC op) is a robot so he doesn't care :-)
10:45 [DanC]	another topic: Does everybody know how to find stuff in http://www.w3.org/ ?
10:45 [DaveR]	# Appears as ANNA
10:46 [CurtA]	I know how to find tech notes and process, but what other stuff (non W3C member)
10:46 [DV_]	CurtA: we have a generic search engine at http://search.w3.org
10:47 [DV_]	It does index all the Web site and the mailing-lists archives
10:47 [DanC]	does everybody know where to send feedback on specs? how to find the archive? (usually, we have the relevant links, but sometimes...)
10:47 [CurtA]	That is how I found the process docs, but you do need to know that something might exist before you search
10:47 [Al]	I have had mixed results with search.w3.org; probably need some way to get questioner-based META keys or some such.
10:47 [DV_]	CurtA: right
10:49 [CurtA]	Does the amount of public comment on the specs seem too much (or too unreasoned) or too little
10:50 [janet]	Some relevant comments arrive and are quite useful - some comment lists are rather quiet.
10:51 [janet]	And there are multiple fora (like xml-dev) where matters are discussed, but are not w3c lists per se
10:52 [Al]	I have been thinking about the Slashdot discussion engine as a friendly amendment to the way we currently communicate on Web engineering concerns.
10:53 [CurtA]	xml-dev is nice in that you get some feedback as to whether your idea has any value in persuing (or if anyone else is interested).  It is fairly rare to know if you are recovering stuff that the WG is already aware of or are talking heresy in the comment archives
10:55 [CurtA]	Any thoughts on adding back minimal list data types (decimals, reals, etc) to schema?
10:56 [DaveR]	(#G>10E@10M1) There is a big push to move to decimal arithmetic for ECMAScript, which will effect how people script apps
10:56 [DanC]	So... anything anybody needs before we wrap up? The channel will stay open indefinitely, but I'm not sure who will be watching after the top of the hour.
10:56 [DanC]	Curt, decimals, floats, and doubles are in the schema spec; they were never taken out.
10:57 [SusanL]	I'd like to know when XHTML is expected to reach recommendation or note. The HTML Roadmap says January, based on the last version.
10:57 [DV_]	CurtA: you think that installing the /. engine on a server at w3C and launching debate here would be useful ?
10:57 [CurtA]	Sorry, "decimals" not "decimal" a white space separated list of decimal values
10:57 [DanC]	ah! that's what you mean by list data types. Hm...
10:58 [larsga]	DV_: I think no. the interface is IMHO terrible. give me news groups any day.
10:58 [CurtA]	DV_: debate on what?
10:59 [Al]	Debate on: what's the real demand/requirement for 'validation' functions?
10:59 [janet]	CurtA: I think DV meant discussions
10:59 [DV_]	CurtA: W3C related activities, say last version of the xyz spec
10:59 [CurtA]	ECMAScript decimal: maybe as an option, but I really need to do float calcs
11:01 [DV_]	Al: for example
11:01 [Al]	People interested in date/time classes and XML reps for them stay in touch with DaveR c/o XML Forms.  OK Dave?
11:01 [DaveR]	(#G210E010M1) Sure
11:01 [CurtA]	Do you coordinate with schema?
11:02 [DanC]	Dave, did you see SusanL's question? XHTML is still expected to be done January-ish, right?
11:02 [DaveR]	(#G610E210M1) We expect to go to PR again very shortly for XHTML 1.0
11:02 [SusanL]	OK, thanks.
11:02 [StevenPemberton]	It has entered the cycle for PR already
11:03 [CurtA]	I put some comments on the schema comments list on dateTime.  I'll have to reread them again myself and have refined my thoughts since then too
11:03 [Al]	DV: see Megginson on why clients don't validate to content models on XML Plenary (part of number of namespaces discussion).  I mean trying to wrestle this divide to a We agree on X, we disagree on Y level of refinement.
11:04 [janet]	Please watch for an announcement on the document re-entering Proposed Recommendation.
11:04 [janet]	document=XHTML 1.0
11:04 [Al]	Does the log disclose emails of participants?
11:05 [DanC]	the log discloses whatever crossed the channel, only: http://www.w3.org/1999/12/w3c-irc2409
11:05 [CurtA]	We didn't do emails in our intro: I'm CurtA@hyprotech.com
11:05 [DanC]	I note RRSAgent is still around, and still logging; I'm not sure how long that will be the case.
11:06 [Al]	Sayonara
11:06 [StevenPemberton]	steven.pemberton@cwi.nl
11:06 [StevenPemberton]	bye
11:06 [SusanL]	Thank you all for being here. Good day!
11:06 [larsga]	larsga@garshol.priv.no
11:06 [StevenPemberton]	*** StevenPemberton (steven.pem@adsl-145-99-72-162.snelnet.nl) has left channel #w3c
11:06 [larsga]	/leave
11:06 [larsga]	*** larsga (larsga@pc-larsga.infotek.no) has left channel #w3c
11:07 [DaveR]	I'm off (a presentation to write), cheers
11:07 [DaveR]	*** DaveR (dsr@slip139-92-229-45.war.uk.prserv.net) has left channel #w3c
11:07 [DanC]	Thank you all for coming!
11:07 [DanC]	Any thoughts on doing this again sometime?
11:07 [DanC]	Perhaps on a different topic at W3C?
11:08 [mjs]	bye
11:08 [CurtA]	henry: still space on your tutorial on Sunday?  I haven't made my mind up yet
11:08 [mjs]	*** mjs (spreitze@phobos.parc.xerox.com) has left channel #w3c
11:09 [henry]	I don't know -- GCA is in charge!
11:10 [aki--]	DanC: I am interested in the World Wide Web accessible to mobile devices
11:10 [waxthenip]	*** waxthenip (hroi@jonazty.christiania.org) has joined channel #w3c
11:11 [DanC]	for the log: pointers to the CFP news:38457E5B.D018C9EA@w3.org http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Dec-1999/0139.html
11:11 [DanC]	ah... I'll look into that, Aki.
11:12 [ErikL]	*** ErikL (.@dialup- has left channel #w3c
11:12 [CurtA]	CFP?
11:12 [DanC]	Aki, have you seen the recent CFP for a workshop...
11:12 [DanC]	1999-11-17: Call for participation: Joint W3C-WAP Forum workshop on "Position
11:12 [DanC]	dependent information services". Deadline for position papers: 20 December, 1999.
11:12 [aki--]	DanC: Thanks :)
11:12 [DanC]	http://www.w3.org/Mobile/posdep-workshop
11:12 [aki--]	DanC: I will read it
11:13 [aki--]	DanC: I read it. Good to know. Thanks.
11:14 [Lew]	bye all cu next week
11:15 [Lew]	*** Lew (lew.shanno@ppp098.conterra.com) has left channel #w3c
11:16 [CurtA]	DanC: Austin, do you have an affliation other than W3C?
11:17 [DanC]	no, I'm W3C XML Activity Lead. It's what I do for a living.
11:17 [DanC]	see http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
11:17 [CurtA]	Nice place to do it.
11:17 [DanC]	I telecommute.
11:18 [CurtA]	henry: I think you post to the STEP-XML mail exploder.  What are your thoughts on migration of traditionally STEP domain problems to XML
11:20 [Waldbaer]	Why is XHTML1.0 back in WD status? What were the problems in the PR?
11:21 [CurtA]	Use of three namespaces seemed to be the primary reason dfor the veto (w3c outsider)
11:21 [DanC]	c.f.
11:21 [DanC]	Fw: XHTML 1.0 returned to HTML WG
11:21 [DanC]	Tim Berners-Lee (timbl@w3.org)
11:21 [DanC]	Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:33:41 -0500
11:21 [DanC]	http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Nov-1999/0106.html
11:22 [DanC]	Somebody referred to xml-dev as "not a W3C list, per se"; Just FYI: I see xml-dev as the primary public discussion forum for XML. I don't think it would be constructive for W3C to host a separate public discussion forum for XML.
11:22 [CurtA]	The three namespaces hinted at the need to distinguish between what a app can handle (i'm a minibrowser who can't do frames) and what a schema can express (I can express frames and more)
11:23 [CurtA]	I would be nice if this expression of "I'm an app that can't handle everything in this schema but..." be done in a consistent manner with schema.
11:26 [CurtA]	Leaving now, for those of you going, have a good time in Philly
11:26 [CurtA]	*** CurtA (CurtA@cs27107-230.houston.rr.com) has left channel #w3c
11:30 [jpsa]	Thanks for the invitation -- I'll be here if you do this again
11:50 		*** Log ended on 1999-12-03 ***