09:20 		*** Log started on 1999-12-09 UTC-0500 ***
09:21 [DanC]	Agenda: new syntax
09:21 [DanC]	Agenda: new Metadata Activity charter
09:21 [DanC]	(requested by TimBL)
09:23 [DanC]	NOTE WELL: this channel is logged (http://www.w3.org/1999/12/09-metadata-irc)
09:23 [RalphS]	9:00
09:24 [RalphS]	11:00 Karger & Stein
09:24 [RalphS]	12:30 lunch
09:24 [RalphS]	5:00
09:24 [RalphS]	Tim, DanC, Ora, EricM, Massimo, DanielL, EricP,
09:24 [RalphS]	DanBri, Ralph
09:24 [DanC]	RRS: background: Danny talked about a "semantic web development initiative" at the AC meeting http://www.w3.org/Member/Meeting/99AC/NovAC/Minutes/19991104PM.html#Technology
09:24 [DanC]	RRS: Agenda: let's talk about development opportunities
09:25 [RalphS]	+Marja
09:25 [DanC]	TBL: let's declare namespaces which are RDF models of existing specifications.
09:26 [ora]	*** ora (~ora@w3cdhcp2.w3.org) has joined channel #metadata
09:26 [DanC]	TBL: HTTP, ICAL (... IETF apps area stuff)
09:27 [RalphS]	EM: want to leave with some priorities
09:28 [RalphS]	... and associated names
09:28 [RalphS]	... and dates and venues
09:28 [RalphS]	DanC: venues; e.g. conferences
09:29 [DanC]	DanBri: "Cabal policy"; process for collaboration among team, etc.
09:30 [Janet]	*** Janet (~janet@ has joined channel #metadata
09:31 [eric]	*** eric (~emiller@w3cdhcp18.w3.org) has joined channel #metadata
09:32 [DanC]	"The Grocery List" 8
09:32 [DanC]	8 Dec 1999, Cambridge MA
09:32 [DanC]	-- RSS
09:32 [DanC]	-- DMOZ
09:32 [DanC]	-- Dublin Core
09:32 [DanC]	-- INDECS
09:33 [DanC]	-- IMS
09:33 [DanC]	-- Annotation: What's Related, Amaya developent discussions, XLink services
09:33 [DanC]	-- WEBDAV metadata
09:33 [DanC]	-- http://www.mozilla.org/rdf
09:33 [DanC]	-- mozilla sitemaps
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09:34 [MM-laptop]	*** MM-laptop (~massimo@w3cdhcp10.w3.org) has joined channel #metadata
09:34 [DanC]	DanBri: RSS: "Rich Site Summary"; drives Netscape's netcenter. Implemented in python; was going to be RDF, but then Guha and [?] left, and now it's just XML [and not even that, really]
09:35 [RalphS]	+Danny
09:35 [MM-laptop]	*** MM-laptop (~massimo@w3cdhcp10.w3.org) has joined channel #metadata
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09:36 [DanC]	TBL: one cool thing to is to build libRDF; the other is to use it as libwww; i.e. when somebody does an HTTP GET, you stick it into an RDF model and support "is this cacheable" as an RDF query
09:36 [eric-meet]	maybe an RDF interface to libwww?
09:37 [DanC]	[see also: RRS's stickies on the whiteboard]
09:37 [DanB]	When I talked to Dan Libby, RSS dropped RDF for plain XML due to lack of tools, lack of experience with RDF, no datatypes in RDF, etc etc.
09:38 [DanB]	Dmoz: see http://dmoz.org/rdf.html for RDF dumps
09:39 [RalphS]	http://www.dmoz.org/rdf/content.example.txt
09:41 [DanC]	RSS: http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/rss.html --> http://my.netscape.com/publish/help/quickstart.html
09:41 [DanC]	"Step 1: Design and Create Your RDF Site
09:41 [DanC]	Summary File
09:41 [DanC]	"
09:44 [DanC]	DanBri: Netscape has 4 divergent RDF apps: RSS, DMOZ, [?], [?]
09:44 [DanC]	DannyW: what does the epinions stuff look like?
09:47 [RalphS]	r:id should be r:about
09:48 [RalphS]	http://dmoz.org/Arts/
09:49 [DanB]	http://chefmoz.dmoz.org/ -- DMoz work in progress on restaurant reviews database. "idea is to use the DMoz model to build and distribute the data..."
09:51 [RalphS]	DCMI is in the process of creating a directory service; database of schemas
09:52 [DanC]	"Rose Drive Friends Church Home Page" -- http://www.rdf.org/
09:52 [DanC]	EricM: I'm in negotiations with rdf.org folks
09:53 [DanC]	EricM: we plan to support endorsement in our directory service
09:54 [DanC]	EricM: we need help with tools development; we're better at consensus building.
09:56 [DanC]	EricM: we're planning to annotate schemas als "foo:title is an rdfs:subpropertyType of dc:title".
09:56 [DanC]	EricM: we're securing social commitments to not changing URIs (and content)
09:56 [DanC]	... and high availability
09:56 [DanC]	...............
09:56 [DanC]	-- INDECS
09:57 [DanC]	EricM: this is metadata for E-Commerce and IPR
09:57 [RalphS]	http://www.indecs.org
09:58 [DanC]	EricM: timeline: about another year. EU funded
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09:58 [DanC]	EricM: their only application to date is MUSE (http://www.muse.com/)
09:59 [DanC]	INDECS="interoperability of data in e-commerce systems"
10:00 [DanC]	EricM: Dublin Core and INDECS have common needs: uniquely identifying people, orgs, places, subjects
10:01 [DanC]	EricM: INDECS folks have strong ties with the DOI folks
10:01 [DanC]	"Digital Object Identifier (DOI)" -- http://www.doi.org/
10:01 [DanB]	Entertainment Merchandise Interchange Standard (EMIS) is Muze's RDF/XML vocabulary that comes out of their INDECS implementation; DATAX is David Megginson's RDF semi-implementation in Java.
10:02 [RalphS]	http://www.doi.org/
10:02 [DanB]	(no URI yet for EMIS)
10:03 [Danny]	http://www.indecs.org/results/model.htm
10:05 [DanC]	Massimo: any relationship between INDECS and <a href="http://www.ebXML.org/">ebXML</a>?
10:06 [DanC]	TBL: we often say http://example.com/ora--wrote-->http://example.net/ but really, we mean "the person who's home page is X wrote the document available at Y". This is OK if you're clear in the schema, but...
10:07 [DanC]	... we should provide a schema that helps people get this right.
10:07 [DanC]	... another example: houses
10:07 [RalphS]	EM: can talk to organizations who do identify persons
10:08 [DanC]	EricM: how about targetting the people who are in the business of identifying houses
10:09 [DLL-lap]	TBL: We should develop a list of such orgs, contacts, etc.
10:14 [DanC]	DC: I want to show contributions of our own before we go knocking elsewhere too much.
10:15 [DLL-lap]	Something I am writing: http://www.w3.org/Team/1999/12/sw-w3c-projects.html
10:16 [DanC]	DLL: can we make this public?
10:16 [DanC]	DC: yes; c.f. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/sw99/
10:16 [DanC]	and rdf-interest
10:17 [DanC]	EricM: making this stuff public helps me, esp when folks are wondering if we're doing the right thing.
10:18 [RalphS]	*** RalphS (~swick@ has joined channel #metadata
10:18 [DanB]	Here's a note I started after a meeting with Ralph, DDL, Danny (...) http://www.w3.org/1999/11/SW/ "This document provides an informal overview of the W3C work currently known as the Semantic Web Development
10:18 [DanB]	Iniatiative.
10:18 [MM-laptop]	(Marja: add annotations to DLL's list)
10:19 [DanC]	........................
10:20 [RalphS]	DanC: make my own records smart;
10:20 [Danny]	sounds like haystack overlap
10:20 [RalphS]	... when the phone rings, tell me recent contact with the caller
10:21 [RalphS]	... palm pilot & quicken
10:21 [RalphS]	promote jigsaw & ACL stuff
10:21 [DLL-lap]	OK now use http://www.w3.org/1999/12/sw-w3c-projects.html
10:21 [DanC]	publish http://www.w3.org/Architecture/state as a paper
10:22 [RalphS]	Ora: build discovery services
10:22 [DanC]	(more on Dan's "make my records smart": http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/drafts/web-research.html)
10:22 [DanC]	(more on what dan wants to publish: larch stuff: http://www.w3.org/XML/9711theory/)
10:24 [RalphS]	DLL: annotations, searching
10:24 [eric]	eric: self organizing systems
10:24 [DanC]	DLL: I have a lot of experience with annotations. I'm interested in improving searching/navigation; self-organizing stuff, fuzzy semantics
10:24 [DanC]	DLL wrote http://www.w3.org/Team/1999/12/sw-w3c-projects.html
10:24 [DanC]	Massimo: look at RDF development cycle:
10:26 [RalphS]	Marja: annotations is low-hanging fruit
10:27 [RalphS]	Massimo: "xlogic"
10:27 [RalphS]	Marja: annotation tools for education
10:28 [DanB]	Own interests - main themes:
10:28 [DanB]	internet cataloguing community, annotations, trusted 3rd party
10:28 [DanB]	description (eg. librarians, medical experts) , better
10:28 [DanB]	(shared) bookmarking, data aggregation in RDF.
10:28 [DanB]	low hanging / urgent for RDF:
10:28 [DanB]	1. simple metadata bureau protocol (PICS Bureau++)
10:28 [DanB]	2. development of a deployment-led API in RDF Interest Group
10:28 [DanB]	3. datatypes, language tagging
10:28 [DanB]	4. architectural clarifications (URI/resource, content-neg'n etc)
10:34 [eric-meet]	short term: feedback on the current RDF parser/DB/browser suite
10:35 [eric-meet]	in http://www.w3.org/1999/02/26-modules
10:39 [eric-meet]	store acls and accompanying extra RDF in the persistent RdfDB
10:39 [DanC]	source is browsable: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/perl/modules/W3C/Rnodes/W3CAclInterface.pm?rev=1.93&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
10:43 [DanC]	RalphS: I still want to use RDF for CSCW stuff; better human-to-human communication.
10:43 [DanC]	... need tools for knowledge capture, ...
10:43 [DanC]	CSCW = "Computer Supported Collaborative Work"
10:43 [DanC]	... shared bookmarks may be low-hanging fruit.
10:44 [DanC]	[Dan wants to talk about: how I do shared bookmarks]
10:45 [DanC]	[Dan wants to talk about: how WEBDAV could be used for metadata bureau]
10:46 [Danny]	Most interesting aspect of machine-readable semantics to me is that it gives users more control over their interaction with the information space in which they participate. Design challenge magnified in mobile arena.
10:46 [Danny]	Social/political-economic challenge: what's the incentive to expose semantics, both of behavior and content?
10:46 [DanC]	RalphS: a lot of this overlaps with what the XLink community expects. I think if we don't act on that soon, we'll regret it.
10:48 [Danny]	Most interesting aspect of machine-readable semantics to me is that it gives users more control over their interaction with the information space in which they participate. Design challenge magnified in mobile arena.
10:48 [Danny]	Social/political-economic challenge: what's the incentive to expose semantics, both of behavior and content?
10:48 [DanC]	[[[
10:48 [DanC]	[08:51] <DV_> And while some reacted that I kicked the editors a bit too hard in my last mail Tim Bray now hope to have XLink last Call before the end of the year
10:48 [DanC]	]]]
10:48 [DanC]	8:51 -0600
10:50 [DanC]	I need to step out at 11amET for the XML Schema telcon.
10:50 [RalphS]	Danny: re: incentives -- PICS would have succeeded if there had been an easy way to charge for labels
10:51 [Danny]	1. Find compelling testbeds that have potential for organic growth.
10:52 [Danny]	2. Use W3C site - ACLs with XML Signature, P3P, content semantics
10:52 [Danny]	3. Integrate with Oxygen
10:52 [Danny]	4. Work with MIT Libraries
10:55 [RalphS]	Tim: architectural consistency
10:55 [RalphS]	new syntax
10:55 [MM-laptop]	[ in 4. talked time ago with Ann Wolpert (director of MIT libraries) about RDF and she was totally interested]
10:56 [Danny]	Note the connection between annotation/collaboration tools and other T&S activities like P3P
10:57 [RalphS]	Tim: clean up my contacts
10:57 [Danny]	To MM> Ann Wolpert continues to be interested.
10:58 [RalphS]	Tim: events
10:59 [RalphS]	threats: xlink, xml-dsig will produce too elaborate models
11:00 [RalphS]	Eric: same for xml query; divergent models
11:00 [RalphS]	Tim: leveraging existing specs, making them first-class objects in RDF space
11:03 [DanB]	re 'leveraging existing specs', WordNet was a fun example: http://xmlns.com/wordnet/1.6/Car http://xmlns.com/wordnet/1.6/Tree etc -- 1000s of RDF classes (when mapping's done properly)
11:07 [Danny]	+David Karger
11:07 [Danny]	+Lynn Stein
11:24 [RalphS]	http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/
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11:41 [RalphS]	haystack has a storage api -- useful to share this with mailto:www-rdf-interest@w3.org
11:41 [RalphS]	produce an RDF serialization
11:41 [RalphS]	Tim: want to share my "read flag" [seen bit]
11:50 [Danny]	DK: metadata can be created automatically (extracted) and will be correct 80% of the time
11:50 [Danny]	DLL: mapping enables the SW to leverage legacy metadata
11:51 [MM-laptop]	AND not only legacy.....
11:52 [DLL-lap]	... no matter how much we attempt to standardize formats and schemas.
11:56 [RalphS]	DK: separate organization from presentation
11:57 [eric]	eric: side note wrt automatic metadata generation: OCLC has been experimenting with this and we've found (roughly)  if we're anaylizing a known collection for which we tune our analysis we can achieve around 70-80% accuracy... this accuracy degrades significantly, however, when we analyse arbitrary objects/collections
12:10 [RalphS]	RRS: how does haystack handle quoting?
12:10 [RalphS]	DK: nothing is a fact
12:11 [RalphS]	every tie (statement) is first-class and other ties (statements) say things about it
12:13 [RalphS]	TBL: reification is impractical -- every statement needs to be reified
12:14 [RalphS]	OL: don't confuse the model with an implementation.  It is possible to implement the RDF model in such a way that every statement is first-clas
13:01 [DanC]	.............
13:01 [DanC]	resume
13:01 [DanC]	rathole on syntax
13:02 [DanC]	DC: I'm in favor of developing a new RDF syntax by way of solving application problems (e.g. DSig, P3P)
13:02 [DanC]	TBL: the benefit to DSig of a generic RDF syntax is that it makes it clear what you mean.
13:02 [DanC]	DC: no, it give you RDF triples, which they don't appreciate.
13:03 [DanC]	DC: If we give the DSig folks that checks signatures, they won't mind that it happens to generate triples too.
13:03 [DanC]	... if we give the P3P folks a tool that makes privacy decisions, they won't mind that it happens to generate triples too.
13:24 [DanC]	[... gap in scribe notes ...]
13:26 [DanB]	RDFS excerpt:
13:26 [DanB]	this specification introduces a number of other
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13:28 [DLL-lap]	Discussion on... RDF schema meaning of range constraints: does it validate or generate?
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13:38 [eric-meet]	TimBL: re schema consistancy checks: inconsistancy in a union implies falsehood
13:42 [DanC]	TimBL: pls edit the RDF Schema spec to stop using the word "inconsistency"
13:52 [Danny]	http://www.w3.org/Signature/Participants.html
13:53 [eric]	Naohiko URAMOTO (IBM),
13:54 [eric]	Naohiko was very interested in DSIG and a member of the RDF working groups
13:56 [DanB]	NewsFlash: Just heard Stanford are joining W3C and will be reworking the Protege-2000 as opensource RDF editor
13:57 [DanB]	http://www.smi.stanford.edu/projects/protege/protege-rdf/protege-rdf.html
13:59 [RalphS]	tools:
13:59 [RalphS]	API
13:59 [RalphS]	persers
14:00 [RalphS]	registry management
14:00 [RalphS]	schema creation GUI
14:00 [RalphS]	data entry/editing GUI
14:00 [RalphS]	long-range navigation
14:00 [DanB]	*** DanB (~danbri@ has joined channel #metadata
14:00 [RalphS]	long-range navigation (graph browsing) - someday pile
14:01 [RalphS]	validation
14:01 [Danny]	tools categories: infrastructure and apps
14:02 [RalphS]	juicy fruit:
14:02 [RalphS]	DSIG
14:02 [RalphS]	P3P
14:02 [RalphS]	Libraries
14:02 [RalphS]	ACL
14:02 [RalphS]	W3C Membership
14:08 [RalphS]	other tools:
14:08 [RalphS]	backend datastore
14:08 [RalphS]	robot
14:15 [Danny]	w3c membership/acl/dsig app should have generalized backend database strong/API for public use
14:44 [DanB]	Local installation of crit-suite for annotation, eg. http://crit.w3.org/http://www.w3.org/Collaboration/  -- is this good basis for SWDI demos?
14:49 [RalphS]	*** RalphS (~swick@ has joined channel #metadata
14:55 [eric]	http://www-diglib.stanford.edu/diglib/ginf/ GINF home page
14:56 [DanB]	http://www.w3.org/1999/11/SW/ -- DanC argued this should be mutated into briefing package
15:01 [Danny]	Action: make clear that the RDF IG is coordinating point for RDF tools open source community
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15:03 [Danny]	Propose that RDF IG do an interop every 6 months
15:04 [Danny]	Briefing package points:
15:04 [Danny]	1. dogfood
15:04 [Danny]	2. rdf ig as community coorditing point & regular interop coordinator
15:05 [MM-laptop]	Ora: in Darrpa there are TIE'S (Technology Interaction Experiments), could be useful here too.
15:06 [eric]	*** eric (~emiller@w3cdhcp18.w3.org) has joined channel #metadata
15:06 [ora]	TIE = technology integration experiment
15:09 [Danny]	registry mgmg tool: database, api (w/query), parsing rdf schemas annotation, gui interface
15:09 [Danny]	mgmg=management
15:22 [RalphS]	*** RalphS (~swick@ has joined channel #metadata
15:24 [DanB]	http://www.smi.stanford.edu/projects/protege/protege-2000/instances_tab.html -- eg of Protege GUI
15:32 [MM-laptop]	next meeting: Thu 16 Dec 9.30EST
15:32 [MM-laptop]	teleconference for 1 hour
15:33 [MM-laptop]	confirmed: eric, danw, dabri, ora, massimo, danl, ?timbl, ?henry
15:33 [MM-laptop]	danC will propose something to review at least 12 hrs before the call
15:35 [RalphS]	+confirm: ralph
15:36 [RalphS]	ACTION: Dan supply a proposal to review before 16 Dec
15:38 [MM-laptop]	3.40pm the meeting is adjourned
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15:47 		*** Log ended on 1999-12-09 ***